Sony CCD-TRV65 Hi8 camcorder workflow?

[jmv_]

Need to capture from Sony Handycam CCD-TRV65 8mm Hi-8 Camcorder.

What is the best workflow ?

Is there any value into connecting the HandyCam to a frame TBC ?

Thanks

[fafeco]

Hi,
I have the same camera model. In my case, I have the following workflow, and I'm capturing with the recommended VirtualDub software version that you can find in this forum with the recommended HuffYUV lossless codec and a dedicated Windows XP computer:

CCD-TRV65E -> S-Video -> ATI AIW 8500 DV (AGP card)
CCD-TRV65E -> RCA (audio) -> PCI sound card (Echo Darla model, although the forum's recommended one is the PCI Turtle Beach Santa Cruz card)

Let me start by admitting that the optimum workflow would include a frame TBC before the capture card. The capture card can be any of the recommended on this forum. With my capture card I always have dropped frames every time the video starts/stops (when the camera displays the blue screen), or when the tape is physically wrinkled and thus the synchronization pulses are messed. With the default VirtualDub configuration recommended in this forum, the software takes care of these drops by stretching the sound track to maintain the video-audio synchronization, creating slight audio pitch variations. In conclusion, the lack of frame TBC is not the optimal solution as VirtualDub ends up messing with the audio to achieve the video-audio synchronization, so the best way to solve this would be to include a frame TBC or at least some kind of TBC-like device as the Panasonic DMR-ES10/15 DVD recorder in passthrough. However, I have found that my tapes have been originally recorded from start to end with very few starts/stops and they are in good condition, so I find this effect bearable as it happens only a few times.
Regarding the camera settings, be sure to have the internal TBC set to "ON". There are two more important settings, the DNR (Digital Noise Reduction) and EDIT settings, which are by default ON and OFF respectively and help in reducing the video noise. I prefer to deactivate them by setting them OFF and ON respectively, as I prefer to capture and archive the most raw output of the camera and do any post-processing in Avisynth later on.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmv_

Need to capture from Sony Handycam CCD-TRV65 8mm Hi-8 Camcorder.
What is the best workflow ?
Is there any value into connecting the HandyCam to a frame TBC ?
Thanks

Standard workflow applies: VCR/camera > TBC > capture card

Some form of TBC is always require, and ideally an actual frame TBC if you want quality conversions. The TRV65 should have line TBC to clean the image, so something like the ES10/15 can actual conflict and make matters worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fafeco

In conclusion, the lack of frame TBC is not the optimal solution as VirtualDub ends up messing with the audio to achieve the video-audio synchronization,

Correct,

Quote:

so the best way to solve this would be to include a frame TBC or at least some kind of TBC-like device as the Panasonic DMR-ES10/15 DVD recorder in passthrough.

This.

Actual TBC truly fixes, ES10/15 still imperfect and adds noise/problems to image. There are also line TBC conflicts with certain devices, and Hi8 with-TBC cameras can be one of those.

[jmv_]

VCR/camera > TBC > capture card

Which of VCR/Camera outputs ? I assume S-Video over RCA, correct ?
Can I connect S-Video to a AVT-8120 Frame TBC or I have to use the RCA ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Standard workflow applies: VCR/camera > TBC > capture card

Some form of TBC is always require, and ideally an actual frame TBC if you want quality conversions. The TRV65 should have line TBC to clean the image, so something like the ES10/15 can actual conflict and make matters worse.


Correct,


This.

Actual TBC truly fixes, ES10/15 still imperfect and adds noise/problems to image. There are also line TBC conflicts with certain devices, and Hi8 with-TBC cameras can be one of those.

[lordsmurf]

s-video, preferably, if available. On most Hi8 cameras, composite is actually not terrible. The 8120 is composite only.

[jmv_]

Thanks for the info fafeco.

I did set the DNR and EDIT OFF and ON respectively.
Any reason why DNR should be off ?

With respect to Windows, is XP a better option than the latest versions ?

Bare with me, I have not yet started capturing anything.
I am just getting my workflow figured out and setting up.

I have given up on using my Macbook Pro based on forum discussions.
I will be using my son's 2009 Dell Alienware Area51 PC.

I have AVT-8120 frame TBC and a ATI Wonder 600 USB capture card.

