Capturing NTSC videos in Europe?
Hello,
I'm in Europe (Sweden) and want to digitize NTSC tapes. I have a JVC HR-7600MS (which apparently is a multi-system unit, although the output appears to be coaxial only - I guess it's a bit ancient), and a JVC HR-S7700 (which, while S-VHS, doesn't seem to support NTSC). What are my choices? Should I even attempt to digitalise through the HR-7600MS' coaxial jack? Or would a new purchase of machine be my best bet - in that case, which one? I would like to try to sidestep the need for a step-up transformer/expensive shipping from the US. Thank you in advance! |
No it is not worth capturing via RF out, You would need a NTSC VCR or the JVC HR-S7600AM PAL/NTSC if TBC and S-Video are required, This is the only S-VHS VCR in the history that is capable of doing 525/625 native scan and built in line TBC but finding the unicorn is probably a lot easier. So just get a US VCR.
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Bummer. I guess it's import time then. Edit: A follow-up question. If I'm only meaning to digitize standard VHS tapes, would a S-VHS deck mean a significant improvement? |
Most newer PAL VCRs can play NTSC tapes and output a not quite NTSC signal (NTSC 4.43, PAL60 or both depending on the VCR).
So, what I've used to capture NTSC tapes in PAL land is a VCR that can do that and passed the signal through a newer Sony or Pioneer DVD/HDD-recorder as those can handle these formats and do a decent job at correcting jitter as well (as the TBC on SVHS VCRs is not active when playing NTSC other than the mentioned multi-system one). They will output the signal as normal NTSC over the S-Video output if set to it in the menus. The other method I've used is to pass the video through Panasonic DVD/HDD recorder like the DMR-ES10 using a multi-system deck (or a native NTSC one) with proper NTSC output, as the PAL panasonic DVRs do support NTSC as well (other than possibly the very old ones). The are very good at handling dodgy video signals and great at correcting jitter. They do only support standard NTSC though, so they can't be used with PAL60 or NTSC 4.43 output like the Sony/Pioneer models (which are not quite as resilient with very bad tapes). Multi-system decks that have standard ntsc (3.58) do seem to pop up now and then for sale used, at least here in Scandinavia. There are a bunch of models that don't have conversion functionality (and french SECAM support) that aren't overly expensive as they don't feature the extra standards conversion stuff and french SECAM playback that the ones mentioned in the guide have. (Some may lack hi-fi and not support all speeds though.) I find this to work pretty well. A native NTSC SVHS VCR with TBC may give a tad nicer result, but I as olny get like a handful of NTSC tapes each year, I haven't seen enough need or quality issues to justify the cost of importing one. |
S-VHS with built in TBC can be expensive here in the US as there is a surge in demand for them, What you could probably do is hunt down a NTSC combo VHS/DVD that can output component (480i), Such combo's are usually built in image stabilizer and output the signal via component (Red, green, blue) for the VHS section, Then just capture from component, Be careful, not all combo's output VCR via component, check the manual before you buy.
I have heard that some VHS/DVD combo's have S-Video out for the VCR and are built in image stabilizer I have yet to come across a model, The only units I've seen that have S-Video out and image stabilizer/line TBC are the S-VHS decks. |
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There is supposedly also some difference in the angle between video and hi-fi heads in NTSC and PAL/SECAM drums, but what effect that has in practice on a modern deck I'm not sure. (I think some older decks wouldn't do hi-fi in NTSC mode) Many capture cards support the two pseudo-NTSC signals, but as people know they are usually crap at handling raw vcr output hence the suggestion of using a DVR that supports these formats. The AVT/Cypress TBCs handle NTSC 4.43 as well. The color will be converted to digital Cb/Cr component form internally in the DVR or TBC, so the color format on the output side shouldn't matter. NTSC 3.58 to standard PAL conversion on the other hand, as can be done in e.g the format converting multi-system decks like the Samsung SV-x000W VCRs involve changing frame rate and number of fields, so that is likely to cause jaggyness and ghosting so it's not something that should be used for capturing. If I have some time one day I could make some samples comparing the NTSC variants on a multi-system VCR if you are curious. I don't have a native non-NTSC VHS VCR on hand (though the SV-7000W we got is an US one I think as it has a US power plug), though I have the samsung and two other multi-system VCRs that can output in all the NTSC variants and record NTSC. I do have a native Sony NTSC Hi8 camcorder and portable Sony Video8 player, but I don't have the equivalent PAL models. For the Video8 player (EVO-250) the video quality was worse than with that than with NTSC 4.43 playback on my PAL Sony CCD-TRV66, so if there was any quality degradation due to it being NTSC 4.43 it was less than the quality loss from using an older player. |
Is the JVC HR-S7600AM a good player? Not having to purchase a stepdown transformer is appealing, so are the multi-system capabilities.
I've found one on a Chinese page for what seems to be about 250 US dollars + shipping, which is pretty much at the higher end of what I can pay. While I don't know/expect much about the condition/testing (especially after the international shipping), I do know at least one local professional repairman who could take a look at it. |
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In my experience NTSC tape in PAL deck, with NTSC playback function, need more Hi-Fi tracking and/or tape path alignment precision, otherwise is easier hear audio heads switch noise (as we say here in Italy "the audio is farting"). |
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Be careful when buying from Chinese auction sites, It's a hit and miss, I own two of these units, I bought one from ToaBoa website in China and one from a Russian website site, 2 years apart, I was aware that both purchases were risky, Most of the money I paid was for shipping, VCR's themselves were like $20. When I received each one I did a thorough cleaning, full service including removing and putting new grease/oil, After about 2 years of light use both units needed spindle brakes. |
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Yes, I will. I think I'll try to find a cheaper unit. An untested unit without casing screws/power cord/remote just popped up for what seems to be a bargain (sub-10 USD) and I'm thinking about it. It does seem to have lived a hard life, though (it's even serial (?) stamped on the front). |
The S7600AM is the same as any S7600XX, It just have extra cards inside for two standards and a multi voltage power board, And it's better than the standard converter units sold around the world like the Samsung 5000 or whatever model is.
