of course Boulder, you know what you're saying but i know what i'm doing and the results that i got!
:arrow: 12 Kdvds with 2 movies each with 2 x ac3-5.1channels(english and portuguese) and 2 subs(english and portuguese) in each movie....it's not my imagination..it's my results(without menus)!
i only want a toll to do menus..seems that dvdlab can do it!
everything i did like i posted, nothing different!
i repeat: :arrow: perfect file size :!: :!: :!:

JOREL :banghead:

With a 2pass it's NORMAL to obtain a perfect size.

THAT IS NOT due to Roba :!: Will you understand that, yes or not ?
It's really, really, really boring to consinuously seeing that you are so sure that we do not believe you that you understand only what you want in our posts :-(

Boulder or I, we NEVER said that you don't have a correct file size because WE KNOW that you have a correct filesize.

ok Phil
i can't post the same that i wrote again!
IF you do like i posted,you will see that Roba will work EXACT like i wrote.
NO,it's not incompatible, D2SRoba does exactly :
the FIRST little encodes(Roba do 3 or 4 little samples) to find the Q THEN (after find the Q for the target),then the .vaf,later the full encode.......ok, or you do like i wrote or you NEVER will see that i wrote what i got...no way! :roll:

And you repeat that again like if I didn't believed you the first time. It's amazing... :-(

Do you read me until the end ? Including my "edit" I add after boulder post ?

Isn't that what I typed there :
:?: :?: :?: Doesn't this mean that I will do test of my own ?

wrong! you don't understand about Roba!
:arrow: with 2 passes you DON'T (NEVER) get perfect size!
MAYBE 1 movie for one dvd media but NOT for 3 movies with 2 subs and 2 audios ac3! NEVER!!!!
Phil,i saty in my home doind tests all day long and i did all kind of tests with d2s for 2 YEARS...search my posts about d2s in kvcd forum and in doom9 forum. i ALWAYS use this tool!!i know all the results using CCE(3 versions)tmpgenc,sweethead problems if you choose frame selection,filters,matrices and what and where it all can give wrong file sizes. doing like i do with Roba,i HAVE perfect sizes....but using 2 or 3 passes without Roba,WRONG sizes ALWAYS!!!

Phil,
PLEASE:
encode 2 movies with 2(3 or 4) passes without Roba,
then encode the same 2 movies using Roba like i wrote:
.....post the results! you will believe in YOUR results!!!! :wink:

but all movies with 2 audios ac3 and 2 subs,ok?!?!?

It seems that you do not know what is a 2 pass encoding then !
You can't have a wrong size in two pass except when there is a bug into the encoder (like with mencoder for instance, even in 2pass you have sometimes a size that is completly wrong).

(and as you are talking about 2 years using D2S I can tell "no other encoder gave me wrong size in 2pass before mencoder in THIRTEEN years of test on MPEG2 ;-))

But after that I read :
... So I reach the conclusion that D2S has a bug somewhere (in the computation of the average bitrate to reach probably).

However, when I said "with 2pass" I wasn't talking about "when you use 2pass in D2S" so we were not talking exactly about the same things.

What is strange is that I used D2S with CCE, in vbr 3 passes to do SVCD before I discovered KVCD and I ALWAYS had a correct size at the end. Always like "I never had a problem in dozens of CDs". And I can't see what was different in your tests and lead you to failures :?
(and again I do not tell I don't believe you !)

As just said above : no need, I had dozens of SVCD done with that with no problem (the majority were in 2 discs)

Okay but that mean that your problems of wrong size are recent ? Because I don't think taht 2 years ago you did movies with 2 subs and 2 ac3 audio :-)

I asked that to know if my previous experience with SVCD is enought or do you mean that the size problem appears when you do a KDVD with 2 movies ?

Jorel, you are reading me carrefully ? Really carefully ?

Okay : if in the future you post again ONE MESSAGE suggesting I do not not believe you I WILL NEVER ANSWER AGAIN TO ANY OF YOUR MESSAGES.

Is that clear between us ? I really mean it so do not take that as a joke !

Regarding the one pass in Q mode, the second in VBR:

I think it's quite safe to do the resizing pass if the filesize difference is not big (I'd estimate 1-5% might be safe). As the vaf file contains information about the complexity, CCE should be able to hit the desired bitrate with the second pass without ruining the quality.

