New highly accurate prediction method reported by jorel!
 

First of all, thanks to jorel for finding this out and doing many many encodes to confirm this.

When using ToK, or even manual KVCD prediction ( ;) ), instead of using 24 frames for the length of the sample (Or Auto mode), use 3* frame rate.
So if you are using ToK, go to "Prediction & Spacing" and uncheck Auto, and if you are encoding at 23.976 fps, change the length of samples to 72. If you are encoding PAL (25fps), change it to 75. If encoding NTSC 29.97fps, change it to 90.
Now see how accurate your results are 8)

Thanks jorel ;)

-kwag

Re: New highly accurate prediction method reported by jorel!
 

Hi kwag, hi Jorel,

that is exactly what i already tried (see here: http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....4614&start=129)
Well, for me (PAL) a Sampler Length of 24 is optimal at the moment. Sometimes a SL of 72 or 75 Prediction is very accurate, sometimes way off target (mostly with 75) :roll: . Until now i made 6 test encodes with a SL of 24 and it ended always up with 0.5% accuracy.
I will try again with a SL of 72 tonight :D .

For PAL (25fps) try 75, which is exactly 3*frame rate.

-kwag

I tried this on a couple of encodes and still got 2-3% error. Can you post a screenshot of the ToK settings to use? Ta.

Kwag and Jorel, please help me. :(

Look this TOK log from "Heaven":

================================================== ===========
ToK Log: E:\HEAVEN\VIDEO_TS\NewScript25.avs
================================================== ===========

Resolution (fps):704x480 (23,976 fps)
Total Frames: 139897
Total Time : 01:37:15
-------------------------------------------------------------

Audio Size: 93.359.125
Required Video Size: 733.099.284

Factor: 59,940
Desired Sample Size: 12.230.551

-------------------------------------------------------------
New Faster Prediction
-------------------------------------------------------------

Full Sample
Next CQ: 70,000. Sample Size: 16.014.598
Small Sample
Next CQ: 70,000. Sample Size: 1.581.155
Predicting...
Next CQ: 53,460. Sample Size: 12.035.700
Next CQ: 58,000. Sample Size: 13.587.551
Next CQ: 54,880. Sample Size: 12.048.249
Next CQ: 55,845. Sample Size: 12.056.600
Next CQ: 56,506. Sample Size: 12.717.480
Next CQ: 56,097. Sample Size: 12.274.154

Exit Condition: 0,500 % reached ! yahoo !
Tries : 7


Final CQ: 56,097
Total Time For Predicition: 00:17:48


-------------------------------------------------------------
Encoding E:\HEAVEN\VIDEO_TS\NewScript25.avs
-------------------------------------------------------------

Encoding... CQ : 56,097
Final Encoded Size: 684.997.229
Muxing ...


Total Time (all operations): 04:47:37

Finished

I don't understand
Required Video Size: 733.099.284
Final Encoded Size: 684.997.229 :!: :evil:

My settings:
TOK 0.0.5.2 with Kwags video.en1 modified. Also, I changed the VBV Buffer Size to 60960 instead 0f 40960 (illegal floating zero trick).

Prediction&Spacing:
New Faster Prediction : checked
Factor for Prediction : 1,01
Length of Sample : 24 (Auto checked !)
Number of Samples / minute : 2
1st Group Precision % : 0,50
Speed Up by: 10
MPEG1 - VCD

Any idea?

LaBomba

labomba my friend:
:)

change the
Length of Sample : 24 (Auto checked !) to :arrow: 72 :!: (uncheck Auto !)

Number of Samples / minute : :arrow: 1
Factor for Prediction : :arrow: 1,00

see the first Kwag post!
:wink:

for vbv buffer size i'm in doubt ... :?
seems too much!
wait for the Kwag recomendations!

:wink:

Please try the settings that we mention in this thread. You have a Factor of 1.01 instead of 1.0.
You have to uncheck Auto, and set your Length of sample to 3*FrameRate.
Set number of samples per minute to 1.

