Mini studio for capturing/upscale family/friends VHS tapes?
 

Hi Guys,

my family and friends are asking me what we can do to re-watch old tapes(PAL and NTSC) so I decided to help them and take care of the digitization process. but after watching some videos on YT and reading the forum I'm confused, so I have questions for you for help and suggestions

1) VCR - i have option to buy hr-s9200 or hr-s9500, they are good? or should I wait and look something better?

2) what to insert between the VCR and capture card ? I can't afford real tbc.
whether the Panasonic ES-20(40-50$) will be decent? or maybe DMR-EZ48V(150$) ? or Sony HXD 870 ?
or maybe ADVC 110 will be enough?

on YT I saw that advc 110 with blackmagic Intensity Shuttle is recommended or using the upscaler with hdmi capture card

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVLUxRkPMdA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7PoNzrECG4

but on the forum I read that ADVC 110 is crap and is not a TBC

3) capture card - I have the opportunity to buy :
Hauppauge WinTv HVR-1700 PCIe, its good ? (30$)
Hauppauge ImpactVCBe ? (70$)
Hauppauge USB-Live2 ?(15$)
or look for something better like Avermedia CE310B (but it is not available in Europe)?
or should I dig in basement for old PC with AGP and buy some ATI AIW?

4)Scaler - whether it is appropriate to use the mini AV2HDMI upscaler ? like here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC5Z...ist=WL&index=6 - the dude is convincing;)

I also saw someone using extrona dvs 204
or maybe it will be enough to use software and upscaling?
or TV will do it for me

thank you in advance for your help

You can see the JVC HR-S9500 and the Hauppauge USB Live-2 in action here (with the YT compression): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMs...h1MmNAs7I8nu4g

In my case, no DVD-R pass-through used (lineTBC of VCR is enough), neither a frame TBC. But this depends on the conditions of the tapes.

HDMI / Scaler / DV capture are not recommended.

Random Youtubers are often using bad methods. They have zero experience with video, aside from their own tiny stash of tapes. Many of them make the silly mistake of thinking the tiny preview window on their computer shows (or doesn't show) quality. What matters is when the content is actually watched (HDTVs, fullscreens, etc), and that's when their half-baked methods fall apart.

DV throws out 50% of your color data, adds blocks, and overall just makes video mush. DV was the conversion method of the 1990s. What you want is the conversion methods of the 2000s for analog tape conversion. (HD was the 2010s, and you want to avoid that as well.)

DV is passable for PAL, 4:2:0 instead of 4:1:1, like DVD-Video specs. But still, not ideal, not 4:2:2.

Blackmagic cards are infamous crap that drop frames. BM cards also don't report the drops, so you're flying blind. These make for great HD cards, and piss-poor SD cards. SD was a very lousy afterthought feature that should have been left off.

Do not upscale. That requires losing massive quality by messing with interlacing. You gain nothing, you lose much. Leave the master conversion 720x480 interlaced lossless, and then convert a carefully deinterlaced (QTGMC) version from it for streaming as needed. Youtube demands silly high specs, but the streaming world isn't just Youtube. So a 640x480 stream is just as viable as whatever Youtube's has decided on spec of the month. Streaming conversion has nothing to do with capturing, those are choices for post-capture.

JVC 9200 is ridiculously old and worthless. The 9500 (NTSC, not PAL) is passably decent, though the real quality of JVC decks didn't start until the x600 lines (9600, 7600, etc). Those 9500 are 25 years old now, and you must be careful buying. Those have a lot of potential problems. FYI, I generally avoid DD 9000s models. There are better JVC EOL decks, both quality and reliability.

Do not make the newbie mistake of running to eBay to buy VCRs, nor trust the ridiculous claims of "tested" and "working". Seeing lights (clock, etc) isn't working, and seeing any quality image on screen from a ratty old retail VHS tape (TMNT, Home Alone, whatever) isn't testing. Insane. At least 85% of all eBay decks are crap, including most of the "tested" and "working" nonsense. Most VCRs are sold by recyclers and estate sellers, and they really don't understand a VCR any better than a toaster.

