jorel:

I can't speak for everyone but have you ever considered that there may be something wrong with the way you wrote it? :wink:

Did I say your encoding wasn't DVD-compliant? I said it seems compliant. So, what exactly are you whining about? Heh. :roll:

Because of your description of how you encoded and created the mini-KDVD? What exactly are you bitching about here again? Sheesh! :roll:

Read my response again, please. :wink:

===

Dialhot:

I understand that. But that is why I clarified that what I meant was the VCD and SVCD stream's built-in protection. Is that not VCD/SVCD-specific enough?

I didn't say "recovery" in that sentence, I said BUILT-IN PROTECTION. So, why then does Doom9's page make this distinction for VCD and SVCD streams (http://www.doom9.org/index.html?/xcd.htm -- first paragraph)? Is this the same "basic MPEG-2 protection" you mentioned or not? Why not say that MPEG-2 by itself has some basic protection instead of specifying VCD and SVCD streams?

"VCD and SVCD streams have some BUILT-IN PROTECTION so an additional protection on the data storage medium is no longer needed, which frees up space otherwise used for error correction."

If, according to the above quote, the additional protection is no longer needed, why do DVDs use it? Extra/Better protection? What is the built-in VCD and SVCD stream's protection good for, if, again, according to this quote, the additional protection is no longer needed? Do you understand now?

Thank you for finally answering my initial question. This "NO" would imply that the ONLY protection that Doom9's page refers to as VCD and SVCD stream protection is the same "basic" protection, you mentioned, that MPEG-2 has? So, again, why make the distinction for VCD and SVCD stream? Why claim that because of their built-in protection, the error correction is no longer needed?

===

Also, I never claimed to know everything about this issue. That is why I'm asking questions here, hoping people would know. It seems two replies so far are very agitated. I hope you won't explode from the frustration and calm down enough to bear with my questions, as I may have more. :wink:

I do appreciate you trying though. :wink:

Thanks.

Ask them !

SVCD (or VCD) contents just the MPEG2 (or 1) stream written on the media and structural directories. Nothing is added (except some information in the header of the mpeg).

They says that this feature exists in SVCD and VCD, they don't say that there is only in SVCD and VCD (or inother words, they don't say that this feature would not exists when not SVCD and VCD). You simply misunderstood the meanings of the sentence.

Note: FYI "SVCD streams" is equivalent to say "MPEG2 stream with spec compliant with the SVCD standard". And "VCD Streams" is equivalent to say "MPEG1 streams with spec compliant with the VCD standard".

What about DVDs? If they didn't, wouldn't that make them less secure in Mode2 than an SVCD? How are DVD VOBs, IFOs, etc treated on a DVD? As data or as streams with built-in protection? I know that what .VOBs contain ARE streams.

Also, one has the ability to put additional ISO files on SVCD/VCD disks, do they not? Anything from the option of storing original non-MPEG pictures in "Pictures" or "Images" folder to .XML descriptions. For example, in VCDEasy, I could drag an .EXE file on the VCD, if I wanted to. Sure, it won't be readable by stand-alones but it should be on a computer, no? In that case, that .EXE file would be LESS secure than on a Mode1 CD and less secure than an MPEG-1/MPEG-2 video on a VCD/SVCD, would it not?

A typical modern DVD movie disk would often contain computer extras, such as on any of the "Lord of the Rings" DVDs. And those extras too cannot be read by stand-alones. So, I'd imagine THAT would benifit from the error correction that DVD uses, correct? So, that means that IF such extra content was to be burned on a mini-DVD (or mini-KDVD, if you will) in Mode2 with ImgTool, such data would be less secure than on a DVD media, correct?

No, I didn't misunderstand it. I never said it ONLY existed in VCD/SVCD either. I wanted to point out that I could at least determine that it exists in VCD/SVCD but was also curious whether the situation with mini-DVDs was the same or not. And, if not, how it could be improved, such as encoding its streams with VCD's and SVCD's built-in protection. Hence, was my question. :wink:

Yes, I know that. And I was curious whether authoring such streams on a mini-DVD would improve mini-DVD's protection against errors or not. I was also curious whether the built-in protection was limited to such streams and if DVD's MPEG-2 stream did not contain it. Last but not least, if the situation was such that built-in protection was part of VCD and SVCD streams only, would it be more secure to encode an MPEG-2 stream as SVCD stream minus SVCD-compliant resolution (which technically wouldn't be an SVCD-compliant stream anymore but retain its built-in protection nonetheless). However, it is apparent now that it's not limited to VCD and SVCD only and is simply a basic protection of MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 no matter where and how it is authored.

I still have a question though. Just how much protection does the built-in protection of MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 streams provide? Are there any tools that can at least ATTEMPT to use it to recover or PARTIALLY recover such streams from scratched CDs? If not, what is its usefulness?

Thanks.

In which language should I tell you that SVCD ARE NOT MORE SECURE THAN OTHER THINGS ?

You said "Yes, I know that" but in fact you didn't understood anything to what I wrote .
People that write "SVCD stream" are just too "lazy" to write the exact and complete definition that is "MPEG2 Streams with spec compliant with the SVCD standard". Can you understand that ?

SVCD streams ARE MPEG2 streams. DVD streams ARE MPEG2 steams. The only diff between the two are their spec (resolution, bitrate, samplerate (of the audio)...).

:arrow: IF 480*480 was a valid resolution for a DVD stream and 48 Khz was a valid samplerate for SVCD, then you will have some SVCD streams that would be also DVD streams and "vice-versa".
:arrow: AS 352*240 MPEG1 stream is a valid resolution for DVD, if 48 Khz was a valid samplerate for VCD then VCD streams would be DVD streams. What do you say about that :?:

It it was, then yes. But as it is not...

MPEG2 decoder (the chipset that is in your standlone) use plainly and permanently this recovery feature.
There is nearly zero chance to read exactly what is written on a CD. a lot of "zero" are read as "1" and the opposite. This is the case in any format : audio, video, or data.
(that is why, when you try to ripp an audio CD, some drives are better to extract audio in digital mode that others for instance).

Just to finish :
1/ yes an exe copied on a SVCD is less secure than on a mode1 CD because it it written in MODE2 and do not benefits of the protection of mode1
2/ yes an exe copied on a SVCD is less secure than the MPEG2 of this same disc because exe files does not include built-in protection that all MPEG2 files (and not only SVCD ones) include.

All is corrrect.

the whole forum knows that i can't write in good english but don't confuse my poor words with my knowledge! :wink:

this is the one of the hard parts in english for me cos if someone say:"hey,that guy "seems" Elvis, means that HE IS Not Elvis....only :arrow: SEEMS ! :roll:
i DID as dvd and not SEAMLESS dvd!

but i ask you: and you answer only what think and using words like:" bitching" my poor english only understand that your mind is one (little )garbage.or better: a trash!
i don't want to read and write any garbage..sorry....was your words and my poor english reading that. :roll:
WHERE is a simple answer asking about the local of the error, and not waiting for bad education!
:arrow: i'm still waiting WHERE you found something wrong and not a simple and dirty opinion. :lol:

Wow, what a joyful friendly bunch! I don't know why the two of you have the need to try to belittle anyone who's asking questions. It's as if you expect everyone to know everything about this issue and never ask. What happened to "if you don't know for sure, just ask"? Doesn't work very well here it seems... I'll respond nonetheless. :wink:

When did I ever say that they were? Did you not read what I asked? Let me spell it out for you... I asked whether DVD-Video content on a format similar to Mode2 on CD (Yes, I know DVDs use a different structure) would be less secure than an SVCD or not? I didn't state it as a fact, I was asking! Hence, the question mark at the end. Was it really that difficult to just say "No, because..." instead of exploding in frustration? Sheesh! This is like pulling teeth... :roll:

I say that it is you who seems to fail to understand what I was saying. Let me try to spell it out as simple as I can again... I know that SVCD streams are MPEG-2 and I know that DVD streams are MPEG-2. I know what their respective compliant resolutions and bitrates are (check www.videohelp.com if you don't know). What I WAS asking is whether SVCD (MPEG-2) streams were unique in a way of providing an extra built-in protection or whether DVD streams (also MPEG-2) had such protection as well. We later came to an understanding that DVD's MPEG-2 streams have the same protection. Moreover, I was explaining what I was asking initially because you didn't seem to understand. And yet, you responded as if I'm still asking that question. I don't know how much more simple I can describe this to you...

Do you see a question mark in my quote you provided? That was part of a paragraph where I was explaining that this is what I was initially asking. At the end of that paragraph I explained that it is apparent that the situation is not like that. Selective reading? :roll:

That is the answer I was looking for. See, was it that hard to explain? Also, if there's nearly a zero chance to read exactly what is written on a CD, what makes it possible with AVIs on XCDs? Yes, I know, you need to install an XCD filter to read them on computer. But what makes it possible to read an .AVI on it if it doesn't contain (or does it?) the same basic built-in protection that MPEG-2 streams do? Or is it taking advantage of that "nearly a zero chance" as opposed to "always a zero chance"? Wait, don't answer that, you might end up popping your veins in frustration.

I know, I was speaking of an example (SVCD), not assuming that MPEG-2 built-in protection was limited to SVCD only. I think we made it clear by now.

Thank God! 8)

PS Me thinks you may not know as much as I thought you did. Maybe I'm asking the wrong person here. Perhaps that is what's making you so mad in your responses.

To jorel:

Hey, you said it (in your original response), not I! I never "picked" on your bad english, you did all the work yourself :wink:

Bad analogy. There's only ONE Elvis and there are MANY DVDs that adhere to a DVD spec/standard. :wink:
Your analogy would be closer to "I bought these clothes and learned how to sing and talk like Elvis, according to this 'Elvis look-alike' guide, so do I look or seem like Elvis now?" :wink:

You mean you can't read your own posts? Is your english so bad that even YOU can't read it? :lol:

No, I think you've just clearly proven that your mind is garbage and trash because that's all that's coming out of your mouth. Friggin' hypocrate! Where did I ever say that I found something wrong with your encode? It seems you have a problem reading english too, let alone writing it. Speaking of education -- learn a better english, idiot, before shooting yourself in a foot. You said the whole forum knows of your bad english -- I wonder if the whole forum knows you're an idiot too? :roll: :lol:

===

PS You know, it's probably best if either of you didn't bother responding to me anymore. I don't want you two to have a heart attack or something... I'll take my questions on another forum, perhaps they have a better knowledge and are more friendly there, and hopefully, don't require large dozes of Valium. Thanks for those few responses that didn't contain any bitching and whining but clear normal answers. Take care. 8)

Do we need a question mark to correct someone that starts a sentence with "if it was.." by telling him "stop making 'if', with "if' the earth would be square..." ?

Please note than you had the answer as soon as you asked clearly the question. How should I guess that this is the question you were asked when you started from comparing SVCD and mini-DVD ? ;-)

Avi can contain a lot of different codecs. MPEG4 (divx...) have the same protection than MPEG2, but others codec can be different. With them, XCD are surely higly risky. And okay, with "nearly zero chance" I was a little over the reality.

I never did XCD but I guess that besides the tutorial on how to create them there is a warning telling "be carrefull, the result is not guaranteed". Isn't it ?
At least we did :-D

A knowledge """so big""" that by reading their FAQ you started to be convinced that SVCD had magical wonders... 8)

Note: Doom9 was the first place to post your question, isn't it ? Let me guess..: you tried but you didn't follow the tons of rules of this """wonderfull""" and """highly""" friendly board so you were banned before even finish to ask your very first question ? :lol:

Elrik,
prooving that you don't read and want to win (don't know what you want to win)
i posted: "where" is the place that you found something wrong.
you can't understand your own language:
"where" is the place you read something outside dvd compliances.
sorry if one idiot is teaching you your own language.

after read your clever and wonderfull english with perfect words,
i can really understand what you mean:
:arrow: you're sick!
i'm not answering you, i have pity of your family and friends........friends? :? .....i can't believe that you can have!


in any language, in all countries the word "SEEMS" never will means "IS".
bye and call a doctor!

@ mods and admins:
for my taste this guy deserve be banned, he don't have competence to be a member here.....he think that have wonderful knowledge but don't teach anything and with just a few posts is trashing his paranoia in this forum offending me and posting only stupid arguments.
for me is the end of the road and i never will answer anything for that guy. he have extreme competence to speak too much without say any construtive word.
thanks all and bye Elrik..
i'm really sorry cos "El" means "from GOD or with GOD".
:arrow: change your username here and in all forums...
you don't deserve that title!.......but maybe you can't trust in GOD!?!?...well,is your problem.
carry your own weight and you'll be very tired in the end!
i am tired and faster,i can't stand arrogants like you! good bye.
oh...you can correct my poor english and send me a mail with my own post in wonderfull english....will mean that you understood what i wrote!
:hihi:

:mrgreen: were you talking about me, Phil ;-)
Hey Elrik,
Don't worry.
I've seen this happening lots of times.
Some guys come here and just start on the wrong foot.
But I assure you, with time you will realise that "all that knowledge" you can find at that other forum is not all available to you.
Sometimes you can almost touch it but you can never grab it...
Yes, so many of us tried it there also; many of us are regular members at both kvcd / D9 / Vcdhelp but soon we realise that at the end of the day we always come home ;-)
It's not only a question of how knowledgable they are, it's also how friendly, helpfull and open minded they are.
You'll find lot's of very knowledgable members here, too.
In fact you already found Phil and Jorel 8)
Stick with us and I'm sure you won't feel disapointed.
And you can always browse D9 / Vcdhelp forums too :)
Cheers