Aspect ratio, source, player, tv.. what a mess!
Hi all,
So correct setting for pal are 720*576@25fps. First, what do I have: - Old tv. 4:3 screen but with a capability of displaying 16:9 by adding black bars (this is a tv menu option). Not good but bearable. Next tv is going to be 16:9 for sure :-) - DVD player. Unbranded but seems to do a good job on displaying 16:9 on 4:3 if setup to do so (black bars again) - Sources are 16:9 With kvcd I was using source 4:3 dest 4:3 for aspect ratio on tmpgenc. Now for kdvd I've an option on source/dest aspect ratios in tmpeng (if I understood correctly) Should I use source 16:9 dest 16:9 on tmpgeng? 4:3/16:9? 16:9/4:3? Should I leave this alone at 4:3/4:3as per kdvd template setting? If the latter, should I do some resizing in avisinth? What if a source is 2.11:1? As you can see I'm definiitively lost here... PD: of course feel free to point any past threads, manuals, etc. I don't seem to be succesful when using search with numeric strings. Thanks in advance Dei:Bit |
Re: Aspect ratio, source, player, tv.. what a mesh
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If you plan to buy an 16:9 TV, and as your current TV is abble to display anamorphic picture, then you should use 16:9 also for the target. Quote:
It's better to have these flags generated (and inserted) in the video, so use 16:9, 16:9. Quote:
But be carrefull : avisynth scripts are all 4:3 ! Then you will need to use "4:3" for sources (and not 16:9). The destination will be 16:9 is you asked to the script to resize the picture with an anamorhic A/R, or 4:3 if you asked to it to do a 4:3 A/R. I know, it's a little complicated at first but in fact it is very simple... Quote:
Anamorphic can be whatever from 1.85 to 2.35:1 |
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Anyway I understand now anamorphic is any non 4:3 proportion having width > heith Quote:
Why would they do that? Couldn't them have used this "anamorphic" flag instead? Quote:
Of course I'm triying to understand the optimal posted scripts here :-) So scripts are not anamorphic except when they are? :-) Lets see: would then be the same if I didn't do any resizing in avisynth, then select source 4:3 target 16:9 in tmpgenc? If I understand I would end up with a correctly flagged anamorphic target. Or would I loss some quality by resizing in tmpgeng istead of avisynth? Quote:
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One cuestion: does the anamorphic flag include some information on the actual proportion so de player can handle adecuately these non 16:9 anamorphic video streams? If so I could select 16:9/16:9 on tmpgenc and forget? but tmpgeng only handles 1:1, 4:3, 16:9 and 2,11:1... hmm.. maybe the stream should be resized to one of these in avisynth prior to be fed to tmpgenc :?: What a wonderful lot of things I'm learning!! Thakns a lot for all your advice :-) I'm starting to think that this thread maybe belongs to another forum at kvcd.net. Please, feel free to move it if adecuate. Thanks, Dei:Bit |
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An anamorphic picture is a widescreen picture distorted to enter into a 4:3 square. The counterpart is a letterboxed picture (insteed of distort the frame, you add black borders, like your TV set does when you ask him to display what you call a 16:9 picture). :arrow: So an anamorphic picture IS 4:3 :!: Quote:
Now you see the diff between a 4:3 (letterboxed) picture and an anamporphic one :-D Quote:
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Incidentally this was going to be my next question 8) Quote:
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.... googling .... googling .... Well, finally I found GripFit_YV12.zip wich contains a grip.dll wich in turn implements gripcrop. Problem is: it doesn't contain any docs, only binary, license and source... It seems to me that this should be a fairly common operation so, whats the deal? Quote:
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Thanks, Dei:Bit |
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If in this script, you configured gripcrop to do "dest_anamorphic=true" then you have to put the dest to 16:9, else you the dest will be also 4:3 |
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I could really use any proper documentation for gripcrop (or whole gripfit_YV12 for that matter). The only thing I found is a post here pointing to another post describing the gripfit command v 0.1 from SansGrip. http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2292 Is this the same beast, maybe with a name change? SansGrip's websit doesen't seem to have anythig related either.. http://www.indeus.com/sansgrip/avisynth :?: :?: :?: |
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My intension was to give you the link to this thread but it seems I forgot to paste it in my previous answer :-D There is no other doc. You just have to read all the thread because the filter changed a little after first tests and so did the usage. Note: FYI we do not use gripcrop generally, but we use a tool (fitcd) that give to us the correct resize/addborder lines according to the source and the destination we want. If you wish you can try to learn it also. But that makes a lot of things at a time. |
Yhanks a lot :-)
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bool GripCrop::IsAnamorphic(GripCrop::STANDARD standard, const Dimensions& dim, AVSValue def) Phil, this has been a very iluminating conversation. Not the kind of "set this and that" but the kind that makes one understand how things work and why. This is what I think is needed for beginners so we can start making our own informed decisions. Again , thanks a lot :!: PD: now I've a lot of testing to do and after that I'll look for the correct forum to post questions on other obscure matters, such as interlacing :-) |
Re: Yhanks a lot :-)
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Re: Yhanks a lot :-)
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I only have one DVD which is not progressive. But I have been told that music concerts DVDs are mostly done in interlaced. But since this is the AVI part of the forum maybe drequena was talking about TV captures. BTW, thank you both for such a constructive thread. It is a reference for further newbies in need of help. Cheers |
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I don't understand the reason for that. What is the problem feeding TMPG with an AVS stream that has no anamorphic flag but is intended to be anamorphic, and set/inform TMPG that the source IS anamorphic :?: |
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:arrow: Anamorphic means 4/3. |
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That is exactly what I was trying to say. (sorry for my poor english :oops: ) I should have said: "feeding TMPG with an AVS stream (that has obviously no anamorphic flag)". Quote:
I thought that anamorphic meant a 16/9 AR display, or in other words, a picture (that isn’t necessary 4/3) that will be distorted to 16/9 at playback. And that is why is possible to have anamorphic streams with differente resolutions and AR.... :?: :roll: |
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- A stream with picture dimensions 160x90 would be 16:9 but not anamorphic. - Apicture with pic. dims. 400x300 could be anamorphic or not. It would be anamorphic if it's distorted so when "vertically narrowed" looks with correct proportions. So with the former stream you've two options: you add borders so you get 4:3 letterboxed or you vertically stretch picture sou you get anamorphic (4:3 pic. dims. 16:9 A/R) Well, I' hope I got it at last :roll: |
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Anamorphosis was used first in theaters, to put all kind of formats on the same old film and material used sinces years (and that have 4:3 format). At this time you had a specific lens to put in front of the projector to perform the "deanamorphosis" of the picture and to restore the real A/R. Each A/R has its own lens (1.85, 2.21, 2.35...). For electronic, they choosed a simple way : only 1.77 (16:9) A/R and 4:3 A/R are supported by the material. All other formats use black bars. Quote:
(a 16:9 anamorphosed picture, if you do not restore it, is displayed as a 4:3 fullscreen) I don't understand how someone that did Moviestacker can have such question ? 8O Use FitCD if you want to have something "visual" about what is anamorphic/fullscreen related to different A/R. |
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And for a correct playback you will have to "compress" what you previously stretched. |
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1) All normal DVD material is 720x576 or 720x480, be it anamorphic or full screen (or letterboxed which is basically the same as full screen, it's just that there's borders instead of film pixels) 2) stuff flagged as 16:9 is scaled to nnnn x 576/480 on playback if you have a 16:9 display. nnnn is something like 1280 pixels (the dirty details and calculations are somewhere to be found, I'm sure). If your display is 4:3, the output is 720x576/480 with borders to correct the A/R. 3) stuff flagged as 4:3 is played as it is, the SAP doesn't scale. The output is 720x576/480. Is this how it goes? |
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I found this while performing some tests with your v4 script. Quote:
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Movies shown on TV are mostly progressive. Determining whether something is progressive or interlaced is not that hard, so no need to worry :D |
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(TV can't display progressive stream, except for few new models). |
For example Hollywood movies are broadcast progressive, because the original content is progressive. If you see combs, someone has screwed up the NTSC->PAL conversion progress or has used a converter box which creates a fieldblended monster (that can be restored to progressive 23.976fps with Restore24 :wink: ). The other option is that it's field shifted, which Telecide will fix easily.
The output is pseudo-interlaced : the two fields are exactly the same, when you separate them, you'll see that the other one is displayed slightly lower than the other. Temporally there is no difference. With truly interlaced material, each field is different (provided there's the slightest amount of motion/noise), temporally and spatially. |
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Is gripborders thant triggers acces violation. Take a 720x432 (that's 1.67:1 or 5:3). As both dims. are mod16, blindpp works happyly (whatever it does to the stream). With this proportion vertical borders are needed in order to get 16:9 A/R anamorphic (because of proportion < 1.78:1). Avisynth crashes with an acces violation. I performed several tests as first command in the script: Code:
addborders(0,0,48,0) Code:
crop(0,16,0,-16) Which in this particular case gave(overscan=1): Code:
LanczosResize(704,560,0,1,720,430) At this point I don have a clue if image got a bit distortes as I don't understand what fitcd call "real aspect". It certainly is not width/heigth. Anyway it loock very good, so I think I remain with fitcd instead of gripcrop/gripsize/gripborders. alternatively, adding as a firstliner Code:
bicubicresize(720,432) |
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(can I have your complete script ?) |
Of course, you can have it:
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# bicubicresize(720,432) only used here to force crash on a source not having these dimensions. New finding: For the former to be true source has not to have borders. If source already has them then you don't get this crash :?: http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/error.gif Addresses change from source to source but remain invariable for different executions on the same source. As per avs version http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/error.gif Hope this helps |
Try the latest Avisynth alpha, http://sf.net/projects/avisynth2 . A lot of bugs have been fixed since January 2004.
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And please try to not upscale your video, but yo crop it to 544*576 for instance.
I never used Gripcrop to have a target bigger than the source, and I'm not sure it works with it. |
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On the oder hand if you crop the problematic source (originaly 720x432) to be 720x400 it processes well too. So it's not source related but source video proportion related. Other < 1.75:1 proportions give the very same error. Try cropping any avisource without borders to 360x216 (1.67:1), 320x216 (1.48:1 ) or 344x248 (1.39:1) Even more, for any source (no previous borders): - cropping to 360x208 --> 1.73:1 crashes - cropping to 360x206 --> 1.75:1 works So gripborders does not appear to manage well any source with less than 1.75:1 proportions except if source allready has borders :roll: |
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Do the exact same tests with this : GripCrop(352, 288, overscan=1, source_anamorphic=false, dest_anamorphic=true) |
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GripCrop(544, 576, overscan=1, source_anamorphic=false, dest_anamorphic=true) But issue remains: With sources 720x320 (2.25:1) it works flawlesly and that's a lot more upscaling (borders added). As soon as you fall below 1,75:1 thing go south. Also 720x432 is a near 16:9 proportion that should be posible to adapt to anamorphic without much cropping, nor going all the way down to kvcd resolutions. Just as fitcd does :-) Anyway, don't mind. I stay with fitcd |
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Gripcrop never gave me any problem whatever the source reso to go downsize (btw you should never upsize a video). But I can't tell you how were the A/R of the source actually. But as you understood yet, Fitcd gives better control on what is done and it's better to use it. |
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Anyway, first, I never said that I did MovieStacker from scratch. I always told here (many times) that I took shh’s code (advised by himself) and improved it (mainly, but not only, in the avs script generation; imho) and I’m sure that you were there to here it most of the times. Second, I can say for sure that I know very little about video encoding, but every little bit of knowledge that I have about this matter I learned here in this forum, and I’m still in a process of constant learning. I believe we all are, aren’t we :?: I was trying to raise a question, discuss it, and learn something. So please, get down from this kind of gold pedestal you put yourself on and don’t stop my trying for learning... :idea: :wink: I’ll try it again (i mean to discuss and learn :) ): Quote:
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What you said is the process to get the anamorphic picture, not the anamorphic picture itself. So, saying it again, an anamorphic picture is an image with X:Y dimension (that does not need to be 4:3) that need to be distorted to 16:9 to be viewed with the correct proportions. This is exactly what drequena said here: Quote:
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In your example you have a 4:3 picture dimension (400x300), but it does NOT need to be 4:3! We have anamorphic pictures with many different dimensions. The most used is 720x480... that is NOT 4:3 :!: |
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Any stuff flagged as 4:3 (that is not 4x3) will be scaled to 4:3 when playback. Be it 720x576/480, 544x576/480, 480x576/480, etc... |
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:arrow: As an anamporhic picture is a 16:9 distorted into a 4:3 box, then (and of course), to render it you must "undistort' is back to 16:9. But to take the problem from the start : the avs script that you use to feed the encoder produces a 4:3 picture WHATEVER it is anamorphic or not. |
If I may add something (perhaps it will confuse people, perhaps not :roll: )
The biggest problem with the whole "AR/anamorphic/resolution"-thing, is that people tend to calculate AR from the resolution. This is, as most of you have noticed now, wrong (tm). PAL and NTSC have a respective resolution of 720x576 and 720x480, neither from which you can calculate the AR, which is in both cases 4:3. While a computer display has 1:1 pixel aspect ratio this is not true for TVs, hence we see the picture still as normal. So ona normal TV 720x576 or 720x480 = 4:3. Anamorphic means, that this 4:3 frame is used to store a picture which is not 4:3 but 16:9 (anamorphic is always 16:9). A "normal" 4:3 TV will display this image distorted unless black borders are added, which is why it is called anamorphic. On a 16:9 TV there are of course no troubles (not for 16:9 at least :) ). So when Dialhot says: Quote:
Hope this makes sense... |
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1-) I believe we agree that the AR of an anamorphic frame is always 16:9. 2-) We also agree that an anamorphic frame can have various resolutions (with that I mean frame size/dimension). So if an anamorphic frame is not 4:3 AR and not 4:3 resolution, then where is the 4:3 you are saying :?: (keep reading...) Quote:
We already saw that it can use many different resolution/frame sizes. And you say that we have to call it 4:3 just because it uses a resolution/frame size that is "natively used" for 4:3 AR :?: We are not talking about what is natively used. We are talking about anamorphic... and that is not 4:3 but 16:9 :!: |
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