PAL is PAL.
NTSC is NTSC.
Machines were made that "play both", but do so quite poorly.
PAL VCRs often play NTSC, but in a quasi format that cannot be captured (not to any spec).

ES20 will not work.
ES10/15, ES25 (warning: mixed results here), EH75V, maybe few others in PAL lands

- DV boxes are not TBCs.
- DV boxes do not contain TBCs. (Anybody claiming that is damned moron. I get tired of that myth, which started due to B&H putting wrong info on their site many years ago. I called them out on this, first in private, then in public, before that BS was removed.)
- The exception is the ADVC-300, which has the super-weak laughable line TBC. So weak that it may as well not exist. The byproduct of a frame TBC is literally more powerful line-wise than the 300 line TBC.

No, not Hauppauge 1700
I've never heard of the ImpactVCBe, and that's probably not a good thing.
Live2 is passable, but mixed usage results there. Some like it, many do not. I'm neutral on it.

AIW really is the pinnacle of the capture cards for SD videotapes. (Amusing, the Pinnacle brand has some decent USB cards, certain subversions of certain models, but not the pinnacle of quality. Not living up to the brand name!)

Don't dig the basement, pull out some awful single-core P4 with IDE drives. You''ll think the AIW is bad, but it's the computer. You can build a nice system with 2010s specs, anything from budget SATA/dual-core systems, to even 7th gen Intel i7 CPUs and post-2015 motherboards. Do yourself a favor, install the unofficial patched/backported XP Integral edition. (Warning, the guy that makes Integral is a kook, so don't read his blog beyond the XP page. You'll just get dumber.)

Never scale videotape. The end.
The HDTV will scale as needed. Computer player software is the same.

The Youtube "dude" (the "little weird" capture method guy) is a dumbass, one of those people that pretends to know stuff. He fools newbies, but anybody with even passable knowledge on video knows he's out of his depth (and mind). He's been trashed online for years. In actuality, he's one of those folks that doesn't know a VCR from a toaster. The HDMI converter method is probably one of the most piss-poor method to convert VHS tapes, even worse than infamous Easycaps (which earned the nickname Easycrap).

Extron gear has always been interesting at face value, but never actually usable. Nobody even use it for anything. It's just stuff that gets passed around on eBay, antiquated broadcast gear with no consumer analog videotape usage scenarios.

Now then...

So your 9500, fine, be careful, but only if NTSC.
If PAL, no.

ES20, no. DVD recorders are not TBCs. Some Panasonic models were unique, allowed passthrough of line TBC (and non-TBC frame sync), but it's minimalist, and there's a fail rate. ES10/15/etc, and then fortified with DVK, actually gives a 99% TBC(ish), but still with DVD recorder downsides. But that's the price of budget. Save money, costs hidden.

If you can do the AIW, you'll thank yourself later. If you just insist on post-XP, not building computer, etc, then look for certain cards known for quality, like ATI 600 USB and clones. If Win10, then you have limited choices, like certain Pinnacles (for now, at least, until Microsoft nukes those too).

Remember to see the marketplace subforum of this site, some of us have extra gear. And some people are done with their projects. (Buy it, use it, resell it. The gear holds value.)

PAL HS-S9500 should be fine, though I would maybe consider a different JVC without the dynamic drum system if you have the option. Only thing it lacks compared to the PAL HS-S9600 really is the ability to use the soft and sharp picture modes that you don't really want anyhow, otherwise the internals are very similar. The one thing about that lineup that differs otherwise is that the PAL S7500 lacks TBC, while all the later S7xxx (and the NTSC S7500 which is very close to the PAL S8500) models had a TBC.

ES20 lacks the stabilizing functions of the other panasonics as noted, I know the NTSC DMR-EZ48 is not good, though there are some difference between NTSC and PAL for the newer Panasonic DVR-recorders so the PAL variant may be good, but I don't know for sure.

The Sony should also work pretty well in most cases. It is a bit more prone to dropping frames than the panasonics on very bad tapes but on the plus side it doesn't have the issues with clipping very bright that the panasonics can have.

