TBC with Sony DHR-1000 for VHS?
Hello friends,
In my naivety volunteered to digitize my mother's home videos from VHS and miniDV over Thanksgiving. Since then, I've been reading the guides, tips, etc. that are available here. I thought this would be an easy project but it's definitely much more complicated than I initially believed. Anyways, I have most of the hardware and software I need for the project, but I can't swing the thousands of dollars for an appropriate TBC. I understand that the opinion here is that this is not an optional piece of equipment (so please don't yell at me). These videos are REALLY important to my mother, so I decided that I'd take a crack at it without the TBC and if the captures weren't good I'd arrange to have the tapes shipped to a professional digitizing service. If nothing else, we'd have an (inferior) digital copy prior to sending out the tapes. HOWEVER, by happenstance, I have a Sony DHR-1000 DV tape deck in my possession. I've never used the thing since I acquired it. According to the user manual and specification sheet, the unit does have a TBC feature, but I'm not able to find any further info on how it works, if it's the right kind of TBC, etc. I've read/skimmed the primers on TBC on this forum, but I'm still rather ignorant/confused about the whole thing. I intend to pass the VHS signal through the Sony and to my capture card. I'm hopeful this will work as intended and improve the capture quality since the hardware is somewhat contemporary and adheres to NTSC format. Anyone have any experience with these Sony units? Will this work the way I want? Any information about this piece of equipment would be appreciated. Here's a link to the mentioned spec sheet (on ManualsLib). TBC is only mentioned a few times in the user manual and doesn't provide any real information (also available on ManualsLib if you're curious). Below are a few more details about my intended setup. As far as I'm aware, there aren't any insurmountable compatibility issues.
*I'm sure this isn't a quality VHS player (only offers composite video output), but it's what my parents have and it plays all their tapes without issues as far as I know. If upgrading to a better player is warranted, I can probably afford to do so. Suggestions are welcome if something is available. Thanks for reading! |
I don't think TBC is applied in passthrough mode for this deck but I could be wrong, DV decks and camcorders as far as I know don't have this feature for passthrough so you will have to go through DV to get the benefit of line TBC. If you intend to use firewire and capture in DV you may get some sort of signal stabilization at the line level.
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I've used the PAL version and yeah it just passes the signal straight through (or does Y/C separation if going composite in -> s-video out which may or may not work better than what's in the capture card.) Even if recording to DV tapes (it doesn't have direct AV in -> DV out like many camcorders) it doesn't do a very good job at handling vhs input and from what I remember lost the signal easily, unlike certain camcorders like the sony digital8 ones which can do a pretty solid job at it. So, unless the NTSC variant is radically different, which I doubt, it won't help much. It's not very good for capturing camcorder miniDV recordings either, struggled with tapes that the sony/canon camcorders had no issues (probably more optimized for DVCAM recordings).
I'd rather suggest trying the dvd-recorder pass-through route as that should help stabilize horizontal wiggle and give a stable signal for the capture card to handle. The one you have should be okay for capturing from the dvd-recorder output from that as long as it allows lossless capture (those capture cards don't work well to capture directly from a VCR.). |
Welcome. :)
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Quality gear holds value. (Not just any random gear, so don't buy random TBC, or "TBCs" aka not actually TBCs.) Quote:
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Thank you, @latreche34, @hodgey, and @lordsmurf. I've been breaking my head on this during most of limited spare time these past few weeks and I appreciate the help!
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I feel a little stuck since I'm leery of buying used equipment as I lack the knowledge/skill to identify the correct components or attempt repair/maintenance on any of this equipment. I'm a little familiar with PC hardware, but analog capture/digital archiving is very much outside my ken. As lordsmurf indicated, even if I went for a digitizing service, I'd have to properly vet the provider which I'm not confident in my ability to do. Quote:
Regarding the quotation specifically: In my defense, I had been misled by a certain popular retrotechnology YouTuber. This person uses one of those $10 USB dongle-type deals which I'm sure would not meet the criteria of the experts here. So, my initial opinions were based on that person's report. Quote:
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As far as evaluating the quality of the audio, etc., I'm afraid I'm too far out of my element. It's rapidly appearing that if I do this, I'll have to take the physical tapes to my setup, rather than bringing my setup to the tapes. I had hoped to work out the capture while staying with my parents over the holiday break. Here's a relevant snippet from the Reddit thread: Quote:
In preparation for the conversion job, I connected the capture card to a NTSC compliant GPU output to verify that the capture worked. When I saw that it looked particularly awful, I ended up finding the Reddit thread, and later, ended up here. Before falling into this world, I was only vaguely familiar with digital captures and hadn't even considered that the default encoder would be bad on an analog capture device. Quote:
Thank you again for your help! To no one in particular, how much should I expect to pay for a reputable digitizing service per hour runtime? P.S. Please excuse any errors I made in composition. I'm working off very little sleep at the moment. |
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Then VCR, then capture card. Quote:
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On behalf of the internet, I'm truly sorry that you were led astray by his BS. ... but you found us now. :) Quote:
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A quick review of the FSM for the DHR-1000 indicates that the "TBC" is not in the pass-thru signal path.
The pass-thru path (for a composite signal) is roughly Input -> Y/C separation -> Input/Playback selection switch -> Y/C mix -> character generator -> output. The chip labeled TBC on the block diagram is a CXD2187AR, it appears to be Sony specific and I cannot find a spec sheet for it. It appears to be used in the record and playback signal paths. The Manual in the link you provided mentions TBC among the Features, but my 1997 Operating Instructions and FSM do not. I suspect the "TBC" function is to provide jitter free pause, slow motion playback, and implement Y/C delay adjustment, all of which could utilize TBC-like functions. Since you already have the unit it costs nothing but time to give it a test in both pass-thru and record (to DV tape) and playback modes to see if there is any benefit to you. (But don't count on it. ) Note that old time SD tube type TVs were very forgiving of VHS signal imperfections and often provided some signal clean-up. Capture cards are generally unforgiving, and modern HDTVs can expose all the warts in the signal. Post capture processing can improve the watchability of video. If considering farming out the digitization as last part of the vetting process send an unimportant tape to your choice to see whether or not they can meet your expectations. |
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A much better (more honest presentation?) would have been a "Here's what the experts say, but I'm satisfied with this inferior method" sort of video. That being said, younger people rely much heavier on YouTube videos for leisure-time education, so I think an honest attempt at trying to share what you learn as a novice is a valid way of making niche topics accessible to modern audiences. Please note that I'm not defending this video/creator in particular. I do believe that there is a non-zero number of videographers on the platform really do it the "right" way. Of course, there are likely more informative videos on the topic available on the platform, but the whole "how social media/big tech/algorithms shape human discourse in the modern era" is fraught with points of concern and is certainly beyond the scope of this humble forum topic. Quote:
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I'm willing to go for another card for this digitization project, but ideally, I'd like to use this particular capture card since it wouldn't require building another retro PC just for VHS capture if the capture workflow becomes a permanent part of my hardware collection. I've read that this model WINTV-HVR-1250 is limited to low framerate (24fps) capture. Reviewing the resources here regarding the All-In-Wonder cards, I'd like to go with the 2006 edition (or other PCIe) if a different card is needed, since I don't have any mobos with AGP. Could someone confirm if these late (PCIe) ATI cards offer ideal quality if I'm capturing with VirtualDub rather than with ATI Multimedia? Quote:
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These are good tips regarding testing to verify TBC functionality, but I don't know if the thing even powers on, so I'm going to focus on getting the VHS captures done the tried and true way described on these forums. Again, this is great information you provided. I'm also aware of the forgiving aspects of CRT televisions. Strangely enough, my rediscovery of CRT displays many moons ago is how I ultimately ended up here. There's some magic in those things. I grew up with CRT televisions and it seems like only yesterday that these were the default rather than a relic of the past. Time sure is a funny thing. Insofar as sending out a test tape to a prospective digitizer, this is also excellent advice. I'll definitely do that if I go that route, but I'm currently resolute on trying to do this myself with the correct equipment. Thanks again to everyone that shared their expertise! |
40 tapes is viable for a DIY. There's many valid reason for DIY, you just need to get good gear to do it. Otherwise you'll probably redo it later, waste more time and money (negative economics). And again, good gear holds value, resells.
You current plan and path seems fine to me. Hauppauge revision is still not complete info, you can have variations within. But it can help narrow down. ATI AIW PCIe 2006 is (I think) the best of the PCIe. Search forum posts to verify, it's been discussed here within the past 5 years. |
Did you mean 40 tapes, or about 40 hours of tape?
Your thread starter said VHS and miniDV, How many VHS, how many miniDV? For the miniDV tapes you should do a Firewire (AKA IEEE1394 and iLink) transfer. It is lossless relative to the material on tape because it amounts to a file copy process. (If you plan to do any restoration/correction of the miniDV video after transfer to the computer is is best to use a lossless intermediate codec when you start that work.) A number other factors that can impact your approach - - do you have a time frame for completion? - what is the intended final distribution format (DVD, youtube, MP4 on a thumb drive, etc)? - how much time are you planning/able to devote to this project, including learning curve time (e.g., a labor of love, or just get it done so you can move on to something else more to you liking)? - what is the condition of the tapes (do they play OK now)? - is the objective the best practicable restoration of the video, or the ability to view it at about the same quality as when played directly from the VCR to the TV set, or something in between? This relates to the expectation of the ultimate consumers and can impact your investment in time and money. - What is the likelyhood you would revisit the project at some point in the future to revise or edit it? - how much upfront investment ($$$) can you make recognizing that you should be able to recover much of it at the end of the project when the gear can be sold. |
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Unfortunately, the DV Camera doesn't have an onboard firewire port, only has composite output. I believe the model is a Sony CCD-TRV36. Since it's composite only, I hoped to introduce the DV tapes into the capture flow through an appropriate VHS deck. Theoretically, I could use the DHR-1000 to capture off the tape directly, or introduce the signal through the composite input on the unit. But as you stated previously, I need to verify that the DV deck is functioning before attempting and that the TBC capability isn't present on the passthrough inputs. I really haven't explored this unit at all so I'm even more ignorant of how it works than the VHS capturing part (if that's possible). So while I'd love to pick your brain about implementing the DV deck, I don't think I've done enough research myself to not waste your time unnecessarily right now. And I don't think it's reasonable to ask you to explain everything to me to accommodate my laziness. For example, I have no idea on what iLink even is. Quote:
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I've done pretty basic video editing in the past and I think I have the ability to teach myself the necessary skills to complete the "post processing" portion of this undertaking. I'm under the impression that even the high quality NTSC captures won't look great on modern displays and I want my mom to actually enjoy playing these back on her modern TV/laptop. I'd like to get the upscaled/color graded/whatever'd files done by end of 2024. I figure it'll take some time to do and the only time critical piece is getting the data off the physical media. Quote:
And she'll be set on Christmas gifts for many years to come :wink2: Quote:
I tested the Sony DV Cam and we played back one of her DV tapes. So I can confirm that the camcorder functions and it's likely that the DV Tapes are in good condition. She didn't have the composite patch cable so we couldn't watch on her system (had to use the awful LCD on the camcorder). Quote:
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Thanks again for the help! |
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I'm so sorry about the misinformation. If I had the equipment on-hand I would have caught this problem. |
The CCD-TRV43 is a slightly more capable (added steadyshot and laser-link) Hi8 camcorder, still mono sound and no s-video output.
The series TRV36/43 could record in Hi8 mode only if a Hi8-coded tape was used. If a standard Video8 tape was used or LP speed was selected it would record in Video8 mode (lower video resolution potential). Lack of s-video output argues against using it to playback Hi8 and Video8 tapes for capture. |
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Also look for oxide shedding, tape flaking. Brand helps. Approx year of tape helps, at worst era (70s, early 80s, late 80s, early 90s, late 90s, 00s) Quote:
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The main problem with analog gear is condition. Everything needs a refurb now. Also how reputable the seller is. And it's almost always a recycler these days, not a video user, and the person wouldn't know the difference between a TBC and a toaster, much less the specifics of how it works, how it should work, etc. Expect zero support from them. There's just a few of us that work on this gear now, NTSC and PAL. But that assumes you even know what to buy. Too many people see the three letters "TBC", make assumptions, and buy random gear from random places. So they'll end up with a device made for U-matic, or TBC remote (ie, not a TBC at all), or the flawed version of a model, or simply a bad unit that should have been good. By simply getting good gear, removing the unknowns, you can now focus on the video. Not simply trying to make random items work. Many folks that try to go cheap end up giving up (hassles), or regretting it later (quality), or both. I've seen this play out so many times over the year. Posts, emails, PMs, offline conversations. |
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@LordSmurf Thanks for the input. I'll definitely inspect the tapes and report back after the holidays. Thanks all! |
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