And jorel, using RoBa and then doing a VBR pass IS ALMOST THE SAME AS A REGULAR 2-PASS. The biggest difference quality-wise is that if the first, Q mode pass, is accurate, the encoder will distribute the bits better in the second pass (=the VBR pass).

MOST PEOPLE DO NOT DO THE SECOND PASS (ALSO KNOWN AS THE RESIZING PASS). I always do another Q mode encode and adjust the prediction accordingly if the filesize differs too much to my taste after the Q mode encode.

Think of RoBa as the CQ mode of TMPGEnc put in CCE. That's what it really is! The only difference is that you're able to do the resizing pass if necessary.

I'm not sure but I think that Jorel jusst let D2sRoba doing its job like it wants and do not ask himself to have this second pass. That is surely the guaranty of this perfect size that he noticed with the Roba methode.

the differences are:
for good quality in svcds,we need 4 or 5 passes(quality for my taste) and take very long time and imperfect final file size.
for KDVDs,the prediction works different and using 4 or 5 passes,take to long time too and give wrong file size.
with Roba,when i choose "multipass vbr,i got perfect size and FASTER with the same quality or 4 passes, this is what i'm trying to show!

for 3 movies in one media, see my last log :

--------------------------------------------------------
D2SROBA v3.50, by Tylo
--------------------------------------------------------
- WIN_98 - AutoIt 3.0.101.0
- 2004-07-04 22:04:46
--------------------------------------------------------
- Output type : DVD
- CD size : 1400
- Number of CD's : 1 (max 32)
- Sample percent : 1.0
- Adjust % : 1.2
- Cond. sizing pass : Yes (Transcode if opv sz > 0.3% oversize, and Q <= 28 )
(Encode if opv sz < 2.5% undersize, or Q > 28 )
- Clean previous : Yes
- Run mode : Crash recovery
--------------------------------------------------------
- Waiting for CCE window ...
- Detected a CCE encode window
- Detected the movie encode window - shutting down
--------------------------------------------------------
- 2004-07-04 22:07:03
- Project dir: D:\D2S-D\
- Config file: D:\D2S-D\DVD.INI
- Avisynth ini: D:\D2S-D\AVISYNTH.INI
- Avisynth setup: [Undot - LanczosResize - Deen 1], cond. filter: None
- D2S ver. 1.2.2.1, CCE ver. 2.50.1.0
--------------------------------------------------------
- Movie length : 01:20:36 (115968 frames, 23.976 fps)
- D2S audio select : 384 + 0 kbps
- D2S video calc. : 1975 kbps, 1 CDs
- Select Ranges : every 1200, select 12 frames
- Sample frames : 1164
--------------------------------------------------------
Calculations:
- 1 CD: video_br=1975 (1975) audio_br=384+0 video_sz=1194094094 fill=100% cbr=0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~
- Using num CDs : 1
- Target mpv BR : 1975 (max 8000) kbps, size=1194094094 bytes
--------------------------------------------------------
Search for Q:
- Sample encode : Q=40: 2013 kbps, err=1.9%, size=1217288997, sample sz=12218236
- Sample encode : Q=41: 1982 kbps, err=0.4%, size=1198356324, sample sz=12028204
- Determined Q : 40 = Round(41 + (0.4 - 1.2)/1.6)
--------------------------------------------------------
- 2004-07-04 22:11:28
- Start movie OPV encoding (Q 40)
- OPV pass result: 0% on target (7 / 1194094094) Speed factor: 0.92
--------------------------------------------------------
- 2004-07-05 01:23:56
- Start VBR sizing pass (1975 kbps)
- Sizing pass result: 0% on target (7 / 1194094094) Speed factor: 0.94
--------------------------------------------------------
- 2004-07-05 04:27:46
- Recover DVD2SVCD
--------------------------------------------------------
- 2004-07-05 06:38:36
- D2SROBA successfully finished
--------------------------------------------------------


and part of the dvd.ini from the target folder,see the CCE and Roba options used:
CCE Safe Mode=0
NoOfpasses=3
CCE Image Quality=17
CCE Anti noise value=2
CCE Anti noise=0
CCE Timecode=00:00:00:00
CBR=0
One Pass VBR=0
Calc Bitrate As Max=1
Multi Pass VBR=1
RoBa Multi Pass=0
RoBa Visibel=0
CCE Bias=20
CCE Field Order=2

do you saw something wrong?

