Recommended workflow for digitizing miniDV tapes?

[halopower]

What VCRs can you recommend for my work? I only want to capture material from mini DV tapes. On the digitalFAQ forum I saw a list of recommended VCRs for HVS (and derivatives):

https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...ing-guide.html

However, I have not come across such a review of VCRs for mini DV??

Thank you very much for all your help

[aramkolt]

MiniDV, being a digital format, really doesn't matter which playback device you use as long as it has firewire output (and you capture off of it) as that digital data stream comes out exactly as it is stored on the tape and is a truly lossless capture. There are exceptions if the tape is damaged, appears blocky, or is mistracking, but if the picture and audio appear clear, you should be good to go. Digital errors are usually easily visible because you'll see large areas of blockiness.

Most consumer tapes are going to be recorded in regular DV format, but you could run into some odd formats like HDV, or LP tapes. DVCPro could also be recorded onto the same miniDV tapes, but you are unlikely to run into odd formats unless they are from a professional environment.

So basically the general wisdom is to use a low hours consumer camera that is in good cosmetic condition and not likely to have had many tapes through it. Professional DV decks can have a lot more hours on them because a lot more tapes have been through them particularly to justify their higher initial cost and typical use case.

On that note, most professional DV decks do usually have drum hours meters so you can tell just how used they actually are, but most sellers won't bother doing the steps to check it through the menus.

Some pro DV decks can play tapes that others won't due to fancy internal error correction and/or dynamic tracking, but most transfers are unlikely to ever require those more advanced features.

[timtape]

On the upside there are still second hand cameras for sale. Panasonic. Sony and JVC were major brands. On the downside it's only second hand now and condition (working condition) can be unknown. A camera might have been in perfect running condition when last used 10 or 15 years ago but even well stored in a cupboard, the camera and its internal parts can deteriorate.

These little devices were a marvel of miniaturised design in their day but in the long run that stands against them. Some camera technicians dont like them because of the difficulty of working on such delicate and tiny mechanisms. New spare parts are virtually non existent.

Obviously test a camcorder using an unimportant recording. Having acquired a likely good working camcorder, try and acquire a good reputable cleaning tape and use it according to the instructions.

If possible have a good camcorder tech go over the unit before you use it in earnest. Have them perform a general inspection and full tape path clean, which is actually quite difficult to perform.

SP recording was recommended. LP was not because picture and sound was less reliable, especially when playing back an LP recorded tape on other camcorders where slight misalignments came into play. Having said that, I recorded many tapes in the economical LP mode and most of them have transferred with only minor errors at worst.

We've understandably become more casual about USB and flash memory. While these tiny video tape recordings generally last fine if stored well, they can be easily physically damaged just be being played in a camcorder or deck in less than stellar working condition. Regardless of the fancy features, the tape must survive the playback and winding process.

Good luck with it. You may need to purchase a few camcorder examples before finding one still in good working condition or able to be made so without too much trouble.

[halopower]

Hello,

Thank you for all your replies and valuable advice. There are a few I have my eye on. I.e.

1. panasonic ag-dvx100be

2. panasonic-ag-dvx100b-3ccd

3. SonyHDR FX 1000

4. Panasonic NV-MD10000 mini-DV Camcorder PAL 3CCD

5. SONY HVR-M15U_miniDV_DV_DVCAM

or

6. JVC HR-DVS1

Which one should I focus on?

Thanks for your help and best regards!

[lordsmurf]

JVC decks play DV tapes quite poorly, often eating them.

DVS1 and DVS2 decks are terrible decks to ship, very fragile. Never buy those unless a local buy.

Canon DV cameras are best. Maybe Sony. Not Panasonic.

[vwestlife]

One thing I've noticed is that Panasonic NTSC MiniDV camcorders refuse to play PAL tapes, while Sony ones have no trouble playing PAL tapes.

Canon briefly had some weird incompatible super-long-play MiniDV recording modes that ran the tape even slower than LP, but I doubt you'll ever come across anything recorded that way. I bought a model with that feature, and the original owner's recordings were all in regular SP mode.

[7jlong]

Small possible use for Panasonic, depending on the project: I did the bulk of a (50) MiniDV transfer mostly split between a Canon and a Sony camcorder - both consumer grade, worked fine. Until I hit about five tapes on Panasonic media that would either show overwhelming glitching, nasty audio, or simply not play.

As a last ditch and remembering scattered discussion over the years that some tape brands seemed happier with decks of their own kind (logical or not), I borrowed a Panasonic consumer camcorder. The tapes still had trouble, some negligible blocky digital glitching and choppy audio here and there, but I was able to recover all of them beginning to end. There was one other tape - a Maxell - that would show brief picture then give up on the Canon and Sony, but the Panasonic was able to ignore what I guess was the problem: no timecode, no idea why. Just wasn't there at all. Whether that was what the other two cameras didn't like I do not know, but the Panasonic was able to yield a very nice transfer while the others wouldn't even start.

Anecdotal and not backed up with various tests and re-tests - I simply wanted to get the project done - but there you have it.

I second: don't bother with JVC, at the MiniDV camcorder level anyway. They've got a nasty problem with cracking gears.

[halopower]

Hello everyone again and thanks for all the replies. I'll probably end up buying two or three cameras and testing different combinations.

Lordsmurf - Can you specify exactly which cameras you're thinking about (Canon, Sony), which exact models/series???

[latreche34]

Just get a Sony from the late era of DV, mid 2000 probably, Consumer camcorders tend to have very low hours of use. You can't go wrong with a fully working Sony miniDV or HDV camcorder.

[halopower]

Hello everyone very warmly after a short absence

Thank you for all the replies and very valuable information.

I am currently browsing the offer of this seller:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/str/smartwith....m3561.l170197

and I am thinking of simply buying a few cameras (one from each manufacturer). As you wrote above, Canon, Sony, Panasonic.

The question is which cameras should I buy from this seller for my adventure with capturing signal from MiniDV?

Thank you for your help and best regards!

[aramkolt]

Honestly, you should probably be able to get away with just one Sony camera. I don't have experience with the others, but if LS says Canon work well, that's good to know. While cosmetic condition doesn't always tell the full story, being in good cosmetic condition probably means it wasn't used a ton or abused. Depending on the urgency of the project (and if you're planning to only transfer one tape at a time), I'd probably just buy one camera at first and then only buy another if you are having playback issues with some tapes.

If you happen to have tapes that are some version of LP, that's where you can run into issues, or so certain YouTube videos would suggest. The specific camera that recorded it will be able to play it back fine, but some or few other cameras will be able to. The best deck of all time for LP is supposedly the DSR-2000 by Sony, though not all of those actually had the firewire output module. This is an interesting watch if you're curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2KbBpqtrpU

My understanding is that the DSR-2000 has unique and highly variable playback speed controls which can be used for noiseless slow motion, but also for extremely fine tuning of the tape movement through the transport during playback as well.

I do have access to a DSR-2000 with firewire that works great. If anyone runs into some DV tapes that can't otherwise be played, PM me.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

If you happen to have tapes that are some version of LP, that's where you can run into issues, or so certain YouTube videos would suggest. The specific camera that recorded it will be able to play it back fine, but some or few other cameras will be able to. The best deck of all time for LP is supposedly the DSR-2000 by Sony, though not all of those actually had the firewire output module. This is an interesting watch if you're curious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2KbBpqtrpU
My understanding is that the DSR-2000 has unique and highly variable playback speed controls which can be used for noiseless slow motion, but also for extremely fine tuning of the tape movement through the transport during playback as well.
I do have access to a DSR-2000 with firewire that works great. If anyone runs into some DV tapes that can't otherwise be played, PM me.

How did you gain that understanding?

For example, that Youtuber you linked. Look at his other videos. It's a mess of misinformation and bad quality on full display. This video is technobabble BS. My verdict = not trustworthy.

Quote:

but if LS says Canon work well, that's good to know. While cosmetic condition doesn't always tell the full story, being in good cosmetic condition probably means it wasn't used a ton or abused. Depending on the urgency of the project (and if you're planning to only transfer one tape at a time), I'd probably just buy one camera at first and then only buy another if you are having playback issues with some tapes.

This.

Canon really outclassed Sony in every way at the DV format. All the way from the consumer cameras, to the SLR lens cameras.

The Elura and ZR series are quite good. I've used those for shooting and playback, with great results to this day. Those cameras are insanely cheap now, often under $100. Right now, the DV camera market is like the VHS market was in 2010. Eventually, DV cameras will approach the MSRPs, which was $300 to $1k+ ranges. My Elura was $1k+ at the time, early 2000s.