Now try it again :!:

-kwag

Would that make up on that 20-30mb or 0.30CQ difference :?: :mrgreen:

I made a new try but BEFORE to read these last posts, so:

Factor REMAINS 1,01 and Samples/minute = 2

================================================== ===========
ToK Log: E:\HEAVEN\VIDEO_TS\NewScript25.avs
================================================== ===========

Resolution (fps):704x480 (23,976 fps)
Total Frames: 139897
Total Time : 01:37:15
-------------------------------------------------------------

Audio Size: 93.359.125
Required Video Size: 733.099.284

Factor: 19,980
Desired Sample Size: 36.691.657

-------------------------------------------------------------
New Faster Prediction
-------------------------------------------------------------

Full Sample
Next CQ: 70,000. Sample Size: 48.104.229
Small Sample
Next CQ: 70,000. Sample Size: 4.761.502
Predicting...
Next CQ: 53,393. Sample Size: 36.235.344
Next CQ: 57,864. Sample Size: 40.780.512
Next CQ: 54,735. Sample Size: 36.268.157
Next CQ: 55,664. Sample Size: 36.291.980
Next CQ: 56,312. Sample Size: 37.658.931
Next CQ: 55,921. Sample Size: 36.320.490
Next CQ: 56,073. Sample Size: 36.840.266

Exit Condition: 0,500 % reached ! yahoo !
Tries : 8


Final CQ: 56,073
Total Time For Predicition: 00:49:44

Total Time (all operations): 00:49:44

Finished

Look: FINAL CQ: 56,073 , lower than the first try (56,097) :?: :?: :x

Do you think that changing the Factor to 1.0 and the samples/minute to 2, will increase the Final CQ?

LaBomba

Hi LaBomba,

I don't know what's going on with your source :!:
You're not encoding an AVI are you :roll:

-kwag

No Kwag.

I only use DVD material.
I used ForceFilm in DVD2AVI (Film 98% Progressive).
Used the optimal script from July 2th to AVS 2.52
My TMPGEnc is 2.513

Please Help

LaBomba

[/IMG]

What movie are you encoding :?:

Edit: I see it's Heaven. What type of movie is that :?:

-kwag

Set number of samples per minute to 1 labomba.
search the prediction CQ again.

in my system do a big difference!
:wink:

Maybe you should start thinking about loweing you resolution from 704 to 528 :!: :wink:

Oh guys, sorry for the delay!
Here the last try, with all the changes (Samples/min = 1, Factor=1)
Bingo :D :D :!:
Audio Size: 93.359.125
Required Video Size: 725.840.875

Factor: 19,980
Desired Sample Size: 36.328.373

-------------------------------------------------------------
New Faster Prediction
-------------------------------------------------------------

Full Sample
Next CQ: 70,000. Sample Size: 46.664.520
Small Sample
Next CQ: 70,000. Sample Size: 4.673.724
Predicting...
Next CQ: 54,495. Sample Size: 35.417.417
Next CQ: 58,999. Sample Size: 39.851.997
Next CQ: 56,084. Sample Size: 35.983.535
Next CQ: 56,943. Sample Size: 38.331.786
Next CQ: 56,361. Sample Size: 36.823.666
Next CQ: 56,210. Sample Size: 36.369.733

Exit Condition: 0,500 % reached ! yahoo !
Tries : 7


Final CQ: 56,210
Total Time For Predicition: 23:31:36

Total Time (all operations): 23:31:36

Finished

The CQ increased from 56,073 to 56,210 :!:

A little bit low CQ yet, but I'm trying a 97min. movie, some dark but also with low action, with 704x480 resolution, 1 CD80min, 128k audio!!! :twisted:
Madness ??! Really NO !! I can testify, with the second last script of July 2th, and the old CQ (56,073), I had very little gibbs.

Now, let me try the newest script and the newest prediction method.

Thanks a lot, guys.

