At the german DVDboard where also Productmanagers from Xoro are members, it couldn't be proofed that anamorph mp4 sources do play back properly at the right SAR/PAR. No Mention the other brands which also do mess up in that issue. So the future could bring that feature to more brands/players.

Even if there do exist 2 or 3 SAPs supporting this .... in the forthcoming month another feature would come up in the mp4 asp/avc development and then again no proper playback support via "these" SAPs will be given.

If you do focus on latest video codec developments and al its features, a HTPC will be obligatory (just imho).

This wasn't a mpeg4 "neither" a mpeg2 problem. It was a ABR encoding problem where the bitrateallocation is totally different then in 2pass mode.
The Source is seen in its quality very good (for shure in such a complex texture for getting Quants of 2 in mpeg2 a bitrate of 15000 would be needed.


Also the subjective good results out of the h264 compressing technique is NOT only the encoding approach of the codec but also the decoding technique as on such high texture problems the deblocking routines while decoding are far more advanced then at any inner mpeg2 decoder deblocking algorhythm.

Switch simply your SAP is in 16/9 mode. "You can make anamorphique encoding in nero standard for your SAP" is not "anamorph mp4 sources do play back properly at the right SAR/PAR"


In fact most of hold SAP will be able to read mp4 (Nero Standard) or divx (DivX 6 standard) with simple FirmWare Update because SAP are compatible with video codec (MPEG4 ASP) and audio codec (MP3 and LC-AAC). Container, menu, chapter, subtitles are "only" FW problem ...

MPEG2 in this particular scene (Kill Bill for example) is unable to encode correctly because bitrate RC saturation (for vbv DVD compliance). Encoder must use very high quantizer for vbv compliance.

If you want example see that: I encode this sample with TMPGEnc with your knotch matrix and CQ 100 (9500 Kbps for average bitrate ... !!!)

and it's a blocking festival ...
http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/error.gif

It is not because MPEG2 is unable to encode correctly this part but only with ultra high local bitrate (parhabs 50 Mbps in q2 for this example). In fact DVD standard is unable to encode very complexe motion + very complexe texture.

EDITED
Please disregard the previous version of this post.
Now I understand why I couldn't download Sagittaire's movie.
The URL is wrong.
Take it here.
Cheers

Ok, I finished watching the source.
To all those that are interested in this, please open lossless.m2v with VirtualDubMod and browse to frame number 259 (which I believe is where Sagittaire got his above posted picture).
May I say that TMPGEnc did a hell of a job by keeping all the dancing blocks that can be seen in the source movie.
Crap in - crap out.
This is not MPEG-2 fault although I am inclined to agree with you that MPEG-2 has his limits and that MPEG-4 has other "weapons" to fight against blocky encodes and against high bitrates.
Cheers

Try OGG Theora at 720x480 @ around 800Kbps, and compare it to a 720x480 H.264 at that same bitrate.
Then tell me which is more advanced ;)
http://www.v2v.cc/~j/ffmpeg2theora/
However!, the Apple implementation of H.264 is getting better, and it's far superior than the free H.264 implementation floating on the net, which is VERY poor compared to Apple's.

-kwag

That's strange, because I just re-encoded the lossless.m2v, without any filtering, and just using our notch matrix, at CQ=85, MAX=9800, MIN=300, and here's the result: http://www.mytempdir.com/335664 (Added bonus, the file is now only 12,264KB. About 2MB smaller )
There's very little difference from the original, and in the end, on the water, there are blocks all over the source too :!:
So as Rui said: Trash-In, Trash-Out (Although the other scenes are very nice)

-kwag

lol ... you think that I'am noob in encoding ... source is 720p source without blocking. This sequence is particulary blocky just because quant is high for DVD vbv respect.

Be carrefull ... I don't say TMPGEnc and KVCD profil "sucks" ... all the other MPEG2 encoder fails with these extreme sequences ( I test libavcodec, CCE, HC and other). It's just MPEG2 with DVD vbv limitation problem ...


In fact I actually test but x264 HP and ateme HP are very better and by far. Apple H264 implementation is very crap. If you have little vob I can make demonstration with ateme HP encoder. In fact Ateme HP is certainely able to encode 720p at 800 Kbps with good quality ... 8O

Here just little part of the source
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Download/lossless.avi

Be carefull ... not lossless but MPEG4 ASP quant 1 encoding (in practice it's lossless yor eyes). As you can see not blocking for the source. In fact all this source is incredibily detailled whit very high motion level part (water motion) and with very complexe texturing. This source is a MPEG2 killer ... ideal source for extreme comparison MPEG2 encoder (With this particular source Libavcodec is the best and by far).


And Kill Bill 1 generic introduction is like these particular sequencies. Conclusion: initial problem is not only MPEG4 reencoding but DVD MPEG2 encoding too (If you want screenshoot ... I can make that). "So as Rui said: Trash-In, Trash-Out (Although the other scenes are very nice) " is good analyse in this case ... ;-)

a) Its the sense of a SAR/PAR Flag to provide to the decoder the information for proper pixelaspectratio final playback on your PC or for correct letterboxing on a 4:3 TV Set. IF the TV Set is 16:9 then a SAP should also have a Widescreen Ouput Mode via OSD so the image will be send to the SAP in a par 128/117 state as it is. The TV finally desqueezes it. If not respecting this, the source height will be decreased and finally width and height will be bumped up "both" on a 16:9 TV.

Till now I've no seen any mpeg4 SAP which does treat a correct PAR/SAR anamorph encoding correct! Even if it reaches the 16:9 TV Set in a correct PAR, you can see the that an internal nonsense interpolation has been done.
Thats also why on even most mpeg4 compatible SAPs no proper mpeg4-interlaced output is given.

b) a simple firmware update isnt the cure on every cases, its also a hardware chipset based issue (D/A converter).


As I told ...
"My" KillBill version at the MIRAMAX Intro results quite good in that DVD compilant source state (almost no Blocks, far awy from your "blocks-sample" from that other movie you used), but as said if no Blocks should result a much higher bitrate etc. is needed.

Many People do think DVD "is" the quality but thats a big rumour.
DVD mpeg2 4:2:0 @MainProfile is an end-consumer format.
Hi-Q Source Storages are professionally made at 50Mbit/sec, 4:2:2 and I-frame only mpeg2 (which "almost" equals an mjpeg 4:2:2 stream at 6.25Mb/sec.)

But we where talking about the blocks at the beginning of my "fast'n Trashy-setting ABR x264 encoding" and these where the result due a ABR encoding and its not temporal-based used Bitrateallocation.
And even at these trash-settings I was IMPRESSED about the resulted quality seen in average of the whole encode.

Thanks for the AVI its a good testing source.

Perhaps not good with my particular source ... I will try ... lol
IMO lossless encoding is always the best way for professional use.

For *.mp4 and *.divx container it's generally possible with the most commun MPEG4 chip (mediatek, sigma, zoran ... etc) like for example FW nero digital update for old kiss SAP. Don't forget too that .divx container is only a extended .avi container. Large majority of MPEG4 SAP are able to play .divx files correctly without FW update (without xml menu at this time).

Maybe In your opinion but targets for "professional" use do also lay on professional standard formats like Betacam IMX (Mpeg-2@ 50 MBit/s @ CBR) or Digital Betacam (2:1 DCT Compression) etc.
Not uncompressed raw YUV neither HuffYUV or the common lossless codecs used in the amateur video communities.

For everyone attention :
Means : "no way to discuss with me... I'm always right... at least I'm convinced about that and that's enough".

(avec plein de fautes d'orthographe au passage...)

I let you evaluate the "humor" behind this signature...

LOL good catch.
But up to some extent I think he is right.
MPEG-4 can work pretty well with average or low bitrates whereas MPEG-2 has many limitations in that area.
These limitations are what we try to workaround everyday when we encode in KVCD or KDVD.
Nevertheless I would still like to see an encoder (MPEG1/2/4) handle is lossless.mpg and make the encoded clip better than the source clip.
TMPGEnc did a hell of a job on his baaaaaad source ;-).
Cheers

For sure, BUT MPEG-2 scales FAR better than MP4 or even H.264 on very high bitrates, and that's a fact :!:
That's why MPEG-2, I frame only @50Mbps, is what's used in broadcast studios for high quality archival ;)

Edit: BTW, a friend of mine does just that, and has done several commercials for customers who air on "***vision", and guess what format he delivers the material :mrgreen: (But nobody is aware that KDVD Notch is in there :cool: )
Sorry, but I'm not allowed to give out more information :crazy:

-kwag

Is it a new commercial usage of the Notch ?

Actually, it's been used for over a year :D
Just take TMPEG and encode something MIN=300, MAX=50,000, and use the Notch matrix and I frame only, CQ=100.
See what you get ;)
Also, I'll let you all in on a little secret, because I think it's time :!:
On high average bitrates, KDVD Notch PRODUCES CLEANER VIDEO and less macroblocks than the industry standard MPEG matrix, and I will now provide a clear example of what I mean.

Using a piece of the clip that Sagittaire provided, here's a comparison of an encode using TMPEG with "standard" MPEG matrix and KDVD Notch.
Both encodes were made with MIN=300, MAX=50,000, and CQ=40 using *I frame Only*.

Notch Matrix:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/i.../2005/12/3.pnghttp://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/i.../2005/12/4.png

Standard MPEG Matrix:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/i.../2005/12/5.pnghttp://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/i.../2005/12/6.png

I think the benefits of the Notch don't need an explanation ;)
This is perfect for HD use, standard broadcast resolutions, or MPEG-2 video archival.

-kwag

1) Perhaps because industry are simply not ready for that ... IMO good H264 encoder is the best in all situation but it's true for low quantizer differencies between H264 and MPEG2 are small.

2) For very high bitrate you can use lossless mode for H264. Industry use 50 Mbps stream. H264 LossLess mode done 25 Mbps for this stream ... IMO H264 lossless mode is better than MPEG2 lossy mode ...

3) I will forget : initial source is 1280*720 H264 at only 5 Mbps ... and make with the very crap QT7 AVC H264 encoder ... :wink:


good signature, isn't it ... :wink:


all the MPEG2 encoder make bad job for the complete source.

There's no way we can have a different oppinian than yours, right?
Cheers

He is french, you know... :lol:

:twisted:

In fact MPEG2 is certainely a very good codec in most case:
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Download/MPEG2-HQ5.m2v
Certainely a good choice for HD-DVD/BR for example.

But you can't compare advanved codec like H264 (inloop, variable DCT, CABAC, wpred, multireference frame ...) and very simple codec like MPEG2. Algorithme efficiency is simply better for H264 and by far.

Speak about that with developpeur (H264 dev and MPEG2 dev too) if you want ... :wink:
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96145

and test yourself good AVC encoder like x264. You speak about codec that you don't have test ... :roll:

and finally between LossLess at 25 Mbps and Lossy at 50 Mbps there are no possible discution ... that is a fact ...

I rest my case...

:lol:

I won't rest my case ;)
Because Ogg Theora beats the crap out of any H264 CODEC, and that's a fact :mrgreen:

Edit: That WAS a fact, a long time ago :!:
As I was plain wrong, and the latest X.264 CODEC beats the crap out of Ogg Theora

Edit: On low bitrates, that is. I'm sure H264 target is more geared at HDTV and higher resolutions, but as to 720x480 resolution, theora performs better than H264 at much lower bitrates.

Edit: Again, Theora is way behing X.264, even on lower bitrates.

-kwag

@Sagittaire,

Could you please provide a sample of your file "lossless.m2v", encoded as H264 with the same file size as this :arrow: http://www.mytempdir.com/365204
That's a theora sample I encoded from your lossless.m2v, specifically at a low bitrate that starts to show degradation. Still, it's VERY watcheable.
I'd love to see the equivalent file size made with H264, just to see how watcheable it is :D

(@All, you must use Video Lan Client to watch the sample)

-kwag

No problemo ... lol

My H264 encoding
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/H264-Sagittaire.mp4

Your Theora encoding
http://multimediacom.free.fr/Video/Theora-Kwag.ogg

As you can see there are no possible comparison between H264 and Ogg Theora.

Ogg Theora is developpement to OneTech VP3. The current developpement for OneTech is VP7. H264 (Ateme HP and x264 HP) is very better than VP7. I think that MPEG4 ASP (XviD or DivX) is better than Ogg Theora.

At this time x264 is simply the best codec in the world in metric test ... 8)

I can't play your file :!:
Not in Quicktime (7) or even on VLC :!:
What CODEC did you use :?:
Apple's H.264 or the free X.264 :?:

-kwag

Play well with:
Nero Showtime
VLC 0.8.2
Direct Show Player like MPC with ffdshow filter for example

H264 description:
QTAVC is a very crap H264 encoder. Apple use Baseline Profil with no-adaptative bframe support. x264 or Ateme encoder are very better than QTAVC. I use x264 High Profil with the most advanced possible setting ...

Karl, be carrefull that x264 has been enhanced a lot recently, so use the last one if you want to try.
The two samples plays correctly in VLC 0.8.4 also. And what I don't understand is that the theora one can't be considered as good in any way :?
Perhaps I did not understand what Karl intented to say.

I can't play Sagittaire's sample in VLC 0.8.4.a, which is the latest :roll:
I'm going to download it again.

-kwag

As you can see with this (little) example there are no possible comparison between H264 and the other codec.

At this time H264 is able to encode Ultra High Quality 1080p resolution with only DVD hardware support.

At this time H264 is able to encode High Quality 480/576p resolution with only CD hardware support.

OMG
:jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
I take back all I said about Theora :!:
H.264 is WAY ahead of it.

You're right Phil, H.264 has been enhanced by a zillion, from the last time I tested.

@Sagittaire,

No contest :)
This CODEC is really beyond Theora :!:
I guess the Ogg Theora team has a lot of work to do, if they ever want to catch up to this thing :cool:

-kwag

Has anyone tried X.264 on one of the new iPods :?:
Or did Apple screw it up just to enable playback of their own H.264 version :?:

-kwag

IPod use H264 BP@L1.3. You can use x264 with these particular profil and level for IPod.

MeGui can encode directly with this profil ...

... and that's it.
No problem in recognizing someone else was right.
It doesn't mind if the codec is being supported in other forums.
If it does work better, why not say it.

I'm not remarking this because it surprises me.
I'm used to it. That's one of the reasons I love this forum.
Of course, there are a lot of other reasons: knowledge of people in here, generousity, willing to help,...

I guess that when it become a more generalized format, accepted by more (any?) SAP, we will dedicate more post to this codec.

Well ... now I will try to convince you that Libavcodec is best MPEG2 encoder for low bitrate and by very far ... :idea:

A small MPEG2 challenge perhaps ... ???

- Quality
- Target Bitrate
- vbv specification respect

I have a very good source for that ... !!!

As long as libavcodec has the rate control problem, it's useless doing any comparisons.

Try to use again the word "metrics", just to see how long your message last on the toppic.

Sagittaire says that libavcodec is the best codec for, and I quote, "low bitrate" encodes.
For me, low bitrate is something near 1000Kb/s or sometimes even below that.
I can't see how huge bitrate spikes can be avoided here.
Unless the encoding is done with libavcodec and the ratecontrol is taken care by another lib.
But if ratecontrol is fixed then I will surely admit that libavcodec might be one of the very best codecs out there.
Hell, I'd still be using it if it was not because of that ;-).
Cheers

Duh, can you elaborate on that Phil?