JM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fafeco

Hi,
I have the same camera model. In my case, I have the following workflow, and I'm capturing with the recommended VirtualDub software version that you can find in this forum with the recommended HuffYUV lossless codec and a dedicated Windows XP computer:

CCD-TRV65E -> S-Video -> ATI AIW 8500 DV (AGP card)
CCD-TRV65E -> RCA (audio) -> PCI sound card (Echo Darla model, although the forum's recommended one is the PCI Turtle Beach Santa Cruz card)

Let me start by admitting that the optimum workflow would include a frame TBC before the capture card. The capture card can be any of the recommended on this forum. With my capture card I always have dropped frames every time the video starts/stops (when the camera displays the blue screen), or when the tape is physically wrinkled and thus the synchronization pulses are messed. With the default VirtualDub configuration recommended in this forum, the software takes care of these drops by stretching the sound track to maintain the video-audio synchronization, creating slight audio pitch variations. In conclusion, the lack of frame TBC is not the optimal solution as VirtualDub ends up messing with the audio to achieve the video-audio synchronization, so the best way to solve this would be to include a frame TBC or at least some kind of TBC-like device as the Panasonic DMR-ES10/15 DVD recorder in passthrough. However, I have found that my tapes have been originally recorded from start to end with very few starts/stops and they are in good condition, so I find this effect bearable as it happens only a few times.
Regarding the camera settings, be sure to have the internal TBC set to "ON". There are two more important settings, the DNR (Digital Noise Reduction) and EDIT settings, which are by default ON and OFF respectively and help in reducing the video noise. I prefer to deactivate them by setting them OFF and ON respectively, as I prefer to capture and archive the most raw output of the camera and do any post-processing in Avisynth later on.

[jmv_]

So if I want to connect S-Video to TBC for the best results, do you have any for sell ?
If not, which TBCs do you recommend ?
Would this one on eBay do the job ?

I bought the 8120 from you but composite only

Thanks
JM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

s-video, preferably, if available. On most Hi8 cameras, composite is actually not terrible. The 8120 is composite only.

[fafeco]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmv_

Thanks for the info fafeco.

I did set the DNR and EDIT OFF and ON respectively.
Any reason why DNR should be off ?

DNR (Digital Noise Reduction) in this camera model means that the colour part of the video signal is averaged among several neighbouring frames, a really simple method that was achievable with 1998 technology. It is really effective on reducing colour noise, but as it is performed in real time the tradeoff is that it doesn't have the ability to detect scene changes or fast movements, so sometimes the color from a previous scene can be observed for a really short time (milliseconds) in the next scene, or the colour of an object (for instance, a soccer ball with fast movement) is left hanging in a previous position in these kind of scenes. Bear in mind that this is only detectable when inspecting the video frame by frame or when looking actively for it, and most people won't ever notice these tradeoffs. In fact, with DNR=OFF this averaging is not completely disabled but it is performed more lightly. My philosophy in video is to capture the most raw signal possible, bypassing the processing performed by the camera, both for archiving purposes of the original signal on the tape, and because software-based filtering with plugins (with AviSynth or other software packages) in theory can produce the same or better results than these really basic methods implemented in such old cameras. Thus, the DNR=OFF and EDIT=ON are the settings that I would recommend, as I have found that they disable the filtering performed by the camera.
The EDIT=OFF setting also reduces colour noise by "blurring" the colour signal inside each frame, which means that colorful objects against a monochromatic background have their colour lightly spilled over their edges into the background part. EDIT=ON disables this effect.
In the end, these settings are a matter of taste, so I would encourage you to perform test captures and see which configurations suit you the most. For instance, I have read people in this forum that set their camera with the opposite settings that I'm recommending, as it saves you time in post-processing at the cost of these minor tradeoffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmv_

With respect to Windows, is XP a better option than the latest versions ?

The only reason for me to use Windows XP is that it is the latest OS with drivers support for my capture card. In your case, according to LordSmurf in this thread, the ATI 600 USB has support up to Windows 7, so I would you use this one and follow the instructions in the thread. Just be sure to make a fresh Windows 7 install and set up only the bare minimum software for it to work as a capture machine, i.e. the ATI drivers and VirtualDub, and have a physically different HDD dedicated for the video capture. Ideally you shouldn't install any antivirus and avoid connecting the PC to internet, as both things can disturb the video capturing task. Your DELL PC should be more than sufficient for this task, in my case I am using a much older Pentium IV machine with 2 GB of RAM that is also perfectly capable for video capture.

[jmv_]

Thank you so much for all your valuable input.
Very informative and helpful
JM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fafeco

DNR (Digital Noise Reduction) in this camera model means that the colour part of the video signal is averaged among several neighbouring frames, a really simple method that was achievable with 1998 technology. It is really effective on reducing colour noise, but as it is performed in real time the tradeoff is that it doesn't have the ability to detect scene changes or fast movements, so sometimes the color from a previous scene can be observed for a really short time (milliseconds) in the next scene, or the colour of an object (for instance, a soccer ball with fast movement) is left hanging in a previous position in these kind of scenes. Bear in mind that this is only detectable when inspecting the video frame by frame or when looking actively for it, and most people won't ever notice these tradeoffs. In fact, with DNR=OFF this averaging is not completely disabled but it is performed more lightly. My philosophy in video is to capture the most raw signal possible, bypassing the processing performed by the camera, both for archiving purposes of the original signal on the tape, and because software-based filtering with plugins (with AviSynth or other software packages) in theory can produce the same or better results than these really basic methods implemented in such old cameras. Thus, the DNR=OFF and EDIT=ON are the settings that I would recommend, as I have found that they disable the filtering performed by the camera.
The EDIT=OFF setting also reduces colour noise by "blurring" the colour signal inside each frame, which means that colorful objects against a monochromatic background have their colour lightly spilled over their edges into the background part. EDIT=ON disables this effect.
In the end, these settings are a matter of taste, so I would encourage you to perform test captures and see which configurations suit you the most. For instance, I have read people in this forum that set their camera with the opposite settings that I'm recommending, as it saves you time in post-processing at the cost of these minor tradeoffs.