LaBomba

Well im not sure this method more accurate than the other but correct me if im run chainge the sampler rate fron 24 to 72 for NTSC film here is my tok lod:

when over the desire video size by ~8 megs 728mb video, 79mb audio from HeadAC3he. Good ting i was able to Overburn, any sugestion :?: maybe usin 64 samples instead of 72 :?:

Well im not sure this method more accurate than the other but correct me if im run chainge the sampler rate fron 24 to 72 for NTSC film here is my tok log:

when over the desire video size by ~8 megs 728mb video, 79mb audio from HeadAC3he. Good thing i was able to Overburn :!: , any sugestion :?: maybe usin 64 samples instead of 72 :?

Question: does this method work for fast prediction or full prediction only? Also, is it accurate at other factors for prediction? I ask because I like to make my muxed videos to be ~815mb since I can overburn on my discs. Lets me squeeze a bit more CQ in my videos, you know? So for that I usually set my factor a bit higher, to 1.01 or 1.02.

Also, is it recommended to change # of samples/min to 2 if the total movie length is less than 100min? I have heard that prediction accuracy is best when you can make at least 100 samples per movie, so if my film is only 90 minutes long I predict with 2 samples/min.

Yes it is :!: That's right ;)

-kwag

Kwag / Jorel, thanks for making things even better for us.

Could you confirm if these settings OK then for PAL?

New faster Prediciton: Unchecked
Check Pass: Unchecked
Precision: 0.5%
Speed up by: 10 times
Factor for Prediction: 1.00
Length of Sample: 75
Number of Samples: 1 For > 100mins
2nd Group of Passes: Unchecked

GOP parameters: 1, 5823, 2, 1, 24

Much appreciated.
ozjeff99

ozjeff99
only change

:arrow: GOP parameters: 1, 5823, 2, 1, 25

from the first Kwag's post:
"...if you are encoding at 23.976 fps, change the length of samples to 72.

:arrow: If you are encoding PAL (25fps), change it to 75.

If encoding NTSC 29.97fps, change it to 90."


the others adjusts are fine!
:wink:

Thanks for that very quick reply Jorel 8O :P

In the earlier posts on the other streams I noticed PAL people were getting inaccuracies with MaX N. of frames in GOP=25 and were advocating 24. Any insights on this?

Cheers
ozjeff99

ozjeff99,

i only encode ntsc sources dvds and don't have pal for tests.
Kwag did tons of tests, much,much more than me
and he used pal sources to get preditions too!

i can't talk about pal predictions and
the references from Kwag are better than mine.

:)

ps:
in Brasil is pal-m,seems ntsc-m(usa) in "standard-m", different from pal-g.
we encode ntsc dvds!
:wink:

Hi Jorel

I wanted to make sure I got this right cos this prediction seems too fast. Do I do a full prediction ie. Speed up by 1? Or do you use fast prediction?

Would help if you could post a screenshot.

Thanks mate
ozjeff99

ozjeff99,

yes is really too fast, and i don't use fast prediction!
use like posted! :wink:

believe me,i don't know how put a picture here,seems that i need some space in the web...
i have this space(50mb) but i don't know how...
conclusion:
:imstupid:

and more..Marco.c from portuguese forum give space in the web too!

than i'm stup twice. :oops:

i need a big tutorial from a patient friend to make my page only to put files

Kwag and Jorel, I really don't know what I'm doing wrong here.

Remember my last post : I achieved a CQ=56,210 with the July 2th script.
Well, with the latest (July 4th?), factor=1.0, sample/min=1, sample rate=72, I got now CQ=56,187 :? :( :!:
And worse, the Required Video Size: 725.840.875 and I got a final file with 677.710 k 8O :cry:
I really don't understand. Do you think that sample/min=1 instead of 2 was my mistake (97 min movie)?

Another weird infos: The DVD2AVI (1,76) runned quickly during this project. Another thing: when I selected the d2v file on SwiftAvs, it said me to use deinterlace, even being a 23.97 FroceFilm project. I didn't deinterlace it. Could it be the problem?

LaBomba

Hi labomba,

If you are using AviSynth 2.52, you should be using DVD2AVI version 1.77.3 :!: Not 1.76.
Also, if your file is >=95% FILM, you should have set "Force FILM" in DVD2AVI. Did you :?:

-kwag

Yes it looks like he use force film, however i think what is happening
is what has been happening ever sence avi2.5, the non action film go over the mark and the action films fall short of the mark, thats just my opinion. There is no such thing as an accurate prediction now but as long as i come up close enough im happy. :D

Yes, Kwag, I used ForceFilm option, but my DVD2AVI version is 1,76.