BINGO! 8)

The "same quality" aspect is okay, I do not have problem with that. But fot the file size part, you said something different : you said that in two years you NEVER have a correct size in 2 (or more) passes. That means that even before to start making DVD, you had problem with the size in 2pass mode. Is that correct ?

I just want to know if I really need to do test with 2movie DVD because I never had any size problem with 2pass when I did SVCD. And I don't want to loose my time in useless test :-)

So if you tell me "with SVCD I didn't have size problem but NOW with DVD I have", then I will do some test myself for DVD. Else that is not necessary.

Why do you want me to see something wrong ???

(except than the computed Q is 40 that I find personnaly horrible so that is a good thing that Roba do not "just" encode with this Q value in 1 pass :-))

i forgot important details for my kdvds:
max: 8000
min:800
max average 7200
it all means: :arrow: extreme quality!!!

See that section from your log - RoBa is a one-pass variable encode tool but it will do the resizing pass if necessary. That's what we've been trying to tell you all day long.

correct Phil, i had problems a few time for dvd targets without Roba using 2 movies! :arrow: for DVDS!not svcds(svcds for 1 cdr-700mb sometimes).
here,we are working for big file sizes,different for svcds in one cdr!
:arrow: very important: i NEVER post something wrong about the results,in special for you! i believe that our target, is (always)good results trusting in friends recomendations, right? just do it,and without loosing time, target size and quality! c'mon do it Phil! :) TRUST ME!

see that in the logs, the options was choosed exact like i posted :!:
i pm to you this exact way a few weeks ago, remember?
find that pm and check...it's the same that i wrote here.

hey,you're turning it all confuse:
Q40 for cartoons with 720x480 using undot and deen is not bad.
i only did ONE time 3 movies in one dvd.
my personal choice is 2 movies that give me round Q20!
:arrow: you(and not me)are not reading the DETAILS in what i wrote :!:
Q40 is bad for svcd or less resolutions, acceptable for 720x480!
remember that this factor was for 1 of the 3 movies on the dvd media and not for all movies.
you are trying to find something wrong in what i did but remember that i choose max 8000,min 800 and average 7200.
if i was choosed max 5000 for example the Q will encrease.
i NEVER encode until i find the better options to encode!!!!
one factor(Q value alone) don't give quality...all options choosed give quality, not Q alone!
after my tests for that target was better with max 8000 with Q40, clear?

again(last time) i write:
choose Roba and encode.if the Q used was 30 for roba,
choose Q30 for 4 passes without Roba...post the results.
IF you don't do ,you will catch problems in what i posted all the time.
AFTER you do,you will get YOUR results and not what i wrote!

Boulder,i wrote that NO MATTER how many passes we choose in multipass vbr, the job is always the same. but multipass is better than cbr using Roba :arrow: in the results....seems the same but it's not. After you encode using the options and comparing the results you will SEE what is different!

jorel, for the last time:

RoBa does NOT do CBR, it does a one pass variable bitrate encode. The bitrate varies so that the quality is kept constant, just like CQ in TMPGEnc.

You can't choose the Q value for a multipass in CCE. You'll have to use the average bitrate you wish to achieve (this is why you get a correct filesize!)

right,my mistake..the default is "one pass vbr" that Roba use
from tylo home:
This plugin makes DVD2SVCD/CCE produce the same quality as a 4-5 pass VBR encoding, with only one single encoding pass (OPV).
http://home.tiscali.no/tylohome/index.php
- Quality based one-pass VBR encoding with CCE - fills last CD to the edge

but i choose multipass vbr for the reasons posted(if you read the reasons that i posted)!
3. Q. What does D2Sroba have to do with Internal RoBa provided inside DVD2SVCD?
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=64886
Tylo originally wanted to provide one-pass encodes in DVD2SVCD using CCE,...
7. Q. Really, does it compare to a 9-pass VBR?
It is actually better, IMHO. But don’t take my word for it. See for yourself!

Optionally doing a second VBR pass
If the first pass did not fit well, if it was very undersized or worse, oversized, a second pass is recommended or mandatory, respectively. The plugin then does the second pass, in VBR mode, adjusting the encode to the exact file size needed to fill the target media, and using the VAF file created in the first pass.
So regarding the “quality or size” dilemma, this method provides the best of both worlds. It lets you choose the quality of your encodes, and lets you fill the target media to its edge.
http://www.geocities.com/r6d2_stuff/IdiotsGuide/index

from jsoto post:
Hi jorel,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3 or 4 passes in CCE multipass with Roba
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFAIK, D2SRoBa always does the same algorithm. These choices in D2S are irrelevant. The magic of D2SRoBa is to do only one pass OPV (well, may be two in some cases), so the choice of 3/4 in D2S is simply unused.

:arrow: (well, may be two in some cases)

and....Never use "calc bitrate as max" with D2SRoBa: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76092
see the reasons:
I did a fresh installation last night and found to my horror that "calc bitrate as max" is checked by default in the CCE encoder tab when One Pass Vbr is selected.
and
It seemed to work, but then in retrospect :arrow: we realize this was just a close equivalent to CBR and the whole thing was abandoned as silly.
You can imagine what happens now if that stupid checkmark is left on when using OPV. Max bitrate is so constrained that OPV cannot really do much of anything. Like I said, you might as well be using cbr, at least you would get accurate filesize then. For some reason that I can't seem to understand, a few people still use it like this and so d2s has kept it in.

Ok guys this thread is becoming a little angry and i do not want to get involved but need to know

I really don't understand the settings to get CCE to do the best quality but am using DS2Roba

Are you guys saying this is not the best way or just A misunderstanding between Jorel and you 2.

In short is using DS2Roba a good idea :D

bigggt,
i posted how i do,why i use this way and i think that i'm the only one that using dvd2svcd(dd2dvd)with Roba got 2 movies with 2 audios ac3 from source and 2 subs for 1 Kdvd with perfect size.
:arrow: i can't find nobody here that got seamless results like me! but still i have opinions against my results if nobody test what i did...this is strange for me. but now it's irrelevant.
if you want the same result as i got, please follow the DDogg's recomendations in this thread,this is the way that i choose to got my results posted: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...0&pagenumber=1
please,atention in the 2nd,5th and in the 6th DDogg's post...is the resume to got that results! if you have doubts, please post in that thread cos(as you can see) my poor english is unclear, i can't explain better but i got the results posted. best is read the whole thread,ok?
only to remember: DDogg was beta tester of dvd2svcd(maybe still as beta tester) and you can trust in his recomendations!i am thankfull to DDogg cos following his recomendations posted in that thread,all my problems are gone(file size,audio ac3,etc,etc)
best regards

Thanx Jorel

I have read that thread many times so far :D ,and since you explained to me how to do this i have done 2 movies on 1 dvd and am very pleased with the result.

Its just when you get the main people like Yourself,Phil and Boulder having this discusiion it just makes me uncertain that i am doing it correctly,and sometimes i don'y understand what you guys are saying :D

I just wanted to make sure that DS2Roba was the way to go.

I don't know how you can do SVCD on 1CD but as I told, the majority of mines were on 2 CD, so I am talking about a 1.6GB target size, the same you have now for a DVD.

And again you did not understand me. It's not testing Roba that will be useless. It's comparing Roba to "normal" 2pass method taht will be useless because, and I repeat again, I never had ANY problems of SIZE (i'm just talking about SIZE here) with 2pass and I don't see why I should start to have some problem now.

Jorel I'm sorry to tell you that but you really have a personality problem. You always repeat again and again that you do not lie and you tell exactly what you are doing even when people repeat to you again and again that they had read (and understood) you. WE DO NOT NEED THAT ! We trust you at the first post ! It's more than boring, it's start to be insulting.

Yes it is.

The discussion with Jorel is just to make him understand how Roba achieve this quality and correct size at the same time because he is using it without having really understood all that stands below this method.

And A BIG PART of the discussion is because Jorel THINK we are saying that Roba is NOT a good method. Between what we are saying, what Jorel reads and what he is certain we have said (even if we didn't) there is a galaxy !

back to egg!

:arrow: for who don't know this thread:
a long time ago i was trying to explain what my poor english can't write.
for who don't know this thread here in page 3 have some details:
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....r=asc&start=32

:arrow: for all :
first my sincere excuses to my friends that posted here cos you are very helpfull when i need and always do the best for me and for the whole forum!
again i'm sorry for my incompetence to express my mind in english and sometimes my posts loose the scence :oops: this thread was turning hot and i was guilty cos for more that i was trying to explain i could not post it clear!

reading this link you'll can understand what i was trying to show:
start from the last 2 posts in this page:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...0&pagenumber=8
and follow to the next page: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...0&pagenumber=9

thanks! :wink: