vwestlife capture device comparison of USB cards?
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTOChbbTRgs

Interesting watch if you haven't seen it yet. The main complaint people here will probably have is that a VCR with line TBC wasn't used for the testing which likely would have made most of the other cards perform much better.

Was a little disappointed that the VRD-MC5 wasn't included in the comparison (though I get it's a little different class being a non-direct-to-computer method). That'd be a readily available (used) MPEG2 contender, though does require using burnable DVDs and some extra steps to get it onto a computer. The separate video he did on the MC5 is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF1-1hwYdKg

I would say it's hard to beat DV or MPEG2 capture (as long as the bitrate is high enough) on a budget if you want a simple/inexpensive setup with decent results. Lossless or ProRes captures are better yet quality-wise, but if the destination is YouTube and you're on a budget, you could do a lot worse compared to modern capture options available. With these, you're less likely to run into audio sync issues or dropped frames with hardware MPEG2 or DV encoders all while still preserving interlacing.

Thoughts?

The DV color loss is very obvious on many of those clips.

I don't agree with his assessment of "USB devices", as USB is fine. The problem is that most cheap junk devices are USB. And he exclusively used the "sold new" junk devices. Quality USB do exist, namely the ATI 600 USB (and clones) and Pinnacle USB that I have here in the marketplace. If those were not quality, I would not use them myself, nor sell to others.

When forced to choose between lossy DV, and bad USB capture cards, then he's 100% correct. But there are options better than both.

Yes, you can do worse. And also much better.

Why do I feel like this is like computer brands. "Oh my specific Dell laptop sucks, I refuse to buy a Dell branded PC anymore"

Yeah, with that logic if all USB cards sucked then, well we wouldn't be using any. Also heh, looking at the comments guess the device is now $300, if not flat out sold out.

Talk about YouTuber influence, guess the product has now been "scalped"

This is probably still an interesting video, gonna give it a watch

People that whine about "scalpers" are such morons.

These are decades-old devices, and few are available now. The device had an MSRP of at least $350 from what I was reading. So when this video was made, eBay had recyclers/flippers (they know nothing, they don't care) asking pennies on the dollar, and others (who probably do know more the device) asking for closer to MSRP. Well, the cheapest ones sold first (duh!), and now the not-cheapest are left. That's not "scalping", that's just the units still available at a higher asking price. People didn't start finding decades-old devices, and posting them on eBay, for some imaginary "profit". eBay sellers don't scour Youtube like that. That's not how it works.

Whenever anybody cries about "scalpers", they're just mad they didn't get the unusually low price point, and now have to deal with the more-normal price point. But I doubt any of those whiners were prospective buyers at all. Typical social media "bitching for sport".

You see this especially in action figures. For example, anybody buying a $25 figure in store has to sell it for about $40 on eBay to break even. Taxes, fees, shipping, gas, supplies. People say dumb things like "just leave it on the peg for somebody else", not understanding that the figure just isn't selling in that location. Somebody sees a desired figure, puts it on eBay, and both buyer and seller are happy. Those whining about "scalpers" are just a just a peanut gallery. Lots of collectors would rather deal with eBay buyers than the low-balling whiners in groups on Reddit or Facebook.

vwestlife is "one of us", though he does like his DV devices. I don't always agree with him, but he doesn't often say anything out of line. ("All USB" is a bit close, however. That's not accurate.)

Well gave it a watch, was fine. I mean, I'm glad we can all agree that the Elgato (and USB devices like it) suck ass and "professionals" who use it are doing a major disservice to their customers. Especially if you're charging $30 to $50 bucks.

$1500 for around 40 tapes for Got Memories or Emerald Coast to do? I'm sorry but that is unacceptable.

Anyway fellow user NJRoadFan left a comment talking about the ATI 600 USB, saying he could do a capture himself. Told him a copy of the fireplace tape VWestLife used is up on Ebay for around $36.

I don't care to digitize it with my setup, which I suspect would handle the tape perfectly.

If vwestlife wants to borrow the ATI 600 USB for comparison testing, he can. I'd rather the tests be replicated with the same tape and VCR anyway. I'd loan out the AVT-8710, but its not functioning at the moment.

So scalping is buying an item then is reselling it for a price that is higher than what it usual is. You wanna know what is actually scalped a lot? Gaming GPUs.

