Using TBC and video still tearing?
 

I have a Mitsubishi HS-U747 S-VHS player and trying to convert some old VHS tapes I have had lying around into digital files on my computer. The S-Video out on the Mitsubishi is going to the input of a datavideo TBC-1000 and then svideo out to a Canopus ADVC-110 and then into the firewire on my computer. If I play the video without the TBC screen "looks" fine. However the video does not seem to update all the time on my screen. Like it's locking up even though the VCR shows the tape keeps being read thru. If I put the TBC in line it plays fine then, but has visual tearing on the top left and right side and then straight across the top of the screen. Any fixes for this or thoughts or is the tapes just toasty?

Thanks.

JR

What's your capture software, and is it reporting dropped frames without the TBC?

A frame level tbc won't repair frame tearing. It's caused by line sync errors. You need a line tbc.

msgohan, I'll get back to you shortly. Just cleaned the heads of the S-VHS and want to make sure they are dry. Sure the alcohol dries quick but better safe than sorry.

For reference using MS Movie Maker 2012 on Windows 8 to pull content into DV.

-- merged --

Thanks for the reply sanlyn. And crap. Assume my DVD recorder could resolve this but gave it to my dad who's in a home to use to watch movies. Wouldn't dare take it away from him. Will assume my Sony Camcorder wouldn't work (http://store.sony.com/interchangeabl...pfm%3Dcategory). Think it only has outputs. Hopefully I can find an alternative without buying something or just trim off the top of the videos to get ride of it but not optimal.

JR

Tearing or not, VHS still has line sync errors. Always. You might still need a frame tbc for other issues, but it's the wrong tool to correct in-frame line timing.

you need a VCR with a built in TBC for that - like an AG-1980
some Panny DVD recorders might help - like the DMR-ES10

Does your dad use it to record too? If not, maybe replace it with a low cost DVD player.

Yep. He uses it like a digital VCR. Has built in hard drive and coax antenna input. Records shows based on setting time of day instead of having a digital guide (no internet there). Plus watches shows on DVD that we bought him. It's the center of his life. :)

I'm going to try a few things with my cables and see if switching from S-Video to RCA cables does anything or any other changes help or not. I also have a booster/splitter AV61 (http://www.xantech.com/audio/avdistr...ribution/AV61/). Not sure if putting that after the VCR will help. Assuming the problem won't be fixed unless it's fixed within the VCR?

May try one of the suggested VCR's if I can justify buying one to backup 15 VHS taps and then never use it again. Ugh...

One question. Is this issue something to do with the age of the tapes? Trying to understand why this happens and obviously from reading not the only one who has had this issue over the years. Obviously at some point just playing these tapes to a TV wasn't an issue.

Thanks.

JR

don't use composite (RCA) -S-video is way better
also that canopus device is going to butcher you colors - an ATI card would be better
with only 15 tapes it would probably be cheaper/better sending them out for conversion

Tell me about the color. Only positive outcome of it is that I have done extensive work self teaching on color correction with Adobe Premiere Pro. Lot of fun!!

I was thinking of using the composite connectors to see if it made any difference with the tearing but guessing it won't make a difference.

JR

Your dad is sharper, technology wise, than most!

Is the tearing in the overscan area by any chance?
Is this an original tape, or a copy?

As noted above, for 15 tapes it may be more economical (and faster to the end result) to send them out. Unless of course this is a hobby and you are in part doing it for the fun of the process.

The AV61 looks to be a distribution amp with no signal processing or sync shaping, so it is unlikely it would provide any benefit. Further it appears to be composite only so you would lose the benefit of s-video.

To me it's more a hobby than anything else so would probably opt not to go to a pro to convert the content. Limits my learning. Content is not super important but I tend to be a perfectionist so like to do the best job I can. Really enjoy all things digital especially around Photoshop editing, Sony Vegas, and Premiere. Editing, cleaning, converting, streaming. Spend at least 3 hours a day playing with different kinds of content.

