Another high action KVCD-LBR sample
Here's another high action 2 minute sample contribution, so you guys can add it to your sample bucket :lol: ~11 MB.
The audio on this one was encoded with SCMPX, also at 112Kbps with Dolby Surround. http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/matrix-chopper-lbr.mpg -kwag |
Hi Kwag and Ren,
Thanks for your great work and effort. :D I just encoded "Predator", 106 minutes with KVCD-LBR and the quality was very good. 8) The file size 670 MB and audio 112. I have a question though. Since there was room left on the CD to improve the video quality even further, how should I adjust vbr_cq, min and max bitrate. Which would effect the picture quality the most and least effect the size. If a movie has lots of action vs little action, or dark vs not so dark, or wide screen vs full screen etc., how will effect file size. Would building movie profile chart give us some guide lines of where to begin setting vbr_cq, min and max bitrates based on similar movies. Just a thought. Again great work and I can't wait to see then KVCD-VLBR. -black prince |
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Hey Black prince, how are you. I made some tests with the CQ, and this wsa the results : Encoding Bram Stokers Dracula wich i chose because the fog and night scenes, very usefull to see artifacts I know that is a medium action movie, not high action as predator, that i've already encoded too, and it's a hard one. Well let's get to the point. CQ Time Filesize 20 1min 4,05Mb 25 1min 4,6 Mb 30 1min 5,3 Mb 35 1min 5,7 Mb 40 1min 5,9 Mb BUT, remember, as kwag said, this template is for convenience, not quality 20, it's the template image, wich is good ! 25, gets better, some artifacts that you could see are almost gone. 30 you almost see no artifacts. Of course that if you use 35 in CQ, you'll be using 352x240 PLUS. I'm talking about no sound movies, but the filesizes are very impressive. Just do the Math and see what you can do with predator. If you use the sound like KWAG told, in 64, not 128, you'll get some extra space, so give it a try. Still had no time to test the Max/Min bitrate, but i'll find some. Anyway, hope it helps C ya :wink: Pacodoni 8) |
Hi pacodoni,
Thanks for info. I going to get busy and do some testing. I used the default settings of KVCD-LBR. I will use this as my baseline to check quality vs filesize. I'll post my findings a.s.a.p. :) Thankx -black prince |
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Well, if everything runs ok, you soon can add a new topic as "180 Minutes of video with KVCD template" Yeah, i have encoded braveheart, using sound in 64, but it came a little bigger than green mile, i got 819 MB without any credits, but, as green mile, it was almost fullscreen, and, has some action scenes. Anyway, it's very cool use 3 hours on a cd. Just a thing, when you did greenmile, you used VCDEasy or Nero ? I've tried to use VCDEasy, but, it didn't let me burn, said that wasn't room... Is there something to do on it ? By the way, just for another test, i did Dracula, with the same template, sound at 80 and CQ on 40. The result got cool 8O , and the filesize was 799MB Well, thats it, now i'll keep on testing... |
hi Pacodoni,
Thanks for your info about filesizes with different CQ values- very helpful. To get VCDEasy to overburn-> settings / tools / CDRDAO / check allow overburn and force execution - that should make it work. Also I was wondering how 64kbps audio sounds? Is there much of a difference between 112 and 64? thanks! |
Hi All,
Here are my test results and my comments about picture quality. . GENERAL Movie: . Predator Time: .. 1 hr 46 min 26 sec (106 min 26 sec) . DVD2AVI Aspect Ratio: ... 4:3 Frame Rate: . 23.976 fps (Force Film) Frame Type: Progressive / Interlaced Audio: .... . None . FITCD Source: . 480 X 480 (SVCD) Crop: Accurate Resize: .. 336 x 224 Block TV-overscan.. 1 Destination: .. (VCD) 352 x 240 . AVISYNTH LoadPlugin("E:\DVD Backup\2 - DVD2SVCD\MPEG2Dec\MPEG2DEC2.dll") mpeg2source("D:\Temp\Predator.d2v") BilinearResize(336,224,0,0,480,480) TemporalSmoother(2,2) AddBorders(8,8,8,8 ) . TMPGENC Templet: KVCD-LBR (352x240) Video Input: .. Predator.avs Audio Input: . None . Test#1 (Time 1 minute) . CQ .Min bitrate .Max bitrate .File Size ..Picture Quality 20 ..300 .1150 6,043KB..... good 21 ..300 .1150 6,201KB..... same 22 ..300 .1150 6.341KB..... same 23 ..300 .1150 6,475KB..... same 24 ..300 .1150 6,597KB..... same 25 ..300 .1150 6,714KB..... same 26 ..300 .1150 6,818KB..... same 27 ..300 .1150 6,910KB..... same 28 ..300 .1150 6,987KB..... same 29 ..300 .1150 7,051KB..... same 30 ..300 .1150 7,106KB..... same *** Note picture quality for a standard television would not improve just by increasing CQ. HDTV is another matter. . Test#2 (Time 1 minute) . CQ .Min bitrate .Max bitrate .File Size ..Picture 20 ..300 .1150 6,043KB.... good 20 ..400 .1150 6,094KB.... good+ 20 ..500 .1150 6,155KB.... better (a) 20 ..600 .1150 6,318KB.... same 20 ..700 .1150 6,615KB.... same 20 ..800 .1150 6,946KB.... same 20 ..900 .1150 7,454KB.... same 20 ..1000 .1150 .7,971KB.... same 20 ..1150 .1150 8,551KB..... same (a) artifacts were almost gone, krona around people was the least visible, and distant objects appeared to have more detail. Increasing min bitrate above 500 also, did not improve picture quality. My conclusion from my own tests are that min and max bitrates had the most effect on the picture quality. I am encoding the entire movie using these settings (CQ=20,Min bitrate=500, max bitrate=1150) to judge the overall quality and filesize. If anyone would like to make suggestions to help improve my tests, please PM :) -black prince |
Hi Black prince
Cool info, the bitrates sounds very atractive, will trt em on. But, Did you really not saw differrence between 20 and 30 CQ's ? I don't know, maybe are different movies, but, anyway, i'll burn the bitrates you indicated, they looked very impressive. Well thanks for the info, great job. C ya round. :wink: Pacodoni 8) |
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I know what you mean... :) When i heard about 64kbps i wonder if it would work, but believe me it does, the sound is good, i've tested on the home theater, and sounds cool, the surround, everything. About 112 - 64, yes, you notice some difference, but not much, at least i didn't. Well, i'll keep testing, any suggestions, i'm all years. C ya :wink: Pacodoni 8) PS : Thanks for the info on VCDEasy :P |
KVCD-LBR Update!