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There we go. I bought a HR-S7600AM from a Japanese second-hand page for an amount of money (around USD 270 + 130 i shipping). Alea iacta est.
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Let us know how it works when you get it.
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On a similar note - excuse me for digressing - is there a single PAL/NTSC TBC unit that could be said to be affordable (or at least consumer-priced) for a consumer like me? I know that it may sound rich from someone who just purchased a HR-S7600AM, but dropping 1000+ US dollars on a TBC just isn't within my current capabilities..
I have seen lordsmurf's sales post and I trust their judgment completely, but as much as I wish that I could spend that kind of money, I just don't have that kind of money. |
As noted earlier, the PAL Panasonic DVD-recorders (at least from the DMR-ES10 and on for a while) support both PAL and NTSC. (The United states/NTSC models do not). So an option is to make use of one of those (or the Sony/Pioneer ones but they are a bit more prone to dropped/inserted frames), provided you use a volume control or similar to lower the video level before entering the DVR to avoid clipping.
For the full-on TBCs the Datavideo TBC-3000 has a NTSC/PAL switch inside, the Cypress/AVT TBCs support multiple PAL and NTSC variants. Not sure whether the TBC-1000 can be switched like the 3000 or not. |
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The budget options is the ES10/15 + DataVideo DVK.
The ES10/15 is not a TBC, but a DVD recorder. It has a strong line TBC (meaning JVC TBC must be OFF) -- yet crippled, to allow Macrovision/anti-copy. It has a basic frame sync, not framesync TBC (ie, DataVideo TBC-1000). The DVK has a weak framesync TBC that needs to be pre-processed by a good line TBC (and sometimes the VCR line TBCs fail, while ES10/15 does not). You can try ES10/15 alone, or DVK alone, but there is a large fail rate (overall, all sources, wide array of issues). An actual TBC is mostly "set it and forget it", while TBC(ish) methods are "monitor, verify, re-verify". (You should monitor all methods, but the actual TBC tends to be bulletproof, far less worries and hassles.) As an example of what can go wrong, dropped frames and audio skew, or even luma/brightness values can fluxuate. The ES10/15 is not transparent, you get luma issues with PAL, posterization, and aggressive NR that always on (even when "off"). This unit is suggested for tearing mostly, before an actual TBC, not really in lieu of a TBC. The DVK is finicky at signal start (10s or so) before usually behaving. The TBC-1000 "auto-senses" PAL/NTSC. Some models are PAL-first (NTSC fallback), others NTSC-first (PAL fallback). |
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I edited my post with more info, so re-read it. ;)
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I received the VCR but it seems to have a few issues.
At first, the machine was picky with when it wanted to load tapes or reject them just afterwards. Later, it played an included PAL tape well (SP tape) well, but now it loads the tape, wraps the tape around the head, and immediately goes into standby mode. The same happens when I press the power button without inserting a tape. Audible whir from the head, before it whirs down again. Tried to spin the gears below the head but to no avail. Before this, it behaved strangely when playing a NTSC tape - adding four black-and-white stripes to the image. I might as well attempt to get it fixed, but would anyone have any idea as to what could contribute to this? Edit: I assume that it has the dynamic drum system issue. I'll ask someone to attempt to unjam the gears and give them a little grease - I'm not really confident in even being close to the head assembly myself. But I still am not entirely sure why it seems to have rejected some tapes (although that issue seems to be gone now), and why I saw stripes on the image. |
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Panasonic decks with TBC changed much more over time internally than the JVCs, so it seems to vary a bit: NV-HS860 and HS960 manual states TBC and 3D DNR does not work with NTSC, ", same with the older 950. HS1000 (this one I can verfy as I've tested), and FS200 says about TBC "only in PAL playback". Linked HS860/960 manual doesn't say it does not work on MESECAM, so idk there, the linked 950 manual is for a variant without MESECAM so don't know with that either. For the newer HS930, the manual states TBC is inactive in MESECAM (but not noting NTSC), while the even newer NV-SV121 doesn't note anything about TBC being inactive in any mode. Whether/to what extent analog noise reduction is active also seems to vary a bit, on the HS1000 it seemed to be mostly be disabled when playing a NTSC tape, while on the 8500 it seemed it was active. Think in general it's more likely to be on in NTSC mode on newer models as the video ics evolved to have NTSC playback built in. Of these it looks like all of them other than the FS200 (which plays back in ntsc 4.43) only let you use PAL60 for NTSC playback, so that is a slight limitation. I don't know if the NTSC->PAL color conversion happens in the TBC (which would be ideal) on the models that have it or if the TBC is acting on a PAL60 signal from the video IC which can mean a slight vertical chroma resolution loss as at least early PAL60 playback had to throw away every other line of chroma. (NTSC 4.43 is just straight NTSC but with color at a higher frequency so it doesn't have any inherent loss or conversion compared to standard NTSC.) |
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