I will try the 1.77 version, after I find it. Do you know if this version is at the download thread?

LaBomba

Edited. Don't worry. I already have that version. Let me install and try again.

Hi Jorel

Unfortunately the method did not work for me :cry: . Gave me CQ 57 with 900Mb total .mpg file size. I think the Speed up by 10 is too high. When I reduced to Speed up by 5 the predicted CQ dropped to 50.52 which is very close to Full sampler (with GOP 24, samples length 72) :) . Will try full encode with this CQ. So I'll know in about 8hrs.
Thanks
ozjeff99

what is the resolution choosed and the total time of the movie :?:
just curious about the prediction that you got.
:?:

Move was Star Wars II (130min). Resolution is at 480x576 (the only kvcdx3 version my player can handle). I'm going to use the new script just posted and keep trying till I get it right.
ozjeff99

ok ozjeff99,
don't know....i never did like you and it's just my opinion...
i think that 130 minutes in 1 cdr using resolution 480x576
and with only CQ 50,xx .....the result is not too good.
why don't 2 cds with incredible CQ and quality with 480x576?

did you see the quality in your first encode with CQ57 - 900mb :?:
if is not good,means that with less space and less CQ
the quality will worse :arrow: CQ50,xx in 1cdr 80 :!:

why did you never like him what did he ever do to you :lol: j/k

Hey guys!
Great news: I finally found the problem with my prediction error, well, i guess so :lol: :!:
My DVD2AVI was 1.7.6 version, my MPEG2DEC3 was NIC's 1.00 version, OK with that D2A version, but not good to the new prediction tricks.

I changed the DVD2AVI to version 1.7.7.4 and also to version 1.7.7.3, and when using the newest script (July 6th), a error occurred. Looking the TOK 0.0.5.2 logs, all info about resolution, frames and time was wrong.

So, I found the Boulder's thread about a new NIC's version of MPEG2DEC3, the 1.08 version.

All problem of prediction solved!
Also, I don't have any issue with gripcrop and other issues that others guys are having now. So, I suggest, IMHO:
DVD2AVI = version 1.7.7.3
MPEG2DEC3 = Nic's version 1.08
AVS = version 2.5.2

Another thing: the CQ raised from 56,186 to 57,109 :!:

The last one, and probably the most important: I only burned the first try of that movie ( "Heaven",97min,704x480,128kaudio,1CD80min ), made prior to the new prediction tricks, old optimal script (July 2th) and a CQ=56,186.

The quality was ... AMAZING!!!! You can't imagine how perplexed I was. Only 56 CQ value :!: 8O :)

IMHO, we are living the most important moment of this site!

I really need a new emoticon here : of APPLAUSES :!: :D :D

Thanks, guys!

LaBomba

@ALL,

http://nic.dnsalias.com/MPEG2Dec3v108.zip

-bp

@ BP..

Thanks !!

Enjoy..
-vhelp

hi labomba..

If you are refering to kDVD ??

Yes, I've ben testing CQ w/ just 50, and am amazed (at least when I do'em)

They do look great though, don't they ?? :)
-vhelp

Hi vHelp

I'm talking about KVCD (MPEG1 300-2500 bitrate!!!)

I don't know how to post a sample of that, but it's really amazing. It's very impressive get 97min movie @704x480 on just 1CD of 80min. And wasting lot of bytes because my image file has 788mb ! So, it could be up to 825mb !! 8) I know, I could try to increase the CQ value, but when I use the new script (July 6th) my CQ raised to 57.106, but 8O 8O my mpg file (prior VCDeasy step) raised only 13mb, so I presume that I have some space on my final image file yet 8)

LaBomba

someone got good news results or
bad news results with this prediction way :?:

please,...all hints, errors, goods...all results are welcome.
the target is find the best way!

thanks.

:wink: