I have taken some images (attached) of a newer TVOne 1-TBC (bought in 2016 or 2017 I think), and it looks as if the circuit board design has departed a bit more from the CTB-100. Taken with a cellphone camera, with sub-optimal lighting and settings, so the quality isn't great.

This unit also have issues with locked fields (similar to what's demonstrated here here) (though it's a bit visually different, as the AVT the field, while on the TVOne (not sure how to best describe it) rolls instead of being frozen still (I might be able to provide video if there is any interest). I haven't noticed any deteriorated image quality from it as reported in the linked thread, though I haven't done checks with test images, so it's possible that the image defects are present in this one as well.

Correct. The 1T-TBC eventually also had the same problems as the AVT-8710/CTB-100. I've updated the post you've quoted with more updated/current accurate info.

The entire Cypress/AVT TBC ordeal ended quite sadly. No fix ever existed, simply a discontinued product. :(

Since Cypress/AVT serial numbers reflect the date of manufacturer, so only get TBCs made before 2010 to be safe. The AVT-8710 is green, the rarer CTB-100 is Smurfy-blue on gray (not muted blue on silver). Unfortunately, the 1T-TBCs never changed it's look, so it's not as simply as color. Must find/read the serial.

This might be nutty, but with all the gadgetry and 3D printers and electronic stuff, can someone with the correct knowledge actually build a TBC? Same for VCR parts, 3D printers? It's brave new world wizardry that might be applied to old world crappery?

I came across this the other day. It looks abandoned, but it suggests it's doable.

Electronics can't easily be built with 3D printers, especially not capacitors. Maybe the raw component boards can be printed, maybe a case (a flimsy one), but that's it.

Interesting. :hmm:

Your topic was moved here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr-...bc-memory.html

I came across another DIY TBC project here. This person is using the same A/D converter as the one in the AVT8710, with a slightly differend D/A chip and a different microcontroller. Interestingly he's using the 16-bit colour mode of the SAA7114H, while the AVT uses the 8-bit colour mode (from what I can tell at least).
So it seems like it would indeed be possible to create something using off-the-shelf parts.

Regarding 3D printers
 

My thoughts were 3D printing of rare or broken VCR parts, plastic armatures or gears, etc. Stock plastic or metal cases might be available for pennies with a little poking around. And am I wrong in thinking electronics of all sorts are available off-the-shelf for some clever under-grad to cobble together a TBC during lunch?

I'd buy lunch. :D

Connecting VCR to projector
 

Hi there,

Sorry to resurrect this old thread.
I'm a complete amateur and not interested in digitising VHS tapes, just projecting them through a digital projector.

Unfortunately some of my tapes are in bad condition, and the projector plays the video for a bit but intermittently shows 'no signal'.

Do you think a TBC could help me with this set-up?

Thanks

Max

For mere viewing, I'd look at using a Panasonic ES10/15 recorder on passthrough.
Try that first.

Is TBC worth the money?
 

I want to convert old VHS tapes to digital format .mp4, it can cost me 7$ with these cheap hardware (easycap usb 2.0), or 300$+ with TBC. is it worth the money?

Easycap is a bad device, lots of quality issues. There are better cards, including USB for Win7/8/10.

Acquiring quality hardware for quality transfer is almost always worthwhile. Why forever convert VHS to look terrible? If that's the case, why bother converting at all? A VHS tape can, and should, look better than the tape. Not worse. VHS has a lot of problems, most of which can be corrected with the right equipment. Or made worse with the wrong equipment.

Nearly all, if not al,l of the people who participate believe that it is worth the money - at least to them it is worth it.

But it all depends on how good is good enough for you (and also how bad your tapes and other gear are). Read the posts in this and other threads and forums, view the before/after exampls in many of the threads, and form your own opinion as to what will meet your needs. It is, after all, your tapes, your time, your money, and if doing this for others your reputation.

You can always try cheap, decide the results draw a vacuum, and then do it again the better way (provided the tapes have not been trashed by a bad VCR on the first try).

That statement makes it seem as if TBC is an optional item just to make tapes look better, but that's really not accurate. Analog signals, VHS especially, have flaws. Really, really bad flaws. CRT TVs were more forgiving, also being not-precise analog technology. But when you try to digitally acquire signals, precision is expected and required. And those not-precise/flawed signals cause problems. Not just visually, but in terms of being capture-able/ingest-able at all. TBCs fix the timing errors (the signal flaws, the imprecisions, the imperfections).

It's not an optional item. :no2:

Yes, there are some conditions where you can make passable capture/conversions without TBC, but it's not quality. There will be flaws. And again, some conditions, not all -- too many people think they're the exception, rather than the rule. Avoiding TBC is unlikely for most.

TBCs is a necessarily evil, a costly item. Always was, always will be. I remember grumbling when I had to buy my first TBC in the 90s. Then I saw what a difference it made. I grumbled less. :laugh:

Maybe I should have said; "How bad is good enough for you."

Yes, but now they're approaching the realm of "unreasonably expensive". The only decent ones for home video capturing are now $500 and up, and that price is only going to get higher. We're all going to be very screwed in the near future if no other new ones are brought to market.

If a TBC is so necessary, then we should come up with a project for people to be able to build their own TBC. This thread lists a number of projects that do just that, and I know a number of people here are experienced in electronic design. Perhaps you could solicit some help from the people here?

TBCs were always in the $500+ range (in 2019 dollars, or $400 in 2000-2005 dollars).

- Broadcast/rackmounts were $1k+ (not desirable anyway).
- A few studio-grade TBCs (from same makers as the broadcast) were in the $500-$1k range.
- The prosumer were almost all in the $450-750 range.
- The one exception was the Taiwanese maker Cypress, which had some sub-$400 prosumer units. Unfortunately, in an apparent effort to keep costs down low, actually reducing price over time (negative inflation), flawed chipsets were used, making the unit useless.
- Note that Cypress also had studio-grade units in the $500-$1k range.

The idea that a homemade TBC could be made cheaper than a mass produced unit, and be of equal quality, is flawed. And here's an example of why...

Most folks here don't know that my other hobby is action figures (which should make sense once they realize the reason I got into video was due to cartoon collecting). Not just action figures, but customizing figures. That takes a lot of time, and generally costs 10x+ as a mass produced figure. Yet the newbie misconception is that a custom figure should cost the same as the mass produced figure. So what happens is you'll find people on forums/Facebook whining about customizers "charging too much" when in reality they generally break even, and do it mostly as 1st-run practice for the custom kept for their own collection.

Another issue with TBCs is that it's not just about electronics know-how, but availability of parts. Realize that DataVideo and Cypress both left the TBC market specifically because the needed chips were discontinued. So that's a major problem preventing future TBC production.

There was a small window, years ago, when new TBCs were still available (though mostly EOL and NOS only), and used TBCs sold for the standard 50-75% new value. So, for example, you could get a TBC-1000 for $300 or so. But that didn't last, and was never going to last. It also coincided somewhat with the recession and post-recession market (2009, early 2010s), where there is a fire sale type of mentality (sell for whatever you can get, need cash now), combined with less buyers.

The biggest problem with buying a TBC is user mentality. Understand that it's probably not a "forever purchase" for most people. You don't buy it, use it, and then stick it in a box in the closet. It's a "project purchase". Buy it, use it, resell it. In the end, it's essentially a rental. You'll get most, or even all, of your money back on it.

It depends on where you live. It’s really hard to find any where I live.

This is why I ship worldwide, when offering TBCs in the marketplace. :wink2:

So are rackmounts like the JVC SA-T100 no good? I.DEN IVT-7 ?

I'm assuming Fortel Y-688 is useless.

Those things look ancient. They were used with U-Matic VCRs which had these special Dub connectors (big ones with lots of pins if you google) which could transmit the raw color signal from the tape. In addition they did stuff like drop-out correction, with the help of RF outputs on the VCRs. I doubt they would be very usable for VHS tapes but I could be wrong. Looks like they require a VCR with external sync input as well.

Cool I guess I figured as much ... is that referring to the first two as well, or just the last one

Just the Fortel one. The others seem a bit more modern, don't know much beyond that, maybe others here know more.

JVC SA-T100 has zero information online. And since I don't recall JVC external TBCs at all in the past 25 years, I'm guessing it's older than dirt, and completely useless.

Fortel Y-688 is useless, ancient tech for U-matic decks. I'm not an U-matic expert, but I'd be surprised if this had any modern usefulness.

The biggest problem with tech this old, and from broadcast facilities, is it's almost always in disrepair and out of maintenance. Expect major problems.

I.Den IVT-7 can be a decent, but you must realize it's not a plug-and-play unit. These need to be calibrated, and it's not an easy task. And if you don't have either an oscilloscope, or another known-good TBC to compare it to, or both, then no way to calibrate. It's large, deep, and has sharp edges. The fan must be re-wired/modified inert (or removed), as the bearings are almost always out by this late date, and it was never quiet to begin with. I had one, and sold it earlier this year. Although my unit was eventually repaired into a good state, it's not something I'll ever mess with again. If that person ever decides to sell my former unit, hoping that it was taken care of, it'd probably be the only IVT-7 unit I'd say is fine.

TBC repair is becoming more rare than VCR repair.

Honestly, this is TBC dumpster diving. :blink:

And this is the exact reason why I started guides on what a TBC is, what it should do, and which models to get. Because it's not as easy as seeing those 3 magic letters on a device.

Are TBC's, Video Processors, and Digital Video Convertors the same thing?

No.

TBC is time base corrector, and is a loose term. There are many types of TBCs, including TINOs (TBC in name only). For example, line and framesync TBC do completely different things. And then sources matter, so some work perfectly with consumer sources (VHS, etc) while others are disasters.

"video processor" is a generic term that could mean anything. (Sometimes the item does contain TBC, but usually not.)

"digital video converter" is a generic term that could mean anything. (Sometimes the item does contain TBC, but usually not.)

Reason I am asking is because I saw quite a few Video Processors and Digital Video Convertors that look similar to TBCs. Some look identical to TBCs and some even have the advanced TBC features like color, saturation controls etc.

Anyway do I need a TBC if I have Panasonic AG1980 with TBC -> Panasonic VCR with Line-in NR on -> Diamond VC500 -> VDub

If so what is your suggestion for TBC?

And yet, that all means nothing.

Cypress also manufactured cases (to my knowledge), not just the inner boards. Both boards and cases were sold under Cypress brands, and to rebadgers. So you may see a Cypress case with non-Cypress internals, or Cypress boards that do not contain TBC. Making matters worse, documentation for both TBCs and non-TBCs were horrible. I've come across items that make zero mention of TBC, yet have it. And then other items claim TBC, but none exists.

DataVideeo had their own internal generic cases, for use with many products, not all of which were TBCs. It cuts down on production/design/R&D costs this way.

Fun, huh? Buying TBCs has an element of gambling, often costing $100s to play. :screwy:

^ This is why I do what I do. I take the mystery out of finding known-working TBCs. :cool:

Yes. You lack framesync TBC, which is required for capture. Line TBC alone rarely suffices.

That is generally a capability of a proc amp (processing amplifier). They typically enable adjustment of black level, gain, saturation, and hue (aka: brightness, contrast, color and tint). Many video processors include proc amp features, as do some video digitizers.

But as lordsmurf pointed out gear comes in all flavors and varieties. Thus some TBS also include proc amp capability.

You will encounter a wide variety of additional names for video gear, such as mixer, effects processor, stabilizer, frame synchronizer, distribution amp, edit controller, video switcher, and so on. One has to read the fine print to determine what its capabilities are supposed to be, and research actual performance to assess whether or not is appropriate to the task at hand.