The only reason for me to use Windows XP is that it is the latest OS with drivers support for my capture card. In your case, according to LordSmurf in this thread, the ATI 600 USB has support up to Windows 7, so I would you use this one and follow the instructions in the thread. Just be sure to make a fresh Windows 7 install and set up only the bare minimum software for it to work as a capture machine, i.e. the ATI drivers and VirtualDub, and have a physically different HDD dedicated for the video capture. Ideally you shouldn't install any antivirus and avoid connecting the PC to internet, as both things can disturb the video capturing task. Your DELL PC should be more than sufficient for this task, in my case I am using a much older Pentium IV machine with 2 GB of RAM that is also perfectly capable for video capture.

[jmv_]

Lordsmurf ?

Do you mind providing your input ?
Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmv_

So if I want to connect S-Video to TBC for the best results, do you have any for sell ?
If not, which TBCs do you recommend ?
Would this one on eBay do the job ?

I bought the 8120 from you but composite only

Thanks
JM

[lordsmurf]

Do not buy this.

No, SKNet is a line TBC based on faulty Panasonic chips, essentially a bad beta-quality ES10. It barfs rainbows all over the place. If line TBC is all you want, then the ES10 is vastly cheaper and better.

The seller is spreading misinformation by stating "works nearly on par to the quality as a Datavideo or an AV tool works".

The listing links to Emerald Coast Digitizing on Youtube, which is a mixed bad on advice, with lots of low-end gear in use. Amusingly, somebody else on that video commented that this is only a line TBC.

I'll read this thread again, but I felt it important to write this now, before you make a buying mistake.

As far as what I have available, you/anybody can PM me, or view my marketplace listings. At this exact moment, I have two units total. Quality TBCs are getting hard to find now.

SKNet is not a quality TBC. If it was, I'd sell it, and own multiples for myself. I do not, on purpose.

[jmv_]

LorsdSmurf,

Once again your input is so much appreciated. Thank you.

You sold me the AVT-8120 Frame TBC but I cannot connect the S-Video output of my Camcorder or VHS to it.

Do you have a Frame TBC that has S-Video input and output for sale ?

PS : I have purchased the JVC HR-S9500U and a Windows 7 Dell Computer.
My hardware workflow is almost complete except for the Frame TBC.

JM

-- merged --

LordSmurf,

According to ChatGPT the JVC HR-S9500U that I have purchased has both Line and Frame TBC.
I assume if that is correct that I do not need a separate Frame TBC box.
I do not know how accurate ChatGPT is.
So do you agree/disagree with the response below from ChatGPT ?

Thanks
JM

Quote:

ChatGPT :
Q: Does the JVC HR-S9500U have Line and Frame TBC
Yes, the JVC HR-S9500U is a high-end S-VHS VCR that includes both Line and Frame Time Base Correction (TBC) functionalities. Here are the details:
Line TBC:
• Function: The JVC HR-S9500U has a built-in Line TBC that corrects timing errors on a line-by-line basis. This helps to stabilize horizontal jitter and reduce horizontal distortions in the video signal.
Frame TBC:
• Function: It also includes a Frame TBC, which corrects timing errors on a frame-by-frame basis. This provides comprehensive stabilization for both horizontal and vertical sync issues, ensuring smooth and consistent playback of the entire video frame.
Additional Features:
• Digital Noise Reduction (DNR): The HR-S9500U also features digital noise reduction, which helps to further clean up the video signal by reducing random noise and improving overall picture quality.
• Built-in 3D Y/C Comb Filter: This filter enhances the separation of luminance (Y) and chrominance (C) signals, reducing color bleeding and improving color accuracy.
In summary, the JVC HR-S9500U is equipped with both Line and Frame TBC functionalities, making it an excellent choice for ensuring high-quality playback and transfer of VHS and S-VHS tapes.

[lordsmurf]

No VCR has a frame TBC.

ChatGPT is so full of misinformation.

ChatGPT is sourced from random information. My favorite is still where it suggests eating rocks daily is good for you. We live in an age of misinformation, disinformation, lies, and complete BS. ChatGPT fits in this era perfectly.

[vwestlife]

Definitely turn the Handycam's DNR off, as it causes obvious color trailing artifacts.

But its built-in TBC should be good enough for most purposes. I'd trust it more than I'd trust an external TBC of dubious quality.