I did attach two images from my export. One is the original and the other is VLC deinterlacing the image in case the interlacing in the picture makes things hard to see.

Note this is an image from a VHS tape in my Mitsubishi S-VHS thru the TBC-1000 and into the ADVC-110 and out thru the firewire into my computer. Then recorded by MS Movie Maker 2012 as DV content.

JR

Hm. Interesting comments, JR.

In what way? It would seem to be the opposite, one would think. Whatever.

Putting limits on your learning won't get you there. The equipment and methods you say you use don't compute with the perfectionist bit. The ADVC 100 is far from perfection. So is capping analog tape to DV. Your images show ragged borders that ripple during play, vertical edges are ragged or fuzzy (both of which a line tbc would help fix), and one sees the usual DV compression artifacts from analog capture. The frames' side borders, not counting the tearing and top-end distortion, are bent to the right near the top.

Unless your object is posting to the internet, most DVDs are interlaced. So are most commercial 1920x1080 HD and 720x480 SD BluRay/AVCHD except for a couple of frame formats and film-based originals. Your VLC player and most other media players deinterlace or de-telecined on the fly, the same way your set top players and TV do. If you see interlace combing in VLC player, maybe you limited your learning to not setting up VLC, which doesn't deinterlace by default. Something like MPC-BE would make a better player.

The top border tearing can be fixed with a decent line tbc. No way around it. Below are links to two demos of pass-thru line tbc work I made about 8 years ago. The pass-thru I used has since been replaced with a better one, and the VCR I used (Panasonic PV-8661) is also replaced. But at the time they worked pretty well with less damaged tapes. The VHS tape in question was abused with over-enthusiastic stop/start/replay playback, and dirty, noisy, and physically damaged. I made a better version a couple of years later, but these demos are from the half-finished originals that still needed more cleanup. The demos aren't the final version.

The links below are to a paid, secured site. No popups. No ads. Decent download speed.

A_Sample2_bad.mpg (24MB) was capped without a tbc. The frame is reduced slightly so the disturbances wouldn't be partially masked by overscan on my nephew's CRT.
https://www.mediafire.com/?8jgwn0cvzs7s059

B_Sample2_fix.mpg (22 MB) used a pass-thru TBC. The pass-thru was a Toshiba RD2 DVD recorder. Still some imperfection at the very top, but I got stronger tbc's since then. The cheapo DR2 was better with cleaner tapes. The only denosiing was MCTemporalDenoise but it still needed more work, as you can see, including some composite dot crawl. My frame-level tbc wasn't used here.
https://www.mediafire.com/?5e4kj1350qxk68r

I have an AG-1980, but this tape is so old and awful I'm afraid I'd damage the heads with it. I made a cleaner and smoother version with a Pansonic PV-S4672 and Panny ES15 pass-thru later. Capped with an ATI AIW 9600XT to huffyuv losssles AVI. In the past I capped VHS a couple of times to DV. Learned my lesson fast. I'll never do it again.

It'll give you an opportunity to learn how to repair dot crawl, chroma upsampling errors and mosquito noise, the latter a hallmark of VHS capped to DV with composite cables.

Partly to bad tape. Mostly because digital encoders don't see your tapes the way your TV does. But even on TV, sync-error ripples will still be there.

ED: As for the above demo tape, the original was recorded at 6-hour EP speed on cheap tape.

And I made a boo-boo (no surprise). Your images show side borders that are slightly warped to the left toward the top, not to the right as I stated. Sorry. That's the result of line sync errors. A frame level tbc won't fix it.

Sorry for the delay, I am doing a conversion right now without the TBC that had the tearing on the top. sanlyn has provided me some great input I'm reading thru now however without the TBC picture looks perfect or as much as VHS can. I am seeing jerking movements, or what would look like a temporary lock up, while recording in the preview window. Using WinDV right now instead of the MS app. Not showing any dropped frames but not sure what WinDV considers dropped frames. When it's done converting will be interested to see if during all those "pausing" segments if it's stuttering or whatever.

One interesting thing about WinDV. My hard drive is about 60% utilized while recording. With MS Movie Maker it's always at 99%.

-- merged --

Verified. Without the TBC the picture is OK but it jumps (skips) whenever there was a hang in the preview window. So looks like the TBC allows the video to play thru in it's entirety but causes all kinds of visual artifacts however without it I get a video that looks acceptable but jumps a lot.

JR

What are the "jumps"?
Missing frames (e.g.,a blank frame)?
Skipped frames (as if one frame was cut out)?
Frames that look as if the scan started in the wrong place on the screen (to high or low)?
Loading the capture into your NLE and stepping through the problem point one frame at a time may help.
Is the capture audio OK?

Are the problem tapes recorder original (first generation), or copies?

I'll check on this and get back. Computer I record to has no working speakers so have to transfer it elsewhere to edit/listen.

Question on the line based TBC. A friend of mine has an LG DVD recorder. He is looking for the model. Would that work for a line based TBC? Do all DVD Recorder units work?

Thanks.

JR

Have you tried another VCR to see if it plays the tapes correctly? Usually a unit with a slightly different alignment will work with problem tapes.

Probably not. Most don't work as pass-thru, and a scant few of newer units have puny circuitry of little use. The best of the pass-thru units were made up until 2005. After that, forget it. Panasonic is the favorite with its ES10 and ES15. TBC pass-thru in the ES20 is too puny to fiddle with, it's tantamount to nothing. Coming in second, the Toshiba "RD" and "RD-XS" series circa 2002-2005. SONY, Pioneer, and pricey multi-format AIWA high-end HDD units were decent, but none of them work as pass-thru. Any and all DVD/VCR combo units are out of the game.

He sent me a pic and it has a S-Video out but no input. Only composite input and don't want to be switching per other comments here.

JR

Hmm, no s-video. Not unusual for a budget DVDR.

TBC-equipped VCR's like the AG-1980 are pricey in good condition or rebuilt. AG's sold by a handful of reputable tech shops start at about $400. That's quite an outlay for 15 tapes. Those tbc prosumer decks do have one downside: you're tied to their dnr/tbc circuitry, which ain't often friendly with some tapes. Disabling the tbc/dnr defeats the purpose of using the player. An ES10 or ES15 goes for under $100 these days. They're starting to get hard to find, too. Owning one doesn't tie you down to any single VCR. Your Mitsubishi would work with it. Even with a composite-only player, the ES10/ES15 has a decent y/c comb filter and s-video converter to clean up dot crawl. In most cases they ignore Macrovisio0n when used as pass-thru.

A couple of months ago I posted examples of a composite-only, non-tbc player and bad VHS retail tape used with an ES15 pass-thru. The links posted earlier show playback problems without a line tbc. The samples posted below didn't have tearing, but they had the wiggly edges and warped border glitches seen in the earlier links. The caps below were made with the ES15 connected and no full-frame tbc -- as you can see, the ES15 as pass-thru ignored Macrovision on this tape. It also subdued composite dot crawl and a lot of the usual composite color bleed and noise. These are noise and damage repair samples. But they show how a non-tbc player can look with a pass-thru tbc.

The first two before/after samples are edits of shots with strong color flicker in bright areas. Anti-flicker filters work only on luma, so I had to play some tricks with Avisynth. The tape has motion noise in shadow areas, but the pass-thru stabilized noisy composite edges and made the noisy grunge easier to clean. The demo has edits of 2 shots.
A_flicker_samples_original.mpg
B_flicker_samples_after.mpg

Links "C" and "D" are examples of other damage control. There are 4 short scenes. Besides horrible color that varied from scene to scene, there are spots, gigantic blotches, projector punch holes, chroma bleed, dark halos, white stringy stuff on faces in one shot and whitish flareups, the usual tape noise, etc. "D" is the clean-up.
C_defect_samples_original.mpg
D_defect_samples_after.mpg

The capture card was an ATI 7500 AIW to huffyuv lossless AVI.

I'm going to try and snag an ES10 or 15 off eBay. Probably a 15 as there is only one 10 out there now. I'm going to be shot for this if I win a bid on one that is low enough for me to accept. Especially since the whole thing that spawned this recent video archival was to clean out the basement. Buying another piece of equipment is the reverse of that. :)

Looks like this unit is capable of being a video recorder for broadcast TV also. Doesn't look like it supports a hard drive though (only direct to DVD) so wouldn't be a viable replacement for what my dad is using should his fail (trying to minimize the griping of this purchase).

JR

I haven't made a bid on eBay in years. Got tired of the maniacs who run auto bidding software that antes up the bid at the very last second, just enough to win by a dollar or so. Even if you're watching, it changes and shuts down so fast you don't have time to compete. I've always looked for BuyItNow, even if I have to wait around for one to show up. Buy it Now usually has sellers who know what the equipment. Read carefull;y. If they're also selling trailer hitches and dishware on the side, they could be throwing anything out there. Deal with them, and you could do better at a yard sale.

Not much difference between the ES10 and ES15. You'll need a remote if it doesn't come with one (many don't). Remotes are often sold separately at absurd prices. I found one on the net, OEM for about $20.

Turn off the panny's playback DNR: it's too strong, and there are better filters in software. TBC is active only on the Line 1 input on most units. That might differ on later production models, but use Line 1 to be certain. Really, if you use a non-tbc input you can certainly see the difference. I never cared much for the way it records. My Toshibas are cleaner, use a different encoder, and you can set their bitrates in 2K increments. I've had my ES15 for 2 years now. I use it only for TBC.

Wait til you end up with 5 VCR's (LOL!). Well, with only 15 tapes you won't get that far. I started with over 400 hours of tapes.

Saw an ES15 on ebay earlier today, auction ends in around 2 or so hours, it was at $20 a few minutes ago, but that was from an automatic bid so no idea as to where the limit is.

The catch - the seller appears to be a surplus dealer who does ebay auctions of government surplus. The listing did not tell anything about the condition of the unit beyond "USED." The "Buy It Now are in the $100 to $120 range. But I have not checked recent bidding history results.

Thanks sanlyn and dpalomaki for your comments. I'll check out BuyItNow. I saw the $20 on eBay but the seller never got back to me before it ended. Besides no remotes, a lot come with no power cable either. "Well we tested it and it turns on but no remote or power cable included". Huh? Not buying one that doesn't have the rights stuff. There was one for $15 which again didn't hear back on what was included from the seller, however was broke. Said the DVD wouldn't eject. Was thinking that's no big deal for what I'm looking to do but HELLO YOUR SELLING SOMETHING. ANWER YOUR BUYERS QUESTIONS!!!!

Also with the ES15, sanlyn you mentioned only use input 1. I assume input 2 is on the front as only see one input on the back.

By the way, is buyitnow supposed to be buyitnow.com? Doesn't come up.

JR

there is a ES-15 for sale with a broken dvd drive in the marketplace cheap
you will only want it for the pass-through so the dvd drive wont matter

Thanks for the tip. I contacted the seller and it doesn't come with a remote or power cord but said he could include the power cord. Will assume one of my Logitech universal remotes will work and won't need to buy one. Now have to wait 6 days for the auction and if the price goes up will probably not purchase it. Can get fully functioning ones for $25 (possibly without power cord).

JR

The ES15 sale this afternoon went for $40.05 to what may have been an automatic winning bid.
"For parts" units are going for around $15 to $25.
Remotes controls for around $7 - $8.

"Buy it now" is a category on e-bay - no bidding and immediate sale if you want it at the named price.

what i meant what one of our forum members has one posted for sale in the marketplace on the forum
they have not marked it sold so it may still be available:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/mark...sonic-dmr.html

I'll check on this. Marketplace guy says he wasn't looking to ship from Canada to the US though so will see. Another guy offered $59 (includes shipping) to sell me a ES15 fully functioning with power cord (no remote). Hmmm....

JR

ES10 remotes are what, about $8 or so with shipping, on ebay.

Thanks. Not super concerned about the remote. I have a couple Logitech universals so sure those will work just to make sure it's setup however it's setup. Mulling over if $59 is fair for my planned use or not. :)

JR

Shipping to/from Canada really isn't an issue. I have sent/received packages in the past month without a problem (both were handed by USPS/CanadaPost). Have you tried another VCR to see if it reduced/eliminated the tearing?

Yeah, Canada isn't really my issue but looking a bit deeper, seller said shipping was like $32 his cheapest option from there.

Unfortunately only VHS player I have. Thought I was done archiving VHS tapes years ago so purged them all except the S-VHS deck I kept for never know what sake. Then in the cleanup found a drawer of old videos in the depth of my crawlspace. The TBC-1000 was adequate to move the content last time, apparently the age of the tapes has caused additional hardware to be required in-line. Or that's the current going theory.

-- merged --

OK I ordered a ES15. Fingers crossed it will work. It was mentioned needing the remote I believe. Will not have one but again assuming the universal will work. That said, other than turning on the unit, is there something i need to configure to get the TBC to work that I actually need a remote? I couldn't find anything in the user manual about configuring anything but maybe it's one of those settings they don't call out.

JR

Some of the default settings might work, some might not without a real remote. Depends on what your universal can do. For tape capture you'll have to set the TV screen to 4:3 and turn off playback noise reduction. Both are in the internal menu.

Beauteous. Thanks sanlyn. I'll report back when I get the ES15 and how it fairs.

JR

Basic universal remote or Harmony? I was never able to find a basic remote with a properly mapped Setup key (Menu isn't the same thing). You may need to get into Setup to ensure that black levels are correctly set.

To turn off Line-In NR, a Display key is required. That should be fairly standard.

The ES15 needs keys for Setup, Display, Return. If you don't have a remote from the same production series that came with the DVD-R, on first bootup you'll have to enter a numeric "Set Code", which is usually 2 or 3. Since the Harmony has to be set up over the internet (what a pain in the butt), how to get that code function programmed might be confusing. Probably not difficult, though. The OEM remote uses the regular keypad numbers.

Thanks. I have a Harmony 900 remote. It does list the ES15 however was suggesting using the original remote to complete missing items. From what I can see it has Setup and Menu commands mapped, or shows something for those keys, so am hopeful it will work. Also have a Harmony 880 but assume they would have the same commands available.

EDIT: I also found some generic hex codes for Panasonic DVD recorders but not sure if there is a way to pass those to the Harmony remote or not.

-- merged --

So assuming my Logitech remote works with the ES15, I assume my workflow or order of devices would be:

1. Mitsubishi HS-U747 S-VHS VCR
2. S-Video Out and In on
3. Panasonic ES15 (Input 1)
4. Svideo out and then in to
5. DataVideo TBC-1000
6. s-video out and then in to
7. Canopus ADVC100
8. DV out to Firewire in on computer

Thanks.

JR

The setup looks OK. Youi might not need the TBC-1000, but try a short cap of a few minutes rather than a whole tape so you can check things out.

Hate to see VHS going into an ADVC-110 and DV but, well, many do it that way and live with it. I couldn't, but that's just me. Let's see what happens first. Cap a few minutes and you'll have some samples to submit for evaluation. Usually a few seconds of sample will suffice for DV, but get a few minutes that contain moving objects or camera motion. A scene with everything perfectly still looks just about the same anywhere.

Thanks sanlyn,

I know without the TBC-1000 today there are segments of video that skip. The tape keeps spinning but you can visually see pauses on the screen as it records and those pauses are basically skipped in the final output. With the TBC-1000 it plays thru in it's entirety. Do you think the ES15 can fix something like that or is it just more for the tearing?

Also I'm game to use something else other than the ADVC110 if I happen to have it (2 full metal cabinets of old computer gear and cables). :D Just figure this is the best way to get it into the computer without having to tear open a computer case and install extra cards and drivers and the like.

JR