The pcie cards you mention are all based on similar chipsets (impactvcb, related to the chip used in the hauppauge live dongle, not sure how the drivers are on those cards though. The IO-data gv usb2 is also an option if you want something that works fine with win10, though you have to order it from japan so it will take some time to ship (just recently got one of these).

you are truly the Lord, you share your knowledge and you care that people do not spend unnecessary money, I appreciate it very much.

what i could buy is: s9500 ms so i have to wait to buy something better. as i guess i need two VCR for NTSC and PAL system.

so if ES-10 is sufficient, thats better for me, it's even cheaper ($ 15)

with regards to capture card, i will try to find something on usb for my current computer, if it fails it will build a second one with ATI AIW 800XL(build PC its no problem for me)

I also found:
ATI ALL-IN-WONDER X600 128MB PCI-E
or
ATI All in Wonder PCI 3D Rage Pro 8 MB ?
they are good?


any recomendation about motherboard ? I am curious what motherboard will support the agp and I7 processor?

That Babydav again in your first youtube link? He was banned from videohelp because of his argumentative behavior, He swears by his stupid ways of capturing video.

If buying used cards such as the AIW, be sure you get the breakout cables that go with it. Some will sell a bare card, but no cables and that becomes a problem because the cables needed to connect s-video or composite video are difficult to find.

The methods you select will depend on your ultimate goals and time budget (including time on learning curve) as well as money you can afford to spend up front, and quality standard for the end product. Do you plan to do restoration, color grading, or other editing of the video? What is you intended distribution format?

VCRs are electro-mechanical devices. Rubber and plastic parts age and harden, crack, stretch, crumble, wear, etc. Some electronic components values change, weaken over time, especially electrolytic capacitors. Thus two machines of the same make and model may well perform very differently with the same tape. Also, apparent performance of gear often depends on the condition of the tapes it is fed. Some tapes may play well in almost any VCR, others may be very fussy. Similarly capture card behavior often depends on the quality of the signal it is fed. Out of spec sync pulses and levels can baffle some cards while others digest the same signal with relative ease. Line and frame TBC's can mitigate this issue.

VHS and Video8 were consumer formats so don't count on professional or broadcast gear as a solution to quality. The broadcast industry used different formats, and the equipment they used was used heavily and sold when beyond economical repair or rendered obsolete by changes in standards. FWIW the VHS tape duplication services (not the ones used by main stream film studios) I have visited operated with racks of consumer VCRs fed by distribution amps making the copies.

As notes buying off ebay or other auction sites is a crap shoot at best. If you do buy be sure you have return rights and exercise them quickly if the gear you buy does not match what was advertised. If trolling garage sales and thrift shops for gear, take a test tape and a small monitor along to check basic operations.

found the AIW X800XL with cables. Is processor selection important when it comes to video capture? or any celeron or P4 sufficient?

when it comes to VCR it's hard to find something from the JVC S9XXX series in europe in good price.

which capture card will be more appropriate

ATI AIW X800XL 256MB PCIe or ATI ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON 8500 128MB DDR AGP ?

Do not be in a rush, and start randomly buying things. Research more. For example, I want to post again, but it may be a few days, time limited here for me.

Here's a discussion that might be useful. It includes links to others on this subject.

AIW X800XL vs. 8500: there are pros and cons. The PCIe card opens up the choices for motherboards and CPU's vs. the AGP which can make finding the supporting hardware more difficult. All of the PCIe cards require later MMC software that does not work as nicely to create MPEG files directly so some will shun them on that basis. For lossless capture there are less disadvantages but all of the PCIe cards capture with an offset image which puts a narrow black band on the right side of the image. Since one is most likely going to mask the image anyway after capture (to cut out the head switching noise at the bottom at minimum) this is not really a big problem since the offset can be negated at the same time. Another complaint about the PCIe cards is that most, including the X800XL (I believe) are a bit power hungry and therefore heat generators within the PC so require better case ventilation, etc. All that said, there are many dedicated forum members that are very happy with their PCIe capture cards.