The AG-1980 contains an internal line TBC. Depending on the tape you will need a frame TBC as well. In my experience a few, but not all, tapes do OK without the frame TBC.

A typical connection would be AG-1980 -> frame TBC -> capture device.

Not all tapes play back the same. Try various combination of TBC on/off and NR on/off to see which gives you the best results with any given tape. If you are attempting to digitally archive a copy protected VHS tape (e.g., Macrovision protected) a TBC will most likely be needed.

If you are considering buying an AG-1980 be aware of the surface mount capacitor failure issues. Look for models that have been re-capped. eBay and other auction side offerings are at best a crap shoot with the odds against you.

There are separate threads that discuss the better TBC options.

Actually I really have no intention of digitizing copyrighted material. I am just using that as a test tape. There will be nothing to worry about if that tape gets ruined. I already have an AG1980 and I already recapped it.

Is Faroudja Picture Plus NR Series Digital Video Processor DCDi a TBC? If so is it a good brand?

I showed Faroudja DVP3000 here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...on-screenshots

It claims "10-bit Adaptive color decoding with Time Base Correction" in the summary and "Two-Line Time Base Correction" in detail: http://www.curtpalme.com/docs/DVP3000_Brochure.pdf

It's pretty disappointing, IMO. You're better off with a decent DVD recorder as passthrough.

Did you use the same VCR on all the samples and if so which VCR did you use? The Faroudja DVP3000 seems like it did a decent job with one problem. The picture seems like it is too bright making it difficult to tell how good of a job it did. For the Panasonic did you use the line TBC with another VCR playing the tape?

All of those samples were played back on Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U with its DNR&TBC function disabled.

I also took one camera shot of this frame played on a Samsung LCD HDTV; that one used a different VCR. I think I posted that on the German Gleitz forum and didn't include it in this VH thread.

Open the Panasonic DMR-ES25 image and the DVP3000 image in different tabs and use the keyboard combination CTRL key and + key (hold CTRL then hit = key) on both until they are at 200%. With DVP3000, both left & right edges of the sign, as well as the tall vertical part of the building in the background, are wavy.

No. What you're seeing is the Panasonic's own external line time base correction when presented with the same signal as the others.

Now I see it.

Maybe I should try my Panasonic DVD Recorder VCR Combo which from what I read also has a line TBC with my AG1980 playing the tape. But from what lordsmurf is telling me that kind of setup is still no match for VCR with TBC and an external full scale TBC.

What about Leitch DPS-235 TBC? Is that good TBC?

Just wanted to clarify, when you say UPS, do you really mean one with a battery backup, or merely "high quality surge suppressor?"

I ask because I have several high-end line conditioners that suppress surges and output perfect sine waves, but lack a battery backup.

No.

Moved here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...s-mx1-tbc.html

Battery backup surge protector (usually known as UPS).
Yes, there are variations to this term. Not too different from how "TBC" has variations (line, frame, framesync, etc).

I understand that an internal TBC is a line TBC and and external TBC is a frame TBC. Are there any external TBCs that do both?

I see TBC boards for sale on ebay. These boards were pulled out of VCRs that probably failed beyond repair. Can these boards be used in anything other than as spare parts for the exact same model?

No.

Exception: I think I've observed this on the rare CDM-1200. But the line timing results in some "vertical jitter" (layman jitter) offset, so it's still not perfect. And I've only seen it with a few specific PAL tapes. This was a recent discovery, and I plan to look at it more when I find PAL time. I need to recreate the scenario. Te 1200 was be used as a constant against another TBC, with PAL domain footage. This was an unintended observation that merits further investigation.

No.

I see that some AVRs such as the Onkyo tx-sr603x, tx-sr703x, and tx-sr803x have built in TBCs. Would these be line or frame TBCs? Do they do a good job?

And since these AVRs have analogue inputs and HDMI outputs, I was wondering what the quality of these conversions is compared to other capture hardware recommended in this forum.