So a Nvidia RTX 5050's MSRP (Manufacture Suggested Retail Price) is around $250 and you can find Ebay listings that are around that price.

Though you can find listings that are double the price at $500. When these cards get sold out, the only ones left are the listings that are 2 or 3x above the MSRP.

Like, Aramkolt selling a refurbished JVC S-VHS SR-VS30U for $600 doesn't make the VCR scalped or at a "hyper inflated price" because you can find an archived MSRP for the model at $1400.

Yep. Buying items new, in bulk, then immediately reselling unreasonably higher, is what "scalping" is. Actual scalping tends to be bot-buying online, then immediately placing the items on eBay/etc. Much of that is automated, and done by crews. It can very much mirror organized crime, and is often perpetrated by the same people. It's not single people with single items. It's not the person buying an extra, then reselling.

Anybody is perfectly free to buy "tested" and "working" VCRs for cheap, then quickly learn nothing was actually tested nor working. They can DIY fix -- but uh-oh, they have no clue what they're doing. See also why so many completely broken items, total repair botch jobs, are now on eBay as "parts/repair" items.

Refurbishing decks take knowledge, work, experience, parts, supplies, shipping/tax costs, etc. None of that is free. Your typical half-wit social media cheapskate won't understand that, but others do. The "real world" outside social media wants vetted items, they buy quality, and their projects tend to go stunningly well as a result. I've been helping people for 10 years now with such hardware.

BTW, street price on the VS30 deck was actually quite a bit higher, too. I have CDW catalogs from the 2000s, I found one recently. The write-up for the JVC DR-M10S was a real beauty.

A VCR/Camcorder is definitely an important factor here, One with line TBC and S-Video makes the case 80% of the time, USB/Firewire/SDI/PCI does not really matter as long as the capture is in lossless AVI.

DV devices have been known to be more stable than any other cheap capture device, It is not a discovery. I've used one, the Edirol VMC-1 a decade ago never had a problem even with a low end VCR, People who used the Canopus series also had more success compared to other capture devices which flooded forums with stability complaints.

Whether the DV codec is up to the archival task? I'm not the judge here, for me it's a no no. I think it's an okay format for playback of VHS and other home video formats, but not remotely close for broadcast formats such as uMatic, Betacam and the likes.

I liked that he toasted Gotmemories and the other business which I forgot their name, That was a treat.

True, I think these USB cards don't have any TBC built into it. Like I'd get wiggling and whatnot if I disabled the TBC built into my VCR or camcorder for example while my Pinnacle 510 captures a video.

So this Sony device has a Line TBC built into it at most it seems, I guess it's the same deal as a Panasonic ES15 DVD Recorder. Is it the best? No. Is it the least worst option? Yes. Is it one of the better options if you're on a very tight budget? Probably yes as well.

Could be better, but you could be doing much worse. Sadly these "professionals" are doing much worse.

At 22:50 I am surprised that his Pinnacle 710 had a lot of tearing like that compared to other cards.

Again, versions exist.

Also, in many of these segments, he's blaming the capture cards for the faults of the VCR and source tape. That's not the job of a capture card.

That DV box may have a (Panasonic?) line TBC, but overall it is reducing quality from forced DV compression. Capture cards should not reduce quality, but rather ingest as transparently as possible. This transfer is mediocre quality, not archival.

His Pinnacle sample also looks oversaturated to me. Maybe it is the wrong version.

It's probably heavy chroma artifacts, a mix of wrong card + source tape + low-end VCR.

Also remembering the DV capture is washed out, DV color loss.

Good point. It’s not like that Sanyo will display everything completely legal and they made consumer VCRs to be oversaturated so it’s hard to tell if it’s the card with other variables involved.

Also I think the fireplace tape was recorded in LP mode, so that probably does complicate things

It’s easy to get an idea of what kind of quality those companies give on your own tapes because a lot of libraries let you use those in there digitizing center for free with there elgato and low end VCR. My local library has a digitizing center. Got memories has a ten tape minimum but if someone wanted to see how bad it is that’s a good way to get an idea on your own tapes.

Hah, can see the same Espon Scanner I use to have, have since replaced it with a v850. I mean, since they are offering it for free then I'd say there is no harm.

You could just grab some retail tape you don't care about if it gets destroyed.

It's just when you're offering this as a professional service, well people should be expecting you to have high quality standards. Sadly a good chunk of these companies don't care about quality, they just care about quanity and ease of use.

