How to find new Panasonic AG-1980?
 

Hello everyone, I'm looking to buy a new 1980 and I'm not really concerned about price. I know how expensive that's gonna be. Does anyone know someone or somewhere I can buy one? I need it for a test.

Not interested in hearing opinions that refurbs are just as good or offers for refurbs. I just want a new one.

So you want a new item that hasn't been produced in 20 years?

And even if you do find a "new" boxed unit, do you realize that caps/parts aged, used or not? Therefore, it's not really "new" in any way.

What's new is the drum. I need an untouched drum and I would be recapping myself.

I've seen new replacement head drums pop up occasionally, but not very often.

I will say that I've yet to see a worn out AG1980 drum for the purposes of playback and I've refurbished about 20 of them. I've read that the true test for drum wear is to make a fresh recording, then play it back on the same machine. I'm more interested in their playback ability, so I haven't really done much in the way of recording testing.

What makes you think your current head drum is bad? Do you have a capture sample?

I know curiosity killed the cat but I’m kind of wondering what the test is. The 1980s aren’t the same from year to year. The 1980p ags are different than the regular 1980s.

You will be better off looking for a new old stock video drum, Finding a new VCR could take years if ever.

To add some perspective here:

I was aware of the AG-1980P in the late 90s and early 00s, but those were $2000+ decks, at a time when the JVC were ~$500. Not $2000 now, but $2000 back 20+ years ago. People gripe about gear costs now, but they have no idea.

In the mid/late 2000s (about 2007), I was forced to acquire my own unit used (as it was no longer produced or sold new). It lasted about 3 years with light use, before I had to get a Jots repair/recap. I have literally never owned an AG-1980P that didn't require repairs/refurbs within a few years. Never, not a one. The deck is a money pit. Of all the repairs to date, Deter's work has lasted the longest (though his earlier work did fail me once).

I have never seen a "new" in-box unit. :2cents:

I keep my eye out for VCRs worthy of buying, and that sort of unit is on my radar. Somebody tried to sell a used in-box unit for a stupid price, $5k+, some years ago. But that was an eBay idiot that didn't even know why the VCR was sought after, random price on a random condition VCR. Nobody ever bought it, at least not from eBay. He may have found a local sucker.

I have come across a unit that was cosmetically perfect, and did work well for all of 6 months. I bought this from somebody I've known for almost 20 years, and it was her backup unit, that she bought new. It's rare to find a situation like this.

I do have an original box somewhere, but I think the padding disintegrated. I think it's silly, but if anybody ever wanted to buy my box, I'd sell it. I know there are VCR collectors on this site. I have boxes for most models of JVC S-VHS VCRs, and some Panasonics like the AG-1980P.

The "test" for wear that I was referring to is in general for VCRs (not specific to the AG1980), several threads suggest that head wear is most noticeable in making recordings as opposed to playing back recordings. I guess that kind of makes sense since magnetizing a tape appropriately is probably more dependent on the condition of the heads than reading from one. There's a lot more leeway in reading a tape since a lot of the electronics can compensate for less than ideal signals due to slight mistracking or slight variations on the playback versus recording VCR. I've yet to find an AG1980 that has obvious head wear when it comes to playback, so I haven't really done the test myself.

As for the AG1980 vs 1980P, I kind of think that's a myth. Try finding a single AG1980 without the "P" at the end of the model number sticker on ebay or really anywhere on the internet. All the units I've ever seen are "P" variants.

There is one variant that no one really likes to work on that can be identified by the TBC having a bunch of extra wires coming off of it, but even those still have a "P" in the model number though, see below. I probably should have taken a picture of the back side as these wires are attached all over the place.

Attachment 18393

I should of been more clear. I was wondering about that test the OP was talking about. I know he wouldn’t be testing head ware since it would be on new heads. I was just being nosey.

When I got mine refurbished they wrote 32 34 microns on the top of the drum because they measured it. The guide rollers, caps etc… will go out before the heads. I’ve seen videos where people supposedly get new old stock 1980s but that’s a huge hunt.

I think if you want the best 1980 then you should talk to Deter and tell him money is not a problem at all. I want the best you have. It you tell someone that knows these well and is a trusted refurbisher that money isn’t a problem then you’ll get something really good and it’ll save you a whole lot of time.

People get sometimes crazy and nostalgic about something, that's all, There is no such test.

I stumbled onto a boxed “new” Panasonic 1980p ag and I thought about this thread so I’m posting it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/19679171835...mis&media=COPY

I realize it’s probably not really unused because they don’t even have the original power cord but that’s the point that is made in this thread. The seller also has quite a few items and probably doesn’t know much about the Panny.

There is no indication it's new, I can clean something to look as good or better than that one, but I'm not into scamming people, The storage condition for that unit doesn't look great by looking at the box, so it was clearly stored in a non climate controlled environment, such as a garage, an attic or a backyard shed. So this will most likely needs a thorough mec cleanup and lubrication, full board recap and hope it is not used heavily so you don't need mechanical parts.

I agree. I’m mainly trying to point out that the original box doesn’t mean anything.

I think the OPs definition of “new” is unused. In the pictures it says it was opened and pretested by Ocean Systems. To me that seems like they are trying to give a reason for the tape being off. Who knows how much that has been used. If it hasn’t been used much I wonder why is the cord not the original cord. A lot of eBay sellers probably wouldn’t mention that isn’t the original cord.

There’s clues on this listing like the dust on top of the box. You can see his thumb print in some pictures and they aren’t there in other pictures. If he would of wiped that off then the poor storage conditions wouldn’t of been as obvious.

Here’s his description:
This comes with the original box, the unit itself, the foam, and a power cord. The power cord is not originally for the unit itself.
The unit powers on but shuts off after a couple seconds.
I am listing as parts and repair due to this. I figured someone would be able to fix this.

It’s probably not a given that caps are all that are wrong with boxed units.

I wonder about boxed gear. I had talked to someone that bought a boxed TBC 1000 and had to replace the caps then he replaced them and it still doesn’t work. It makes me wonder how often boxed gear doesn’t work.

The box looks like it has sat in an attic for more than a few years before it was "found" by the "Central Ohio Finds" outfit that listed it.

No remote, manual, cables, plastic bag to keep the Styrofoam particles from entering the mechanism, but with a replacement power cord.

It is listed as not working and "for parts" which sounds honest. Price looks way too high for that condition Wonder if the immediate power off is due to a tape jammed inside?

Good point. There’s a good amount of clues it’s used.

The 1980s always seem like they are overpriced on eBay. A lot of times the sellers see prices and don’t seem to realize that they aren’t worth much unless they are refurbished.

It's about as "new" (virgin) as a wrinkly gray-haired hooker. :laugh:

FYI, when a person lays a VCR upside down, you know he/she is an idiot. Unless it's in the process of being worked on, VCRs should never be placed upside down. Lots of VCRs are ruined in the mail this way, because boxes are not properly labeled with "this side up" arrows.

The seller is a clueless recycler, his/her/their username reveals that, along with selling tons of random junk. Never buy VCRs from those people.

Haha but she said she was.

Always a good idea to view what types of other items a seller is offering. In this case the seller was doing almost clothing and collectable merch. The 1980 was the only VCR and there were only a couple other technology items among 1000 or so items. Obviously not their forte. And a reason to be cautions.

Again, they did not overstate the condition, although the price is way out of sight for a parts only box. So flog the seller for the asking price, but not the stated condition.

Did Panasonic mark the box "this side up"?

The "test" is I plan to do a fair, unbiased vhs-decode vs traditional capture comparison. I have high quality 1m video s cables, aiw card, just got the vcr (i have new panasonic caps for the tbc im going to solder), next thing i need is the external tbc. I built a domesday duplicator with custom immersion gold solder points for better contact. This will be my test VCR. Nobody from my understanding has made a fair comparison between the two. They use low grade vcrs, bad capture cards, etc. I think with the progress of vhs-decode, it would be nice for the community to decide what setup truly looks the best. Only way to do that is by doing this.

Yes, but it was often too tiny to notice, even when looking for it.

Correct, no good comparisons to date. Just lots of composite/VHS junk, often blatantly misleading.

The whole vhs-decode process has gotten very "development hellish" lately. Every time I look, they're discussing some new hardware/mod/tweak/whatever. I can't even follow along anymore.

What really amuses me is how they're finally adopting dedicated hardware for tasks -- which is something they (especially the head cheerleader Harry) heavily criticized me for in recent past years. How dare I suggest vhs-decode will need more than just a thrift store VCR, Aliexpress CX card, and Linux scripts! Blasphemy! :laugh:

My fear is what I described in a post on VH yesterday. Whatever you do to test, they'll move the goalposts. "Oh, that's outdated, do this now" ... but that "outdated" was actually new just a few months earlier. I've seen this game before.

I was going to do this with my Panasonic AG-1970 deck (as the decode deck), but then it failed, and I lost interest, no time anyway (at that time, last year).

But now I'm in process of winding down a lot of my "for others" projects, including some long-term difficult projects (as seen in a recent Reddit post, and taken vastly out of context by the peanut gallery there). I'm also reducing my VCR refurb work. I need a break, before I break.

But this? Well, this might be just the sort of video-related fun I need.

What sort of deck are you using as your vhs-decode VCR?
Same for the non-decode deck?

I have an idea how we can cooperate, and I can test this again my full test library of tapes. :devil:

I agree, The difference from the RF into the vhs-decode and the RF going through the VCR's own processing boards is going to be very minimal, Using a newer generation VCR that has in chip processing like the late 90's high end JVC S-VHS machines would probably tip the balance towards the VCR processing being better than the VHS-decode, The AG-1980 is an old beast, still uses some analog processing. No need to an external TBC if looking only for visual differences. And yes, so far, most comparisons done used cheap easycaps, We challenged them to a fair comparison using the same tape passed around and none of them accepted the challenge.

I would more agree that "RF in software (vhs-decode) is unable to surpass RF into dedicated VCR chips". Sometimes it's the same, sometimes it's very much not the same.

Do you have any documentation on this? I need to go into R&D mode again, orchestrate some actions.

There is a JVC technical guide floating somewhere, I think it was uploaded by OLN here and on VH.

I'm going to use the same 1980p for both vhs-decode and traditional capture. The one I just bought is in very good shape, original, just needs a recap (so far lol). Yea, if you follow the discord, it's overwhelming how many tweaks people are posting on there and the learning curve is wild. I don't understand why people are going out of their way to use that crappy ali-express card because if they're already this deep into it, they might as well just save the money and buy the duplicator. It has better quality. Plus, people seem to forget that vcr heads vary in quality and signal strength, so I don't know why they're buying these combo thrift store decks.

Also, whats the deal with the vhs-decode subreddit? It's like the biggest echo chamber known to man. I get it. You're skeptical. But for people to call you a scammer and just be all around rude? I don't understand that.

When/if I finally get all the tools I need, I can give you information, results, and comparisons if you're interested.

Some engineers spent their entire career developing the VCR technology from the early top loading ancient decks all the way to SoC (system on the chip), JVC in particular went great lengths on making sure they stay on top of everyone else, Their B.E.S.T (a.k.a video calibration) makes sure the signal is at its peak even with worn heads or worn tapes by adjusting heads' coils current, TBC and chroma noise reduction ensures stable and clean images, None of this can be achieved by a cheap VCR, If the RF signal is screwed by a cheap VCR, there is little you can do to iron it out. All what the vhs-decode system is doing in my opinion is just changing the way the scan lines are digitized and saved, that's all.

This is one of my more textbook-y type posts...

My biggest problem with vhs-decode is all the nonsense about software TBC.

I was researching TBCs before most of them were even born. Some of those guys use technobabble tactics (ie, repeating jargon to "sound smart") to hide their lack of knowledge. Harry, the now-22-year-old, that only just started learning video in the past 4 years (ie, a bored teenager in the pandemic), is very guilty of it. He fools some newbies, but that's about it. As a Pickles comic read years ago, "if you can't explain it in plain English, you don't understand it yourself".

TBCs are essentially A<>D not too different from the RF/FM/decode/whatever methods. But the key ingredient is how that's done, and how the signal is processed. It's not a simple matter of a generic FPGA and off-the-shelf scripting. To even suggest that shows total lack of knowledge, akin to wanting to attach a lawnmower engine to a bicycle to make a motorcycle. But actual TBCs, actual motorcycles, require lots of R&D. There is a secret sauce to making a safe and effective product.

The basic concept of a semiconductor (semis, chips) is that it is designed with a base instruction set (essentially hardcoded/hardwired), and some user customizable area within those instructions (essentially sub-instructions). Well, video is complex, lots of data, lots of instructions.

- In the early/mid 90s, the reason for TBC weakness/inaccuracy was lack of the user customizable area, paired with non-robust/slow I/O.
- In the late 90s to early 00s, we got massive strides in RAM, some boosts to processing. TBCs really hit their stride, with great promise to come in just one more hardware generation -- TBCs that acted as capture devices with many options! (Yes, there are SDI boxes, but those are primitive tech compared to what should have existed.)

Sadly, this promising TBC generation never happened. The 08-09 recession (aka, the GFC, the Great Financial Crisis) harmed (or bankrupted) a lot of companies. Anything that was legacy (like analog related gear) at those companies was cut to reduce expenses, for the future survival of the company. That's why a lot of devices ceased to exist within 1 year of 2009 (2008-2010). In the now-2020s there is no ROI for the R&D.

So post-GFC, now we had a new problem. The chips needed were no longer being fabbed. Analog was old anyway, right? So no more hardcoded instructions needed. Some TBC companies tried to adjust to similar chips, but all failed (for example, the Cypress "black" generation of TBCs -- as I think Cypress tried to use old instructions with new/different chips).

The datasheets/specs for many of these chips is online, freely given out -- though not all, and some require expensive paid relationships (especially anything Intel/Alterra/etc). So there's a lot of amateur/Dunning-Kruger when it comes to old semiconductors. The vhs-decode community reeks of it, like rotting fish.

In the 80s-00s (and there was no 10s-20s), this was all treated as "trade secrets". Not just the on-chip code, but sometimes even the chip used (ie, sanded chips). Almost everything from that era is bitlocked, sometimes with self-destruct code if intrusion is detected.

The FM/RF/decode/whatever projects all attempt to recreate hardware, but they're only able to do it from a very rudimentary level, based on the bare hardcoding of the chips. They have no access to, often no concept of, the additional user-added instructions. So no secret sauce, maybe some ketchup at most.

To effectively craft TBC code, you need a code wizard that can extrapolate from a test library of thousands of tapes, combined with scoping. Harry/others have this naive idea that "open source will solve it", but there's zero control over the quality of the coders, or the quality of the testing library. It's all random. Thus why we see random results from the project, and why everything must be tweaked and re-tweaked ad nauseum. Tweaking in itself is not progress, sometimes it's just spinning your wheels, ie "development hell".

I've had a lot of people contact me over the years, wanting to remake TBCs/VCRs/whatever. But all it took for me was a single conversation with them (often over the phone) to realize they had no clue, they didn't know what they didn't know. I always kindly declined. (Well, there was one person that did impress me, "hmm, a smart labradoodle!", but that's a story for another day.)

vhs-decode is essentially fully reinventing the TBC wheel, and they're literally decades behind the curve. We now have unlimited RAM, but the ARM/x86 processing power is still vastly inferior/slower to FPGA/SoC/GPU/whatever from even a decade ago.

My initial thought process for vhs-decode -- long before Harry was involved, then mostly just hodgey/oln's own project -- was to attempt the next-gen "capturing TBC" that never existed. But they wanted to screw around with thrift store junk, act like asses on Reddit, and tinker for the sake of tinkering. Fine, whatever, I have videos to convert, no time for BS.

Somebody will eventually fork this commercially, more attuned to my idea, and I've already heard whispers in backchannels.

Unlike what some of these Reddit fanboys think, I'm not married to TBCs, or VCRs, or capture cards. I just use the tools available for the quality needed, as well as refurb gear (and yes, sell it, capitalism, the horror!) for quality-seeking members/readers of this site. If the new tool was better, I'd adopt it. But it's not. vhs-decode is a new inferior tool. I have no doubts that tests will prove this fact, so I'm all for it. At best, it's just different, as latreche34 writes. At worst, it's a primitive attempt to recreate 20-30 years old hardware tech.

I actually want to get with you Slushly, so I can confirm your findings. :)

(At very most, I do see some niche situations where VCR modulation causes bleeding not correctable in Avisynth. That bleeding/noise reduces sharpness in a roundabout way. In those atypical scenarios, I have seem vhs-decode samples that better allow the NR, and retain the sharpness better. So it has some use, and could be just another tool in the toolkit. This is something I've stated for years now. I have test tapes waiting for this.)

When I look at the story of SingMai/Daniel, it reminds me of the VHS-decode project, Daniel was an ambitious guy, Besides other video projects related to his business, there was this VCR project that I was interested in, He actually approached it better than the vhs-decode team, He made everything hardware, Took the guts of a VCR, put it in an enclosure, attached two RF boards (I guess the second one was reserved for HiFi in the future), He built the decoding and digitization stages on a physical circuit board and made the output a legal rec.601 SD 4:2:2 interlaced video with digital audio over SDI, Not sure exactly what happens and the projects was abandoned.

He then focused on an old project of digitization of Y-C, composite and analog audio in 2 or 3 devices, namely the SM03, He almost perfected it, then the pandemic hit. Fast forward few years later, he gave it another shot but he had trouble finding the original chips he was using due to the chip shortage back then, The new ones did not perform as expected and were like 3 times more expensive, With little bit of patience, modification and tweaking he was able to overcome most of the problems he had with these new chips and then.... it was total silence, completely disappeared, no answer to e-mails, the website is gone.

The moral story is, if a company with engineers on the payroll could not pull it off, no one can. Don't get me wrong, I know there is Apple, Youtube, Facebook, Tesla ...etc started by dreamers working in their garages, But this is an obsolete task, aimed to a very specific group of people, Not the masses.

I hope they succeed, I really do, but not something I'm crossing my fingers for. Looking forward to comparison tests from the OP.

This is the common vaporware scenario that I've seen countless times over the years, even from large companies.

I'm not sure about "no one can", but you definitely cannot as a broke kid with an attitude. This stuff takes time and funding -- and realize that time is a valuable asset, even more than money, something that vhs-decode fans seem to not understand.

I've said this for years now. :unsure:

So it's odd that Harry (and his flock) direct all this hate my way (and lies, and BS). You'd think I'd have told them I hope it fails (or worse). But no, I did not. They're just unhinged, seemingly pissed off that I don't worship at their alter, and will not join their cult that sees only perfection and no flaws.

Ah, but you are overlooking something! The pivot. (Well, actually two things. "Garage" is a common myth. It's almost always bedrooms, rarely garages..)

Companies start with an idea, but it almost never happens that way.

- Youtube was started by lonely/single/horny Paypal employees wanting to make a dating site.
- Facebook was started by lonely/single/horny Harvard student to rate how hot a campus chick was.
- Tesla was more about the "E" than the "V", and years before Musk showed up.
- Apple did start as a niche computer hardware company, then floundered for about 25 years, almost collapsing twice. But then they pivoted and started to see extreme success in the past 2 decades. Those niche computers (Mac) sales are now only 7.5% of revenue, while iPhones and apps are about 75% revenue.

Successful companies, or even careers, almost never end up where initially conceived. My own video career was an accident -- the result of a hobby (video), a job (in another field) that ended before my first day (due to 9/11), and wanting to eat.

It's a lack of a pivot -- lack of leadership, lack of vision -- that ends in failure. Burying your head in the sand is far easier to do that to foresee what comes next. Many of the vhs-decode guy think they're the "way of the future", but analog videotapes are the past. They're fighting a war that ended almost 20 years ago. It's their hobby, their pet project, and they're not too different from (U.S.) Civil War reenactors.

I've purchased multiple new AG-1980's before. I've found them by luck and did pay the premium. Just know though, a new 1980 is still a 25-year-old AG-1980 and those require the same recap work that a used one requires. I've confirmed this myself.