Which capture device to get for VHS transfer?
Hello! Between youtube, reddit, and other searches I've fell down the rabbit hole of information with plenty of it being contradicting or scolded.
PC Specs: CPU: i7-6700K GPU: 1070 RAM: 16gb @ 2200 OS: win10 Background: My father has 100s of family VHS tapes recorded and I'd like to start digitizing them. He originally was working on converting them to dvd using a DVD/VCR combo. He works long hours so it's hard for him to find time for a project like that and he's only finished ~10 tapes in ~5 years. I work remote so I told him I could start working on digitizing everything for him. I'd like to record everything in a lossless format to an internal HDD because this is probably the only time(at least for a while) that they will be digitized and I'd like to keep the raw. After they're recorded I'll eventually convert them to a smaller sized format and set up a plex server with my rpi to give to my father. I understand what's needed for VCR/TBC/etc. but I'm just super disoriented on what capture device would be best for my situation.
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If you have a high end S-VHS player with lineTBC and Y/C output, and wish to work in Windows 10 you can consider IOData GV-USB or Hauppauge USB-Live 2. A (limited) comparison of the two devices here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...e3#post2660565
If your VCR has no lineTBC correction and/or Y/C output a (lower quality) workaround is to add a DVD-R recorder in pasthrough mode such as Panasonic ES-10 or ES-15. |
What is your ultimate objective: e.g., just capture as is for viewing on current platforms at about the same quality as your current VCR playback, or serious restoration, editing, and image color correction, etc.
How much time do you have to invest in learning curve? Do you have a target completion time frame? Gave you prioritized the individual tape to identify which should be done first, and which may not matter? Are the tapes generally in good condition or have they suffered from poor storage conditions and.or other abuse? What gear do you currently have beyond the PC? Include make and model? Is the $150 a hard upper limit or do you have some flexibility, including the ability to go appreciably higher if you could re-coop most if it when done? Have you read the extensive threads on this general subject including discussions of workflows, good and bad gear, etc. Be aware that most of the participants here are very serious about quality, have a high standard for the final product, and frequently would reject what many others might think is "good enough" |
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Yes, there is a lot of bad info out there. You'll read weasel phrases like "it works for me" or "good enough" or even "bang for the buck". In each case, that's an apathetic (and pathetic) response, the result of the person being confronted with actual data as to why their method is bad. So watch for those. Quote:
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- There are a few options for Win10, though mostly with workarounds, so be careful there. - PCIe and USB are just the comms methods, the quality of the card is what matters. That said, there's essentially zero capture cards that are PCIe and Win10. - Sometimes drivers have to be forced, so helpful to see you know what's what. Quote:
I think this thread gives a good view of the issues (though newbies may not see it, lots of jargon there). https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...k-What-s-In-It To me, it's a case of screwing around with hardware, trying to get it to work -- as opposed to buying it, plugging it in, and actually using it. Most people want to capture videos, not spend all their times playing with the hardware. Even I don't find fiddling overly fun anymore, time is a premium for me these days. (I do still fiddle, daily, but with far more important aspects that capture cards. Cards are really settled tech at this time, we all know what works, what sucks, and what is gray area.) Quote:
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- capture lossless (as best as possible, since this will be the only time, so no room to screw it up), - then later convert to streaming (hopefully QTGMC deinterlace copies for viewing, while retaining lossless masters, etc). Quote:
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All I expect from a capture card to (1) not make quality worse, as the videotapes often aren't great to begin with, any loss is uslaly obvious to anybody, even grandmas (2) not fight me to try and use it, require excess time, require workarounds that make you use lesser non-standard software I don't think that's unreasonable, nor held to any kind of insane high standard. What you describe here is the "audiophile" (or "videophile") mentality, the people that think certain colors or cables give better quality, etc. Those people are nuts. :screwy: Sadly, lots of cards fail at one or both or my basic requirements. You get far-flung quality changes to exposure/color/contrast/etc (and those values CANNOT be fixed later in software), or you get a stubborn card that needs to have it's bottom rubbed. This has always been true. Starting with WinVista, more and more cards just stopped working, with Win10 being the worst offender. Remember, capturing is a legacy task from the XP era. |
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No prioritization right now. The tapes are several states away (parents are in NY and I live in VA) so I'm going to grab them when I have stuff set up and do a few test runs. My dad will 0robably either give them to me in bulk or whichever ones he wants done first. Quote:
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You can survive on non-TBC JVC S-VHS (3800, 5900, etc, post 1998 models until EOL), paired with ES10/15 for strong+crippled line TBC with non-TBC frame sync. But resale will be reduced, and you may run into capture issues. It will surely work for some % of the project, but almost certainly NOT all of the tapes. That will leave you with tapes you'll have to outsource, or just not capture (probably a terrible option). And that ES10/15 has downsides for image quality. You can use the recommended JVC S-VHS with line TBC, but the ES10/15 TBC will be negated (first line TBC in chain wins), be a mere non-TBC frame sync, and still have some of the quality reducing issues. Resale will be okay. You can use the recommended JVC S-VHS with line TBC, and an actual DataVideo/Cypress type frame TBC made for analog consumer sources (good unit with no flawed chips, NOT a random TBC, no rackmounts!), and get best quality, best resale. Quality gear holds value, lesser gears hold less/no value. Quote:
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Use it as a hardware swap between boot drives. Keep primary as Win10. Add a small $20 SSD for Win7. Your sanity will thank me. :wink2: Then you'll have a clean OS, software disable networking, and only have a few capture tools. Win10 is a PITA for interruptions, and that causes all sorts of capture issues, especially dropped frames. XP will not install on that exact hardware. z170 boards tend to get rejected, as is the case with my Asrock Extreme 7+. Your system closely mimics my editing rig. I have a slightly lesser variant for AIW capture in XP, and it cannot use stock XP, Integral with patching required. Not a fun setup to make, but nice to use. |
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I've only managed to get AmaRecTV to behave once, which was one of the few times I also got Win10 to behave. I now maintain multiple Win10 systems here, 1 for dev, and 1 for production capture. Those things can be screwy. I'm resisting Win11 for now, but have the upgrade option. I'm glad we all started to use pure Linux here, for non-video tasks, when Win8 came out. Our post-Windows computer life has been much saner. (I also have Mac. I'm platform agnostic. Each are tools, and some tools suck at certain tasks.) Quote:
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Health, family, work. If I had more time for my video hobby, I could easily share clips from that. But I don't. What little hobby time I have is just run on JVC LSI DVD recorders. I can't share work very easily. Quote:
But newbies are too often easily misled. We sometimes don't realize how easy it is to do. I try to monitor non-video sites (Reddit. Youtube, etc), and see what's being discussed. What I sometimes observe is that info from this site (or VH, or Doom9) is badly mangled when shared. The telephone game. So I set it straight there, and I set it straight here at the source. |
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Avery Lee added the option "Automatically disable resync when integrated audio/video capture is detected" when the A/V integrated cards became available, which sometimes does not work very well, but that's another story. It is sad that Avery stopped VirtualDub developement long time ago, it was, and it is (in its original releases), a wonderful piece of software. Quote:
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That was continued to the VirtualDub FilterMod fork, which was 1.10.x with some more embedded codecs and encoders. It irks me how the VirtualDub2 update (FM renamed to 2) actually introduced dropped frames now. There are also major issues with the filtering. I told the dev about it, he asked for details. I took the time to send a report. Then nothing. Anybody that wastes my time is an ass. VirtualDub2 hasn't been updated in 2 years now either. So it may be abandonware. We'll never get bug fixes. I think the source is available for anybody that has coding skills. I was actually in talks with a dev to gut VirtualDub for a pure capture tool, but talks broke down during the pandemic. I need to clean my inbox, find who that was again. With a few exceptions, only use VirtualDub 1.9.x for capture and filtering. |
I absolutely love you blue guy, but you're way too humble! The ultimate answer is always get only lordsmurf approved equipment and get it from here in the marketplace, ideally from the blue guy himself. Yes, it's not cheap, but you'll know it's Grade A or B equipment that you can "Buy it, use it, resell it" as he says.
I've been out of the capture and VCR game for a long time, but I've followed the blue guy for over 15 years, here and at videohelp.com (and used to disagree with him in the beginning) and have found that 99% of the time he's absolutely right. And the 99% of the remaining 1% is he's still right, just with a slight variation of what the other learned and experienced members here and at videohelp.com say. Awww...there I go again! :smack: Gotta correct myself! :hmm: You old grouch! There, better! :laugh: Inside joke. I used to think he was just a stubborn, opinionated, know it all. Now, I know he's all three, but he's still right!!! |
Another non sense. We all respect and appreciate lordsmurf and his expertize, but he was proved to be wrong on some topics here and in videohelp forums, just as anybody else. I won’t report any of them.
Your dedication in his regards is very nice, but somehow strange, as it has been remarked by others in the past :). However is nice to see this friendship :wink2: |
Okay, okay, you caught me! He pays me to talk nice. Only problem is it's all in smurfbucks! :eek: LOL
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The entire reason I started to restore gear for others is to help the video transfer community, newcomers and old-timers alike. Both that, and because I didn't want to be accused of bad advice, when bad gear didn't work as discussed. If they get gear from me, it's guaranteed to work as stated, and with my personal support on their projects. At first, I took in gear, but it was too often irreparable junk. So I had to dragnet my contacts, to locate what I refer to as "refurb candidates". That worked pretty well, and I even bought out closing facility gear more than once. (Fronting the costs is not something most people would be willing or able to do. Do you want to buy 17 VCRs, and 17 TBCs?) Quote:
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Sometimes people also falsely assume I'm wrong, against the topic, etc, when I merely have doubts as to the validity of the information. For example, somebody I know always tells me random things, some of which sounds "off". If I state my hesitance to simply accept what he says, he gets all defensive. I, however, prefer to vet information from reliable sources, or by conducting sound experiments and original research. Quote:
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https://www.ebay.com/itm/225030754395 this seemed like the best deal just quickly searching this morning. |
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Biggest red flag here is you're assuming the seller isn't lying, or an idiot, which is extremely likely. That person is simply a recycler, not a video person of any kind, not the previous owner. It surely came from a lot bought somewhere (example: storage units that wasn't paid, aka Storage Wars; estate sale; etc). You have no idea where the units has been. I doubt this seller even opened it up, to see if it didn't have a pile of oxide that had been shed, mold, dead spiders or roaches, etc. The terms "tested" and "working" are nonsense. This almost always means it was plugged in, and the person saw lights. At best, they put in a ratty old copy of Home Alone (or TMNT, etc), saw any kind of picture, and deemed it "tested". This is insane and ridiculous. The deck surely isn't clean, hasn't had maintenance, etc. You could be ruining your source tapes every time once is inserted. The tapes may not have mold now, but soon might, if the deck wasn't cleaned. Bad eBay buys happen all the time, and the pace of bad buys has become so lopsided now that more bad gear exists than good. Again, that includes "tested" and "working". As a newbie, you'll never know if it truly works correctly. You can open the lid, poke around, but you won't know what you're looking at. It may seem "fine", or it may have some serious issues. You'll surely be able to see the obvious issues, but not all. Heads must be carefully cleaned properly (NO Q-TIPS!), etc, before using. |
I'll vouch for the IOData GV-USB2. I'm in PAL land. The GV-USB2 is as good as my Startech USB3HDCAP, Pinnacle 710USB and the VGB100. See my test with the Hauppauge Live 2 at the link Lollo posted above on Videohelp. Without a line TBC (eg ES-15), the GV-USB2 is superior. With an ES-15 in the flow, they even up.
The GV-USB2 has Japanese instructions but there are English instructions here. I don't use any of the software, only the drivers. The GV-USB 2 is absolutely bulletproof with Windows 10. It just works. Quote:
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As mentioned, this is also true with camera gear from "Japan". Most "Japanese" sellers don't sell on eBay, aside from AV/photo gear. A main reason is that bad gear is cast off to "stupid Americans", while the good gear is sold in-country. Why am I quoting "Japan", you ask? You often find Chinese sellers lying about location, and it doesn't actually come from Japan. Again, "stupid Americans" think all Asian languages are the same anyway. So, for this reason, I'm always extremely wary of Japan/"Japan" buying. It'd actually extremely difficult (and pricey!) to get stuff out of Japan, such as toys, action figures, Blu-ray, comics, etc. There are often specific importers stateside that specialize in these items, export in bulk. Transformers, Gundams, etc. |
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The 3rd party sellers on Amazon are almost always the same sellers on eBay. However, Amazon is quicker to act against shill selling (ie, multiple user market manipulation), as well as counterfeits, which may be why the cards aren't available there at times (until the seller comes back with a new handle). A lot of 3rd party sellers send to Amazon warehouse for shipping, and only ship from there. The eBay listing prices are slightly higher, and the seller drop ships from Amazon. Knowing what I do about capture cards, and the entire Chinese KO scene (video and others), I'm extremely wary of fake GV-USB2 cards. The feedback on these cards often mimics Easycaps. Like variable cards (VC500, early Elgato, Live2, etc), the feedback is very mixed. In the optical media market, that was the result of legit vs. fake media. So good+bad reviews is concerning. (Not just random good+bad, but details and commentary that are revealing, not user error, not false expectations. Not just Amazon reviews, but Reddit and others.) The audio complaints are especially damning, mostly prominent in the past few years only. It may contain known problem cheap reversed-engineered eMPIA audio. What really gives me pause is why PAL lands favor these. Japan is NTSC-J, not PAL. China is PAL. In the optical media market, actual manufacturers would brand media for a locale, and then dump to home countries. So I really do wonder if the GV-USB2 is actually Chinese, branded/rebadged for Japan. The IRE would match for both, a concern of mine for North America NTSC. I can see a scenario where the GV-USB2 was early rebadged for Japan, then production changed cheap (now more Easycap-ish), sold cheap to USA and worldwide. This model card is not new (about 10 years old now), and we've seen this before when "new" cards keep being made, including actual "brand names" like Pinnacle and Hauppauge. I just don't think I'm wrong about this card. Something is up. I'm glad to hear that a couple of forum members enjoy their card, seem to have a positive experience. But I'm not 100% sure it's repeatable. As has happened in the past, I have a strong feeling I'll eventually be proven correct here. :hmm: |
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I also came across this Seems to be in slightly nicer shape and from a more "official" seller. The price ends up being about the same too when taking shipping into consideration. |
That's a recycler. You're looking at abandoned gear, resold by recyclers. They wouldn't know a TBC from a toaster, zero idea about how a VCR should properly work. Most people lose that gamble, and end up wasting immense amounts of time. Too many people have had return hassles (and lose return cases), or missed the return window, so also out lots of money. When you don't really know what you're doing capture-wise, 30 days just is not enough. Those decks can be good after maintenance, realignment, etc. But you probably don't have the skills for it. Or not, total junk decks.
Buying VCRs (and TBCs, and capture cards) used to be far different. Everything was made by reputable manufacturers, sold at places like B&H and Adorama. Now it's the wild west of shady gear, abused gear, etc. There's a reason that most camera gear buyers only buy used gear from places like KEH that specialize in used gear, or from fellow photographers at FredMiranda forums, not random people on eBay/etc (again, too many recyclers). Video gear has no KEH, and this site's marketplace is the forum. Anyway, good luck to you. You'll need it. I do everything I can to help others, to save them from themselves, but some people have to learn this the hard way. Or gamble that they'll luck out (some do, many more don't). |
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https://www.wastecom.com/default.aspx They accept electronic waste from citizens, and recycle it. If it powers up (e.g., lights light and no PBJs in the tape slot) they may try resell it, if not they probably grind it up. What you get is a real crap shoot. Or perhaps more like playing roulette and betting on a number (at least odd/even or red/black bets give you a ~48% chance.) As a minimum, before buying try get them on the phone to determine what, if any testing they do, and get names. If it is within a reasonable drive, visit them if you can and try test it for your self. And missing parts can be a bummer - e.g., obscure remote controls. Buying from auction sites only makes sense if you can afford the risk. Risk is somewhat mitigated if you have the technical skills needed to repair issues you may find and the time to go through the return for refund drill in the case of defective or miss-advertised stuff. |
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Literally, seriously. Not exaggerating here. :screwy: |
What about VCRSHOP?
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For PAL, yes, VCRshop.nl is your guy for VCRs. |
I wish B&H still carried the relevant gear. Who knew back in the day this stuff would be so sought after?
Do you have any suggestions for NA shops? |
lordsmurf! lordsmurf! lordsmurf!
Ahhh...I can smell those smurfbucks coming to me! :laugh: |
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Once upon a time, TGrant was recommended, but then seemingly all the decks he sold started to break, and pissed off most owners. (One of his repairs was apparently so bad that Deter rejected it as possibly irreparable.) If you're looking for "a store", you're SOL, it's just reputable individuals out there now. Even VCRshop is mostly just Branko selling online, not really "a store" that I'm aware of (at most, 1 employee?). We're talking legacy gear, it's not a viable business model. Southern Advantage sells all sorts of items, and for VCRs they stock a lot of crap. Most of it is both more expensive and lesser quality (according to buyers, as per PMs, as per threads here), compared to what I have, even what TGrant had. Don't get into that weird "I only buy new" and "I only buy from stores" mindset. Stores don't give a rat's ass about video quality. They sell stuff, good or bad. They care about the money, everything else be damned. Members of the video community, by contrast, watch after each other. We want others to get good gear, avoid crap. Use good services, avoid quacks. Avoid buying VCRs from anybody in Houston. There's a scammer there, possibly a scam ring, pathetic attitude. He operates under at least a dozen different names. There's an entire thread in the forum dedicated to his BS. Quote:
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