VHS to DVD transfers look bad on new HDTV?
 

I've recently gone back to transferring some old VHS tapes to DVD. I've done a few in the past but those were before I got my ZT60 flatscreen. My DVDs look fine on my trusty JVC CRT but when I put them on the Panasonic it can be painful to watch at times. I understand the sheer physical limitations of the media but I was wondering if there were anything I could do to improve matters somewhat? I'm not expecting miracles mind you just wanting to know if I can make it better.

Currently my transfer setup is fairly straightforward. I use a JVC SR-V10C that I purchased from TGrant photo (highly recommend this merchant) feeding into a Toshiba DR570KU. I am using the S-VHS feed on the video line.

I've read several other threads on this and other forums but the availability of information is almost overwhelming particularly to someone trying to get a handle on a good starting point on their particular situation. I thought I would post the question here and see how I fared.

Any assistance is appreciated and I'll be glad to provide any additional details.

You need to define what ""it can be painful to watch" means. Describe the issues you're seeing.

Decent JVC S-VHS VCR, yes. The SR-V10U is actually better at EP than the 7000/9000 lines.

s-video is best, yes.

I'm not sure about the quality of that Toshiba recorder. I think that's one of the latter Funai rebadges, and those aren't great machines.

I notice the lack of TBC.

Perhaps post a sample clip of the bad footage.

I thought the SR-V10U had an integral TBC. I've always had good luck with the Toshiba. I think my problem is going from a 27" CRT to a 65" plasma.

What DVD recorder do you recommend? I picked the JVC deck up based on your recommendations.

I will try to post footage later.

External framesync TBC is not the same as internal line TBC. You need both.

JVC also made excellent LSI Logic based DVD recorders. Be aware that only certain models are good, not the JVC brand in general.

Post the footage, show us your errors.

Does the Panasonic DMR-E30 have the LSI chipset?

The ES-20 was Panasonics first attempt on utilizing LSI

Post 3
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...sonic-DMR-ES20

Yes I know that but I'm trying to find out if the Panasonic DMR-E30 has the LSI chipset. Does anyone know?

I believe that the changeover to "LSI" was made in the year of 2005.
My first Pana was the DMR E100H [2003]

At the moment I have only DMR ES10 + 15 / + 595 DMR EH65
and a DMR EX98V.
All other I've sold or brought to the cemetery.

I think that using an LSI chipset only the newer model with 720 x 576 [480].

All DMR with 704 x 576 [480] does not have built-in image resolution LSI.

Here, perhaps, find what exactly

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/106-dv...-features.html

No. The ES-20 was the last Panasonic to use the LSI chip. All others used Panasonic's own.

Recording VHS directly to DVD is a convenient way of doing it, but only high bitrates are recommended even if you have an LSI chip onboard. Direct VHS to DVD does nothing to reduce many VHS noise problems -- at least recording at high bitrates gives you a workable MPEG that can be cleaned up and re-encoded.

There are other considerations. The ES10 and ES15 had more powerful line tbc's and frame sync correction, but later models steadily decreased in the quality of those features.
There's another factor, and very important. The Toshiba DR570KU is a DVD/VCR combo. The brand name doesn't matter, as none of the major OEM names have made their own players or recorders for several years. All combo units are pretty much alike. The JVC player is a step up, but the recorder section itself isn't a "real" Toshiba. Another factor is the condition of the tapes. If you want VHS to look as clean as digital, a DVD recorder won't do it for you. VHS will never "look like" a DVD original for several reasons, but with some post-processing work they can look infinitely better than the noisy original. Another factor is Panasonic HDTV's. I've never cared for them or their pumped contrast and pushed reds, and they don't handle interlace or telecine as well as a few other TVs like SONY or Samsung (although Samsung has frequent quality control problems). By the time CRTs began to disappear they'd gone through decades of refinement, so tapes looked better on those monsters than they do on LCDs. LCD's are far more intolerant of noisy input. Sharp-eyed users have always known this, which is why so many people held on to their CRTs. I know many who still own them. But keep in mind that even if you'd had a 60" CRT you'd see problems magnified.

Still, you can always improve those recordings but it takes some work.