Listings that are complete, all accessories (from lens cap to extra batteries), are what you want. And the better the cosmetics, generally the better the unit. These were consumer items, so the less visibly used, the better. But you do need to avoid cameras from smokers, or that were stored outdoors (attic, garage, storage unit, etc).

Note that you may not use the accessories. All you need is the camera, power plug, and potentially the AV cable (if analog transfer of DV is needed, and sometimes it is). But having it all there suggests care by an original owner, often buying from the original owner (or a yard sale "flipper"). Unlike VCRs/TBCs, DV cameras are somewhat easy to test. Then the only worry is liar sellers ("tested"/"working" but not tested or working). DV cameras don't really have pitfalls of older VCRs/TBCs right now. Completeness also helps with resale.

eBay is a gamble, so never buy VHS VCRs or TBCs there. Even capture cards are pretty bad now. But right now, DV and Hi8 cameras are often safe buys, unlike the VCRs/TBCs now (but were 10-15 years ago). But $100 max, for video gear, really is gambling money.

For example, follow this auction: https://www.ebay.com/itm/205512800322
Or https://www.ebay.com/itm/267262491181 (no remote, but not overly important)
And quite a few more I see.
EDIT: halopower is PAL, so those NTSC cameras won't work here. But comparable listings exist on eBay UK.

[aramkolt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

How did you gain that understanding?

What sold me was that I also know someone that runs a transfer company and they have also said that only their DSR-2000 would play certain miniDV tapes despite trying those same tapes in several other decks and cameras.

I'd be curious to actually try some LP tapes that people can't get to play with the DSR-2000 to see it for myself though.

[timtape]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

What sold me was that I also know someone that runs a transfer company and they have also said that only their DSR-2000 would play certain miniDV tapes despite trying those same tapes in several other decks and cameras.

I'd be curious to actually try some LP tapes that people can't get to play with the DSR-2000 to see it for myself though.

It's not just LP DV tapes. I've been given a box of 36 DV tapes recorded in SP. They have terrible audio (either completely dropped out or loud popping sounds). The picture drifts in and out of partial pixellation. I adjusted the entry guide less than 1/4 turn and presto, picture and sound are solid. I've yet to try guide adjusting on an LP tape as these tapes seem all SP recordings. I know LP is fussier so expect the guide adjusting will be needed more often with LP tapes.

The little Panny camera handily provides access to the guides by removing a plastic cover plate, so dismantling the camera is not needed. I've seen this also on at least one other brand. I'm guessing the adjustment is so precise that in the factory they had to do a final adjustment once the camera was fully assembled.

The adjuster pictured I made up myself by modifying an existing jeweller's screwdriver.

***Warning, do not try this unless you know exactly what you are doing and have a very steady hand. It's easy to do serious damage to the camera mechanism and the tape. Just noting that guide adjustment on the tiny DV format to optimise picture and sound is possible.***

[halopower]

Lordsmurf, simply a treasure trove of knowledge

See if this camera is possible?

https://www.ebay.pl/itm/177128342056...r2qV5qI3axfYGA IfIKQmLL9ISYEZaU8jpzw7JNUdNbuSSqc7tWDyPJhlmM%2BKMg Z7GwIOv8qkfzhSnPPzvQqoSwgGQ3krR85bq0avf%2FF3gZNN%2 BJi5q4Mf1zTXmGxAF w9F1jDbfBwBOamqbOi99Rn9jnn3XXBE0ls72oTQ%2B6qKehobb RzOmz%2Bg%3D%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6qWgIXjZQ&LH_ItemCond ition=1500%7C1000

possibly this one?

https://www.ebay.pl/itm/226696090305...Mv%2BgClMktgJS dQeQLc7XeseW4YkkSBi8b8b3%2FdLDxa7vPgAUYFGimy3CO42h 6B1Pvzsv583ypHCxGWwVsUwxa50Vnb4vtwi9Yj7BsKREttDa9q egs1KMXImwe2b%2BZCMVKnuauox UjC1v7JJMT6468RgML3h8rkxh3wbepi%2FJ2ptFHROcpXFyqMG ES3PtjhAYqwDA8EHWDPnQtFro%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6qWgIXjZQ&L H_ItemCondition=1500%7C1000

But what's the point if they are NTSC and I'm from Europe and need PAL

I can't find anything on Ebay, but I'm looking in the wrong place?