Not all of them operate that way of course, thankfully the local transfer service I know of is way way better than these slop shops as they do use S-VHS VCRs and TBCs, they have also been around since the 80s and have had an online site since the mid 90s.

So I suppose age of the business can play a factor.

V600 is a great scanner.
But the Elgato capture card is a total POS.
Somebody did photo scanner research, but no video capture research.

Remember, Walmart is a business that sells tons of low-quality junk. So some companies are only exist to use us consumers as a profit engine, and care nothing about us. (The irony here is that Sam Walton probably would not recognize Walmart now, as it's almost the antithesis of what he stood for.) So hucksters like LegacyBox, and those Youtubers in strip malls, are not there to give us the best quality possible.

That gear is expected with a free service but also their VCR has a high probability of being contaminated with mold because the users have nothing invested and are new. Any tape you get out of there you can't put in another VCR without risking it being contaminated by mold.

Chill, guys. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. Also don't underestimate the value people may place in an easy solution that you can just plug in and have it work perfectly every time, with no special software, tweaks, or extra equipment required. That's why the Elgato and EasyCap sell like hotcakes, because that's what they promise, but don't deliver. The DVMC does.

And believe me, I was really rooting to find a USB capture device that I could recommend. Something that wouldn't drop frames if you look at it wrong, won't cause Blue Screens of Death, and won't have random glitches, freezes, and crashes that were enough to make this atheist pray that I could get it working long enough to at least get a few seconds of usable footage. Especially when Windows decides to start sucking up all your CPU power to check for updates or malware in the middle of your capture session. Give me an ancient, completely offline Mac any day of the week compared to that!

Until DVMC prices come back to Earth, the aforementioned Sony DVDirect burners may indeed be the best budget buy, especially if you hate computers as much as I do, and if you think MPEG2 may be the lesser of two evils compared to the DV nasties that all the professionals in the broadcast industry somehow failed to see 30 years ago.

Speaking of which, my personally preferred capture solution isn't even the DVMC, it's the Sony DCR-SR100 camcorder which records A/V inputs directly to MPEG2 files on its hard drive. But I didn't want to publicly recommend that due to its even more limited supply of units on eBay and already-higher prices that would skyrocket even more.

For example, I used the DCR-SR100 for all the capture samples in this video, as well to record to NightShot scene showing the IR sensors: No record! 2007 Magnavox DVD / VHS player (DV200MW8)

You have a point as far as convenience and price. It’s not like you’re saying it’s better than losslessly compressed. Good video.

Quoted to agree. Video was fine (but title not so much).

My issue was it was clickbait without accuracy
- "USB video capture devices ALL SUCK" is just plain wrnog.
- "but there's a $20 solution" is also untrue in terms of MSRP or typical resale value. Sure, you'll always find something way underpriced, but it's an exception, not a rule

I get that. But several items deliver at the low-end, including certain USB cards, passthrough Panasonic DVD recorders, etc.

I doubt it. "The cat's out of the bag" now, and those underpriced items that flew "under the radar" are now outed. That's just how it works.

There's a reason I don't just tell everybody everything I know, because certain items would skyrocket beyond reality. Every reseller/recycler on eBay would think their crap is treasure -- which is a huge problem when their crap/"treasure" needs refurb work. That's why "parts or repair" decks are $500 at times, which drives up costs of the refurb'd decks to $1k+ for parts/time. (Similarly, vhs-decode kiddies blame me for TBC costs, as if I control what others charge and pay.)

Yep, that would happen. :2cents:

To me, the 1990s often felt like "wow, amazing!", in reference to tech. The result was people in the 90s were too easy to please. (That's been displaced by 2020s social media complaining. Nothing is ever good enough, never cheap enough.)

- The 2000s gave rise to some really great video hardware.
- The 2010s was all about Chinese KOs. So all the crappy Chinese USB cards.
- The 2020s have turned into "choose your own facts", so people are largely unsure what to think, skeptical of everything, and putting conspiracy bums at an even consideration to experts in a field.

But you already know this, you're old enough. :laugh:

The video is fine but I would say a good working VCR or camcorder built in TBC will filter out the good capture devices from bad capture devices. The point is if a capture device is fed with a stable signal and still craps out, it really sucks.