As has been stated above, for any AIW, you need to get the correct input/output cables for them to be useful. I'm not that familiar with the 8500, but I think it requires a peculiar 29 pin cable which provides all of the analog I/O. It's the same connector style as the AIW 9600's use but it is not the same pinout or cable.

You might do a bit more digging on this forum using it's internal Google search function.
Possible useful searches:
"best motherboard for agp"
"silver stab connector"
"aiw pcie"

Good luck,
BW

after 2 days reading I come back with thoughts and questions.

I decided to build a PC for capture only

MPEG 2 capture works best with ATI MMC and the best choice is ATI AGP slot card.

And if I want to capture a lossless AVI file with VirtualDUB, I can choose PCIE and it will give me the same quality as ATI AGP card and after all i can convert the file to MPEG2 on my main PC with the same results like capture MPEG2 wih ATI AGP.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Is there any alternative to Turtle Beach Santa Cruz sound card? any modern PCIE or USB cards?

MPEG2 is an outdated compression scheme, It got replaced by more efficient and better quality modern codecs, For the same quality of MPEG-2 you get about 1/4 the file size in h.264, for the same size of MPEG-2 you get better quality, let alone lossless h.264 and h.265.

you say that i should capture Lossless AVI file and convert with H.264/h.265 codec?

so I'm curious why some people still capture mpeg 2 files?

People can use whatever they want, Some people are still using black and white CRT TV's.

Because they don't care about quality and they aren't planning to do any kind of restoration, they just want a quick and easy way to capture and their hardware encodes directly to MPEG-2 (or DV or H.264 or whatever).

VCRs:

Let's clarify:
- 7500 = no TBC
- 9500 = TBC, or no TBC? ... and I thought not :hmm:

Almost of bigger concern is the DD, or lack of DD. And some models do seem to hold up better. The NTSC 9600-9911 have mostly fallen apart by this late date (2020s).

MPEG:

MPEG-2 can be fine.

Bitrate matters. DVD-Video compressed highly, 9mbps max (usually far less, 5-6 max used)
Blu-ray is 15mbps
Broadcast is 50 max. MPEG is still in wide use by broadcasters.

I'm a TV/toon hobbyists from way back. A lot of my 90s and early 00s recordings are S-VHS. There's zero reason to convert lossless, I just want a clone of my VHS tapes. (FYI, not a crappy "clone", but using S-VHS decks and TBCs.) 15mbps MPEG gives that. If I want to do anything more special, I can recapture lossless. Or just convert from the MPEG masters, because it's just TV and commercials. (Only when something is rare and unreleased, such as my 1977 SP mode master recording of the Star Wars Holiday Special, does lossless matter.)

I dumped a lot of family tapes to MPEG-2 some years ago. And then I went back and re-captured lossless anything the needed it. But that was then. HDDs are far larger now, CPUs faster, etc. No reason to not capture lossless these days. That was also before VHS degrading started to hit mainstream, so I was able to take several captures without gritting my teeth.

There is no good alternative to TBSC, no. I tried Xonar, but wasn't impressed.

and that's what I'm saying, if loseless capture is the best option, is PCIe a good choice?
now hdd/sdd is cheap, e6800 also. if you have ATI PCI card, b75 intel chepset option its good to.
if AGP is overall bettter choice is what i wanna know.

the only thing i think of a pcie card is that i can build a mATX board and the pcie card is more available

sorry but i missing the link, what i should test before buy the VCR?

For that year's models (1998):
PAL: Both the HR-S8500E_ (which I have one of) and HR-S9500E_ has TBC and DD, HR-S7500E_ does not have either. The TBC works on PAL and NTSC playback, but not for MESECAM on models that have it.

Same for the MS variants (SECAM) though I don't know whether the TBC is active with SECAM or not on those. THose also have a SECAM->PAL converter (The 9500MS converts both ways.)

For US models, the S9500 and S7500 has TBC and DD, the S4500 has only DD, S3500 has neither.

There is also a HR-S5500AM (not to be confused with the much older models named HR-S5500) which is NTSC/PAL multi-system/multi-voltage with DD but no TBC, and a few HR-DD models that are normal VHS hi-fi but feature the dynamic drum system like the HR-DD858E and the HR-DD750U.

There is actually a full list for that year in this doc showing which models have the digital boards (though it seems there may be some minor changes after the doc was published.)

There are of course also going to be japanese equivialents but don't know much about those.

what about that card:
https://retrosoundcards.wordpress.co...heater-xp-6-1/

have the same chip like TBSC and have own DSP procesor.

As I see it, lossless capture is appropriate for material that will be:
- subject to serious restoration, noise reduction, color grading, effects, and editing beyond simple cuts.
- archived for potential future editing or restoration.
- working with noisy source material

Compressed formats such as MPEG or H264/265 are appropriate for
- distribution of the final product for home viewing
- use where file size/storage space/bandwidth is at premium
- one-and-done dump to DVD, BD, thumb drive, or other distribution media.

External audio card = latency.
No.

thank you all for the answers on this matter. the reason why I am asking this is because PCIe cards are more accessible. just as i understand it will take a little longer to get the final mpeg2 file. (capture loseless AVI> convert to MPEG 2)

has one mini jack line-in on the board, if I should grab the TBSC anyway, thats the only options for me is buying on ebay from US or Alliexpress here

next case is VCR...
because my family memories were recorded on a camera brought from the USA, so the next challenge is to get NTSC VCR in Europe, which is practically impossible

and regarding capture PAL VHS tapes, which is better workflow:

JVC HR-S9700EU > ES10 > AIW capture card
or
JVC HR-S9700EU > ADVC 110 > firewire card

I have only found on ebay:
JVC SR-VS30U and
JVC HR-DVS3

Guys, could you please advise regarding

NTSC workflow:

if this is risky option : JVC SR-VS30U or JVC HR-DVS3
maybe other suggestion about some mid-range NTSC VCR i can get in Euorpe? (JVC HDS1, SV-5000W)

PAL workflow, which one is better:

JVC HR-S9700EU > ES10 > AIW capture card
or
JVC HR-S9700EU > ADVC 110 > firewire card

better = JVC HR-S9700EU > ES10 > AIW capture card

VCR + line TBC
> line TBC disabled, non-TBC frame sync
> quality 4:2:2 AIW capture

Neither are ideal.
ES10 has luma issues.
DV has 50% color loss + blocks in encode.

More ideal is available. Do you have a budget? Remember: buy it, use it, resell it.

Stuff like this is too important to just shrug off. You'll regret it one day, it always happens. Seen it countless times. You'll just end up redoing the work later.

DV have the same problem regarding PAL?
I know that ideal will be with frame TBC

What I can get now for PAL is: JVC S9700, PANASONIC HS1000, ES-10 (standalone TBC IS Out of my budget range)

But when it comes to NTSC it is worse, I do not know what to look for on the European market. what i found is vs30u, but is it possible that it comes in two ntsc and pal versions

For PAL, DV reduces color resolution by 50% vertically instead of horizontally. PAL is kind of reduced color resolution vertically based on how it works anyhow so there won't really be much loss of resolution. Blocking/Compression noise is still an issue though, especially on noisy tapes.

ES10 (or most other Panasonic DVD-recorders since you are in PAL) don't have those issues, though they do have a tendency to blow out bright spots unless you manually lower the input video signal to them. If using a ES10 or similar anyhow you could also consider one of cheaper variants of the SVHS models without built-in TBC as they're mostly the same as the top of the line variant with TBC for playback (with a few exceptions).

Using the dvd-recorder approach also won't work if the tape has copy protection as that makes the brightness in most dvd-recorders to go up and down constantly passed through. It wasn't used much on PAL tapes though e.g many newer Disney ones have it. It was used a fair bit on commercial titles in NTSC areas however.

Most PAL/International Panasonic dvd-recorders including the ES10 support standard NTSC input so it's usable with a VCR that outputs that, it does not work with NTSC 4.43 or PAL60 which is what you get from a normal PAL VCR playing NTSC tapes. (The only dvd-recorders that support those are newer Sony and Pioneer ones, though they're not as good as jitter correction and are more prone to dropping frames than the panasonic ones.)

The U at the end of a JVC model name typically signifies an US model, I think the equivialent PAL variant would be SR-VS30E and has SCART sockets on the back. PAL decks also tend to show "625" under the VHS logo to indicate a (625-line) PAL system. The antenna connectors also use different plugs in the US and Europe so they will look different.
EDIT: I think the "SR-VS30U" is probably the european one as it shows "NICAM/A2" (digital broadcast audio format) and "TV-Link" (I think it's some interfacing with TV via SCART thing) which I doubt you would find on an US model. EDIT2: The last 2images in the ebay listing shows a different one for some reason which does look like the US model though they look like stock images from elsewhere.

quick question, can i use ES-10 PAL with NTSC VCR? if so, what good NTSC VCR do you recommend without TBC? Because if I understand correctly, I have to turn them off anyway

Yes. It works with both normal NTSC (from a NTSC or proper Multi-system VCR) and PAL. It will not work properly with a standard PAL VCR playing NTSC tapes. There is a setting in the menus for changing between them.

if i don't plan to use standalone TBC, do i still have to look for top VCR with TBC if i already have ES-10. what will be a good alternative for VCR PAL and NTSC? (two devices)

i have option for S7611, HDS1 or HS1000 (not big difference in price) all PAL

Guys, I would like to finally close the topic, but I still need an answer.

I currently have an ES-10 and an old PC with win7 and ATI AIW card, if I don't plan to buy a separate TBC do I really need High End VCR since I have to turn off the TBC anyway.

I currently have the option of purchasing VCR for PAL:

1) JVC 7611 & Panasonic HS1000
2) JVC 9700

but do I really need these? some other from mid range?

will a good PAL VCR be sufficient to playback NTSC tape? if so, what?

Out of those 3, I would go for the JVC HR-S7611, probably the safest bet. The HS1000 can be a bit hit and miss depending on condition, and the 9700 has the dynamic drum system that is a bit fragile and prone to breaking.

If you are using the ES10 anyhow, you could consider one of the cheaper SVHS models without TBC, i.e the NV-HS800 is HS1000 essentially the same as the HS1000 without TBC, the JVC HR-S6600 and 6611 are pretty much the same as the 7611 minus the TBC/DNR function. (I would stay away the very old side loading JVC models and the earliest Panasonics unlike you like repairing stuff yourself though.)

For capturing NTSC in PAL land, depends how much you want to budget on it, and how much tapes have:

Budget option 1: multi-system VCR with proper ntsc 3.58 output (or NTSC VCR) -> ES10 set to NTSC mode-> capture card
Budget option 2: Whatever SVHS you chose for pal (or another decent PAL VCR) -> newer pioneer/sony dvd-recorder in NTSC mode -> capture card
Option 2 won't work with the ES10 since standard PAL vcrs don't output a standard NTSC signal when playing back NTSC tapes. For that you would need one of the pioneer/sony ones dvd-recorders specifically. Those are the only ones that work with NTSC 4.43 and PAL60 as far as I know, though they're not as robust on very bad tapes as the ES10.

By proper multi-system I mean something like this. One that shows "NTSC 3.58" in additon to other tv system on the front. Don't know much about that model specifically other than that the PAL ones that look like it has the same mechanism as the HS1000 and AG1980P so no idea how usable it is, just an example. Ebay sellers sometimes confuse the NTSC on PAL playback with "multi-system" so have to be aware.

The TBC on the JVCs work when playing back NTSC tapes, on the panasonic NV-HS1000 it does not. (No idea about the later panasonics like the HS860 etc).

Getting a NTSC SVHS is of course also an option, though you would most likely have to import one from the US or Japan as the few full multi-system SVHS decks are extremely rare.

As a quick partial reply, the reason to own a JVC S-VHS deck isn't just for the line TBC, but the overall quality of image. It's not ruined by oversharpening, crushing contrast, etc. The transports are generally better, safer.

You need NTSC VCR for NTSC playback. That quasi output from PAL decks does not work.

"Multisystem" VCRs are notorious low-end crap, aside from a rarer JVC model.