Stay tunned. In about an hour, I'm posting an updated KVCD-LBR template, with a sample from the current template, and a new one with the updated template :lol:
Final testing going on now. Looks GOOOOD!!! :mrgreen: The changes affect the following: Lower the visual macro blocks, increase sharpness, and lower the artifacts level. More details in a while. @rendalunit, check your PM. -kwag |
KVCD-LBR-09132002-352x240-(NTSCFilm)-PLUS.mcf
As promissed. Here you go!.
http://www.kvcd.net/KVCD-LBR-09132002-352x240-(NTSCFilm)-PLUS.mcf Here's a sample with the KVCD-LBR that was released yesterday: http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/kvcd-old.lbr.mpg Here's the sample with the NEW KVCD-LBR update today: http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/kvcd-new.lbr.mpg NOTE: The audio on these samples is out of sync. I encoded with TMPEG's cut-edit, and something happened. So don't worry about it :wink: This update supercedes the template released yesterday, so the old one will be removed from the download page. Description of changes made to the new template: (1) Dropped one B frame. It was 3, now it's 2. This makes a tighter GOP, necessary because of such a low bit rate. Makes better picture. (2) Unchecked "Soften Blocks". Works better. (3) Dropped MIN bit rate from 300 to 64 :twisted: YES, that makes a BIG difference on dark scenes, by going way deep down on the bit rate, thus we save average bits!. (4) Changed motion precision from "Highest-Quality" to "High-Quality", No visual change, but almost twice the speed encoding now :lol: (5) Changed MAX number of frames per GOP to 15. Why? SURPRISE, just something popped into my mind :) If any of you guys are happy with this quality, then why not put your complete collection on a DVD :idea: DVD standard does specify 352x240 MPEG-1 at 48Khz audio. But the MAX frames per GOP can't be more that 15 for PAL or 18 for NTSC. So if you encode with the KVCD-LBR, but encode the audio at 48Khz, you have a DVD compliant mpeg file! You may ask, what for? Because if we can put 3 hours on a CD-R, NOW WE CAN PUT ABOUT 15-18 HOURS ON A DVD-R :mrgreen: Imagine this. You're on a 12 hour flight, watching your complete Star Trek collection on a single DVD :lol: Go ahead, think about the possibilities. Comments and ideas welcome :wink: Enjoy!, -kwag |
That Is The Best Info I've Received
Kwag
That long flight you talked about, well next week I depart for a 10 hour flight and I have the 10 Part Band Of Brothers stored in the VRO file format, guess where this going to be recorded and played back on my Panasonic LV55 Portable? Will let you know how it goes pior to departing................ Aloha Bud |
Re: That Is The Best Info I've Received
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Please let us know your results. The mpeg's should burn and play in every DVD player on the market, if encoded with audio at 48Khz. Just like the DMR-E20's lowest resolution mode. But that's MPEG-2. Still, you should have a better quality picture than the DMR's 6 hour mode :lol: and it should look pretty damn good on your portable DVD player! Have a good trip Bud! Later, -kwag |
Hi ren,
I got your email. The SVCD I used as source is very good quality. And yes, CQ 20 to 30 seemed to make very little difference in picture quality, but min and max bitrates helped. The final "Predator" movie size is 493MB and audio 192khz (150MB). This is the first time my movie sounded better than it looked. The one minute clip I chose was where Dutch is knealing down next to the truck and is about to put explosive on the back and lift it off the logs supporting the rear axel. It's approximately 24min 14sec into the movie. Taken one minute from this point there is intense action when the fire fight begins. Tmpgenc would be using lots of bitrates for these fast changing scenecs. I looked at the entire movie and close-up scenes were very good, but objects in the background were fuzzy. Scenes at medium and far distance were very fuzzy and sometimes blocky. Still this is good progress and needs tweaking Since Kwag has put out an updated KVCD-LBR today, I'll start testing again from square one. I also have a VCD encoded by panasonic encoder from the same source. It looks very good and has hardly any blocks and artifacts. However, the picture is generally not as sharp as KVCD-LBR for now. I believe this may be due to TS(2,2) since the original movie was filtered. The filesize is higher as you might expect (video = 710MB). As you can tell I am very interested in KVCD-LBR, since I play movies at work. Portability is very important to me. I am just glad you and Kwag are even trying to work with this type of problem. :D :D :D :D :D -black prince |
Kwag, Tested the new template's image, on Dracula, 8O Very good Image, and, using sound made with headache in 128, getsabout 5 meg per minute, of corse that if multiplex later the sound and image i guess the filesize would be smaller, but it's about 160 minutes of movies with 128 sound, And, maybe i'm wrong, but, you don't notice much difference from the 352x240 Puls, if, the new one isn't better.
I'll try more samples, configs of CQ, sound, etc, i'll post 2 ya all. Just a question, about the Min Bitrate, how can it be so low and get good results ? I didn't want to make any change on that, cos i guess it will be the best let it as it is. Wha do u think :?: Well, excellent work, Kwag and Rendalunit. :twisted: C ya :wink: Pacodoni 8) |
hi pacodoni,
I think that the lower min. bitrate results in less visible blocks in dark scenes. The new template looks excellent- I'm glad I now know that 3 hours of good quality audio and video on 1 cd is possible! I'm just doing testing of templates and samples like you and others here :D so I should be excluded from your credits :wink: thanks, randy |
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That's the beauty of CQ mode :lol: . It sustains quality, but when you go into dark scenes where there's hardly video data, the bit rate goes all the way down to the MIN set value. Before, I had set MIN=300. So even on a totally black screen, the video stream bit rate floor would be a 300Kbps stream. Now, it goes down to 64Kbps. This buys us smaller file size, without any quality loss. And you are right, there's very small difference from the 352x240 PLUS. Oh yes, there is! more than one additional hour of play time :lol: I need more feedback from people, because I think that if a movie is Wide Screen and audio encoded at 112Kbps, we can get more that 3 hours 8O . I just finished "When we were soldier" with the new LBR, and the video size is 582,020KB so I encoded the audio at full 224Kbps. Total file size is 819,282KB. This movie is 138 minutes. I also encoded some clips with the standard VCD template that comes with TMPEG, and there's barely any difference compared to the new KVCD-LBR. I watched the first 30 minutes last night on my 60" Magnavox TV ( Not HDTV ), and it looks like a good VCD. 8O Also everyone should take a look at this ( Thanks Latexxx! ) : http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1216 I just tried a small clip with the LBR, and the file size was reduced and looks excelent 8O Here's what my .avs looks like: LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\MPEG2DEC.dll") LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\Convolution3d.dll") mpeg2source("K:\SOLDIERS\VIDEO_TS\soldiers.d2v") BilinearResize(336,192,45,0,630,480) Convolution3d (1, 8, 8, 8, 8, 3, 0) #TemporalSmoother(1,2) AddBorders(8,24,8,24) Here's the web site for "Convolution3D for AviSynth" : http://hellninjacommando.com/con3d/ Another great tool! I'll be experimenting with this today :wink: So far, so GOOD :lol: -kwag |
Hi Kwag !!!!! :D
Good news are coming in battalions !!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I'll find some time to test the widescreen thing. Just a question ( i guess dumb a one ) the convolution filter, i just add in the avscrypt in FITCD ? C ya :wink: Pacodoni 8) |
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Tip for everyone trying out the Convolution3D: If you use this filter, the mpeg will be smaller, so you can increase the CQ_VBR in the LBR template from 20 to 22. This way, small artefacts are further reduced. The file size is just a tad larger. And BTW, based on my experience with the file size generated with the LBR, after seeing "We were soldiers" which is a full of action movie, I believe that for a regular movies that have normal action scenes, the LBR should easily hit 200 minutes with audio at 112Kbps or 128Kbps 8O 8O 8O Possibly fitting two regular movies on one CD-R. This has to be confirmed :roll: Try it out :idea: -kwag |
Thanks Kwag, i'm already encoding...
It's ok ( speking in encoding time ) takes 8 hours to a 129 min movie ? That's how my avs is : LoadPlugin("D:\Uteis\DVD - VCD\FitCD\MPEG2DEC.dll") LoadPlugin("D:\Uteis\DVD - VCD\FitCD\Convolution3D.dll") mpeg2source("D:\DRACULA\VIDEO_TS\draculia.d2v") BilinearResize(336,224,0,0,720,480) Convolution3d (1, 8, 8, 8, 8, 3, 0) #TemporalSmoother(2,2) If you have any suggestionon it, let me know !! Just for fun, i'm using cq at 30 and sound at 128 8O the average file per minute decrease to 5.9Meg. Well back to work C ya :wink: Pacodoni 8) |
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