OK, then all of the ones I tested suck... which was a lot of them. I really thought the Lumanate/Dell box would be a diamond in the rough, since Windows automatically loaded the drivers, it worked fine with TotalMedia, VirtualDub, and AMCap, and it transferred the crappy LP fireplace tape without issue -- but then for some reason stumbled badly on an SP tape. Bummer!

And to make you happy, I removed the $20 from the title.

You can still get other analog-to-DV boxes at reasonable prices. For example, the Canopus ADVC-100 is going for around $80 - $100.

Note that the Sony DCR-SR60 and SR80 camcorders also support capturing analog video to MPEG2 files, but require Sony's stupid Handycam Station docking base to get a USB port, which they are usually sold without.

A lot of JVC camcorder models from 2007 to 2008 also support A/V input recording, but they only do composite (no S-video), and use a weird .MOD container for the video files. JVC even had a few camcorder models which recorded video to MPEG2 files on a hard drive, but then could spit it out as DV over FireWire, just to make it easier to use with then-established tape camcorder workflows.

Panasonic also had a tiny camcorder that fit in the palm of your hand and captured DVD-quality video from a composite input directly to SD cards... in 2003! Too bad Panasonic had to invent their own proprietary high-speed SD cards to do it, since regular ones weren't fast enough yet.
Panasonic D-Snap - The $1000 SD Card camcorder from 2003!

There are some oddities in the USB tests. Next week (or week after), I'll finally have some time go over it, and give you some feedback.

The TBC information is also not accurate. For example, it conflates line TBC and frame TBC. That's like lumping a dump truck with a Honda Accord in a "what car to buy" conversation, then complaining about how the dump truck is too expensive and gets terrible gas mileage.

PVR-style devices, especially XP MCE native, are pretty universally horrible at videotapes. Hauppauge had a lot of stinker cards at the time. Probably the most hopeful device at the time was the LSI-based SoundBlaster video card, but drivers/software screwed that one up.

I forget about those. Avoid, avoid, avoid! :mad4:

/ conclusion:

The way I figure it, at least you're spreading the word that Easycaps, Elgatos, VC500s are crap, and shaming those sham "professionals" that use those cards.

I'll have a lot more time next year. Perhaps we can do a video together. :hmm:

Looked it up, seems like the Sony DVMC-DA2 went for $300 to $350 back when it was new in the early 2000s.

Guess on the topic of these capture cards needing good stable signals, swear I remember seeing in some BlackMagic device's manual that it states a time base corrected signal must be used.

Any TBC is better than no TBC. I know you guys love to go "Bad! Bad! Do not buy! It'll ruin your video and give you indigestion!" about certain TBCs, but compared to video that's wobbling like a flag in the wind, the one in the DVMC is certainly better than nothing.

And if you use the DV passthrough mode of a Handycam, as I mentioned in the video, in most models that gives you an option to disable the TBC, in case you come across a circumstance where it hurts more than it helps.

Everyone agrees with that.

That would be an interesting video.

I decided to get the Dell Angel out and mess around with it since I think it really deserves another look. I didn't personally get any tearing artifacts when using it with SP or slower speeds and all captures posted below are with internal TBC off.

Just to give an idea of how good of quality it is if the source is high quality, I've attached samples of both the unit being hooked up both with composite and S-Video to both the pattern generator (TPG21) and playback of a VHS tape that was made via S-Video from the pattern generator in SP and then played back via both S-Video and composite.

I honestly can't really tell the difference between the S-Video vs Composite captured on tape in this case outside of the very slight rainbowing in the center of the moving zone plate and maybe there's a bit of green hue to the S-Video capture. When captured from a high quality source (the pattern generator), the difference is also minimal other than the expected luma/chroma crosstalk around the zone plate.

The program I was using defaults to 7500Kb/s and does not appear to be changeable in that software anyway.

This test is kind of interesting in that it shows just how much gets lost in VHS recordings compared to the source (pattern generator vs SP recording of the generator).

Just for fun, here's a dropbox link to what a lossless 10 bit capture compressed to FFV1 looks like from a TPG21 (75,000Kb/s for the lossless 10 bit FFV1 compared to the Angel's MPEG2 at 7,500Kb/s - so in other words the Angel's file takes up 1/10th the space and no conversions needed at the cost of some loss of vibrancy and sharpness - it is 4:2:0 after all compared to 4:2:2)
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0yk13...p8sjcd1a3&dl=0

Appears that dropbox link with the comparison of lossless 10 bit FFV1 compared to the Dell Angel doesn't work for some reason, so here's a new link: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/xgj7eont96ln1rr3fodc9/10bitlossless_Vs_AngelMPEG2.png?rlkey=iftjqxa7w55l 2j6attrtgos1y&dl=0

The FFV1 is also a full window 720x486 capture via SDI compared to the Angel's 720x480.

The DVMC's TBC chip is the Sony CXD3129R, so far confirmed to also be used in:
DCR-TRV900 (MiniDV)
DSR-11 (DVCAM)
DSR-25 (DVCAM)
DSR-50 (DVCAM)
DSR-PD100 (DVCAM)

A similar TBC chip, the Sony CXD3129GA, so far confirmed to be used in:
DCR-PC3 (MiniDV)
DCR-PC100 (MiniDV)
DCR-TR7000 (Digital8)
DCR-TRV8 (MiniDV)
DCR-TRV10 (MiniDV)
DCR-TRV103 (Digital8)
DCR-TRV110 (Digital8)
DCR-TRV203 (Digital8)
DCR-TRV210 (Digital8)
DCR-TRV310 (Digital8)
DCR-TRV315 (Digital8)

A different TBC chip, the NEC µPD82014UB, so far confirmed to be used in:
DCR-PC7 (MiniDV)
DCR-PC10 (MiniDV)
DCR-TRV7 (MiniDV)
DCR-TRV9 (MiniDV)
GV-D300 (MiniDV)
GV-D900 (MiniDV)

The aforementioned JVC camcorders which can record A/V input to MPEG2 video do not have a TBC, so no hidden gem there.

You have to be really careful with same, similar, and different chips.

- Functions can be disabled on chips, per device.
- Even a slight variation chip can be vastly different, missing functions.
- Different chips can perform vastly different.

It needs to be confirmed, one by one. Anybody buying from this list is essentially a guinea pig until confirmation. Members, readers, would-be buyers, all need to recognize this.

But still good info to add here. :congrats:

As an example, I've gotten tired/irritated by Analog Device chip conversations over the years. Most of those devices have functions disabled, as the function is wonky and unreliable. Then even slight variations in chip model letter/number are wildly different in architecture. The posters are far too giddy, misplaced excitement, from seeing either device internal images, or reading simple device spec sheets. It's just not that easy.

At one point I think I had one of those compact DSR models that was a parts unit due to a mechanical issue. If I can find it, I should be able to test it against an ADVC-110, DVMC, TRV-310, and a ADVC-300. I think the TRV-310 is pretty well known to have line-TBC properties though.

I probably have 3 or 4 other pro and compact full size DV/DVCAM/DVCPRO decks from Sony, JVC, and Panasonic that I should be able to throw into the mix that I presume are able to do analog to DV out.

As far as tests I'd try, would probably feed them color bars from a pattern generator to look at color accuracy and luma levels and then try to capture a short portion of a tape that has known top frame tearing and see what they all do with it.

Sony's TBC is not infallible. MV Gard causes it to blank out:

Proto-Macrovision: Magnetic Video's MV Gard (1979)

I have seen threads about that. The claiming the Analog Device chip on the Pinnacles and other devices have TBC like qualities. I haven’t seen any evidence of it though.

From my understanding they do not. Not by themselves, I could turn off the line TBC in my VCR and it'll produce a wiggling mess.

Not just Pinnacle cards, but Blackmagic, and others (Aja, Edirol, Canopus?), dev boards, etc etc.
Blah blah blah, no.

Analog Devices has a very loose definition of "TBC". Their "ADLLT" is mostly marketing BS. While I get tired of marketing, I get more tired of people that believe it without any scrutiny. (We truly live in a world of lemmings and gullible goobers -- which also explains modern politics. Too many sheeple out there, not enough critical thinking and science.)

Heck, even AI (Claude) knows better!

AI has actually gotten good at some of these concepts, but easily hallucinate if you don't already know a lot about TBCs. You must have documents to preamble the conversion, pose accurate jargon-filled questions, and include backstops to avoid hallucinations.

If you really dig into the AD documents, on the ADLLT, you find a lot of gotchas, hidden weasel terms. I have a very technical break down, but just never had to post it. And rather than having somebody swipe my info for Youtube, I thought about making a Youtube video myself concurrently with written documents. But time is my issue. There's another concurrent with that, not discussing it now.