As lordsmurf suggested, we don't know what "painful" means. We'd have to see a short edit of a few seconds of video to advise. DVD content in the VIDEO_TS folder on a disc can be copied directly to a PC to make short edits. However, the content is in the form of VOB files. These are MPEG2 encoded, but you need smart-rendering editors to make a sample without re-encoding the cut. A cleaner way to transfer DVD content to a properly organized MPG file is to use the free VOB2MPG. If you want to do any cleanup of the video, you'd need VOB2MPG anyway. A group of VOB files themselves are not very convenient for that work.

Either way, whether you copy VOBs to a PC or get an MPG using VOB2MPG, you can easily make a quick, unaltered sample with the free DGIndex utility in DGMPGDec, which works properly with VOBs and MPGs. You would need a sample of about 10 seconds of video with some motion involved, such as people or objects moving, gesturing, etc. (just a talking head, unfortunately, doesn't have enough variation to see the problems). DGIndex can make a cut on I-frames and does not re-encode the output file. It's a free standing utility that needs no Windows installer. There is a tutorial that shows how to use it and make a sample video here: http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...=1#post2272359. The explanation takes longer to read than to actually do it. A 10-second or so MPEG cut would be a file size well within limits for uploading directly to the forum.

Without a sample, there's not much more anyone could say.

Thanks for the replies everyone!

sanlyn my Toshiba is a DR570KU but it is not a VCR/DVD combination unit. It looks like the one here--
http://www.manualslib.com/manual/203...a-Dr570ku.html

I've been meaning to upload a sample but have just been too busy.Does it matter if the tape is a commercial one but one that is not available on disc in its original VHS form?

Oh, yes, yet another variation of the 570's. It's the same recorder section used in the 570 series. They differ in tuner sections, HDD size, etc.

If the you made the DVD from a tape you own or made yourself, posting isn't a problem. Be sure to use either DGIndex or a smart rendering editor like TMPGEnc Smart Renderer to make samples that won't be re-encoded. DGIndex is the easiest way to get a quick sample, either from mpg or VOB copied to your PC.

I still plan on posting some footage however I think some of my issues were due to forgetting to alter some settings that would improve the quality of the image on playback.

However, I was wondering how I can go about re-centering the image about 7 pixels down to hide the overscan/head switching line without re-encoding. Is that possible? I did a search but nothing really helpful came back unless it's my search parameters at fault. Any advice appreciated.

Most broadcast recorder can cover the area.
or
Elro VL 300 / Elro VL220
Video Fader = okay
Sharpness = ask only to zero

I've tested both here and also

Here I cover the edges off until after the capture.
Either in Edius or via Avisynth

Use the pan&scan (zoom-in) option with a player like MPC-HC, it's free and no reencoding

themaster1

The question was
VHS to DVD ... headless switch Noise [ohne Kopfumschaltbereich]
Not to Soft Player

Panasonic implementation of LSI was awful. The chip was poorly used.

So you're saying the ES-20 is garbage then?

You know it's getting kind of frustrating trying to figure out what constitutes quality equipment even when you read postings in this forum. My JVC VCR is one of the bold listings on this site of recommended vcrs but elsewhere I'm informed it's an "okay" vcr! I read that the LSI chip is the one to look for in DVD recorders and Panasonic is listed amongst those having it and now I learn it's rubbish!

Good grief!

There are different opinions about LSI in Pana DMR models.
I do not know properly.

Here in the German speaking writes a user ...
the ES-15 is the same as the EH65 .... only diskless.

1st place has here the ES-10
Canopus NX 2.Platz
3rd place Pana DMR EH65

Audio should be the ES-10 does not give to feed.
Either in the post by 121 ms delay or see image.

Try what DMR is good ... test is better than studying.

Goldwingfahrer: LSI is the compression chip. He's taking about recording direct to DVD, not using passthrough to PC.

You have to realize that the Panasonic DVD recorders came out 10 years ago. And I'm 10 years older. Lots has happened in that time. I just cannot remember the ins and outs of similar models to the ones I own and use. The ES10 and ES15 were fine. I don't remember the specifics of the ES20 and ES25. Search the forum, as I know it's been discussed in years past. I may have even been the one to discuss it!

When I discuss JVC VCRs, it's usually to discern the finer points of the unit. The buying guide is accurate, and any added comments I make in other threads are just added info to the model. For example, while the 9800 and SR-V10U are both excellent, they differ some. And that's really to be expected, as the units are about 4-5 years apart in age.

The LSI chip is the one to look for, but it's not the *only* aspect to look for. LSI could be implemented differently. While the JVC is best, and the Panasonic is lousy, both are better than a run-of-the-mill Funai or Philips.

It's not just binary: good vs. bad. It's more like a gradient.

We haven't seen any video or images, so it's not possible to advise in any detail.

Not without re-encoding. I've posted a sample of one way of doing it, below.

No, not exactly rubbish, and lordsmurf qualified that judgment in later.

One is tempted to think that a VCR's dnr and a denosing chip like LSI will solve all problems. It will help make life easier, but it's no cure-all. Panasonic's LSI implementation was faulted in being somewhat too aggressive at times, especially with really dirty VHS source. At recording speeds longer than SP, Panasonic used that chip at low bitrates for 720x480 frames, but those bitrates are far too low for clean encoding at 720x480. Had Panny reduced the frame to 354x480, as some other recorders do for lower bitrates and longer recordings, a lower bitrate would look cleaner.

A while back I recorded a few retail tapes on my ES20. Mind you, these were fairly clean retail tapes, more pristine than a home-made VHS made on a typical home VCR. They sufficed at the time on my old CRT (which I still miss, darn it!), but LCD's simply don't tolerate noise the way a CRT could. Plasmas are a little better at it. But at big display sizes the usual VHS defects are greatly magnified.

What you've discovered is what pros and hobbyists have known for years, and what this forum has been harping about for just as long: capturing VHS directly to lossy codecs like MPEG, h264, DV, etc., without a pristine input signal illustrates that encoders don't like noise and are not equipped, even with LSI technology, to do the kind of cleanup that lossless capture affords. Fortunately I saved most of the tapes I recorded to the ES20 and reworked several as lossless captures.

However if you want to know what an ES20/LSI capture looks like with retail tape, I've included a brief capture below, as MiracleOn34th_ES20.mpg. Admittedly it looks better than no LSI chip at all, but it left much to be desired. I haven't recaptured that specific movie: the DVD issue replaced it. For the original capture I used a Panasonic PV-9668 Dynamorphous VCR, a PA-100 proc amp, and my old ES20. I had no Macrovision problem with that tape, and the ES20's so-so built-in line tbc did creditable work. The PV-9668 did have a mild denoiser feature. But I think you can see from the mpg that the LSI chip wouldn't (and couldn't) cover everything. The mpg displays flicker, lots of noise on the walls in the background, some spots, dropouts, halos, and the kind of rather over filtered look that the LSI produced. Also keep in mind that LSi and VCR denoisers are primitive compared to what can be had today in software.

Below is an image from the ES20 recording that shows the kind of VHS problems that no VCR or built-in denoiser can handle. It shows three white veryical "flashes" along the top, one in the upper left, one in the top middle, and one at top right. Also note that the grain and textures in the background wall have a rough, spattered look for that one frame. Also, the frame isn't centered and there's plenty of bottom head-switching noise -- common problems with direct-to-DVD captures, along with blown-out highlights and murky shadow detail.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1451924841

Below, showing that it's possible to take a so-so DVD capture and clean it up with Avisynth. But there will be some loss of detail due to cleanup of the original DVD compression loss and encoding artifacts that result from VHS noise. You can also see the beginnings of posterization effects from re-encoding the filtered original.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1451924959

The reworked result is attached as Miracle_ES20_Reworked.mpg. The original video is telecined. For cleanup, telecine was removed and then replaced during encoding as soft-coded 3:2 pulldown. For re-encoding I used a higher bitrate than the I did with original 4600kbps DVD.

Despite the "convenience" of recording directly to DVD, if you expect to do any VHS cleanup then lossless capture is the prescribedd choice for a multitude of reasons. Lossless isn't noiseless -- it won't be, not with VHS, but a VCR with some denoising ability can help shorten the work. Lossless comes with no compression loss or lossy compression artifacts. It's easier and more effective to clean up lossless captures than it is to repair a DVD capture.

The ES20 mpg might be clean enough to meet your needs. The old DVD looked, well, OK on our 27" CRT. But that's a long way from what you could get by working with a lossless capture.

Sorry for being so long in getting back to this thread. Thanks for the advice and followup lordsmurf and sanlyn. I appreciate it. I was getting a little frustrated trying to get things squared away in my mind regarding the equipment and what to buy and not to buy.

I did sell the Panasonic though and picked up a couple of JVC DR-M10S machines one of which is the subject of another thread--

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr-...html#post42847

Need some help there with that one! :)

With video, this often happens, even to me. :cry: