Yes. I'm pissed of discussions about quality of encoder based on metrics and I will remove all messages that has this as toppic. If there is a problem with that, just tell me and I quit all my moderator activities.

No problem with discussions based on samples visually compared like just above concerning therora/x264.

Well, yes i have a problem with all those arbitrary and despotic actions.
All people has right to give its opinion, while that doesn't be an ofense.
If you don't want such discussions, simply, don't answer (neither read) those topics.

Nope. I think we've experimented in this forum with avcodec far more than you ever will :!:
And we already have concrete conclussion, that avcodec is a piece of trash, as far as compliancy.
I may very well be the best encoder, as far as "quality" produced on low bitrates compared to other commercial MPEG-1/2 encoders, but it's useless for SAP and other applications because compliancy issues.

-kwag

Of course Pro. And all people that doen't want to be moderator on a board that lets stupidy be wrotten can quit. Isn't it ?

I already told that not reading something is not like not having them be written. I won't associate my "image" to such ********* that's all. Everything has been said about stupidity of metrics, and no word needs to be added.
Metrics can be easily fooled (for instance, all TV broadcasters will tell you the volume of adds is not louder than the remainder of the programms - and the metrics show they are right -, but everyone jumps on his remote to lower the volume as soon as advertising start).

If people want to be stupid, they can be such elsewhere (doom9 for instance). There I won't read them or if I do, I won't be upsetted if they write something I don't want to be associated with.

1) Speak about metric with video codec dev and not with me. They can speak about capacity and limit of metric very better than me (or you). For example Metric can detect easyest that H264 will be visually very better than Ogg Theora in previous post (useless for me to see the encoding ... I see difference for OPSNR ... but it's certainely only a coincidence ... lol). But it's not the subject here : quality can be for me pure subjective visual quality too ... :twisted:

2) MPEG2 challenge could be:
- Visual quality between q6 and q8 encoding (low bitrate like KDVD profil)
- Target bitrate for encoder
- DVD Compliance Verification


hmmm ... perhaps not .... personnaly I used libavcodec to make MPEG4 before MPEG2 implementation. I use actually Libavcodec for HD encoding (low anchor for HD video codec comparison). But I encode not often in MPEG2 and I can still be convinced ... :?:

I'm sure it can. I do not tell you to not enter into any quality related toppics, but not if this is to speak about metrics again.

Ateme dev like Bobololo, Babayaga or Manao (best video codec in the world for metric and for eyes too) are certainely not stupid people ... and they use metric to compare codec quality ... ???

I think that Zhou Wang, Ligang Lu and Alan C. Bovik are not stupid people too
http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~zwang/files/papers/vssim.pdf

Syskin, Skal (XviD Dev), Bobololo, Babayaga, Manao (Nero dev), pengvado (x264 dev), karl_lillevold (RV10 dev), One2Tech (VPX dev), sh0dan (AviSynth Developer), hank315 (HC encoder) ... and more and more ... are stupid people ... ???

Excuse me you are right. They are not stupids. Go continue read them. Elsewhere. Far. Thanks.

You like to mix up things right?
Noone said that!

Its clear that H264 based ones at the moment are the hottest codecs around, no doubt at all. And you showed some people in here the "visual" quality via samples where those people had'nt make their experiences on THAT codec till now as they made their encodings using mpeg2 for DVD SAP purposes.

Now again you took your 1928374746th attempt to say that Mencoder or libavcodec in general for mpeg2 is the "best" (a word you like in general) which resulted in a 193736347th "Please not again" from here. That sadly forced you to mix up the subject by saying that we could take great developers for fools (see your quote above). THAT "statement" where you do count names had no! relation to the words being said in here about the mpeg2 compilancy-capabilities in total of libavodec!


BTW: At any serious board I know, the words "whats the best" and also "being the best" are not accepted at all.

Then why not little challenge ... ???

1) Visual quality between q6 and q8 encoding (low bitrate like KDVD profil)
2) Target bitrate for encoder
3) DVD Compliance Verification

I have a very good source for test that (extra high quality source, extra low compressibility, extra high difficulty for RC, extra high difficulty for VBV ... etc etc etc)

Ok, ok. Here, read this:

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16078

There.

Next topic.

and ... ???

I not speak about metric for next challenge:

1) Visual quality between q6 and q8 encoding (low bitrate like KDVD profil)
2) Target bitrate for encoder
3) DVD Compliance Verification

What part of "AVCODEC IS NOT TRULY DVD COMPLIANT" don't you understand :?:

-kwag

Well I don't speak about only Libavcodec : if LAVC MPEG2 don't produce compliant stream ... we not include LAVC stream in Challenge. There are other MPEG2 encoder like CCE, ProCoder, Mainconcept, HCEnc ... etc etc etc

Challenge will be open only for MPEG2 encoder with certified compliant stream.

But little question : how do you check MPEG2 DVD compliant stream ... ???

I remember I did intensive testing with mencoder a year and a half ago. I had problems with bitrate spikes when encoding for KDVD (with maxbitrate 5000 I got spikes around 11000, that my SAP didn't play).
I tried every moded version I came across, but still the same.
Even those streams that didn't show spikes, also didn't play well.
I kept testing it even after mencoder forum went on hold.
But finally I dropped it. I want my KDVD to be played in my SAP, and if possible, with the garantee they'll be playable in my future SAP. So mencoder wasn't useful for my purpose.

I don't mind to test anything claimed to be good, to improve further my encodings. But I want to play them later on a SAP, not just my PC. If not, I just find it a toy, but not a tool for backing up my DVDs. Well, just my opinion.

If nothing changed in mencoder (or lavc) related to MPEG2 or ratecontrol, if mencoder keeps noncompliant, I don't see the point to test it again. Just to play again, not serious encoding. (I don't mind to play, I enjoyed it a lot when playing with command-line and so... but keeping in mind it won't be useful to be played on SAP).

Again, just a personal opinion.

you can post little example with source ... :?:

193736347th + 1 :lol:

10 people on one hand that knows about mencoder, you on the other hand with this "No need to discuss with me... I'm always right" signature. Grow up (anyone)

BTW, this toppic is not the one of the current thread.

I quote myself ... it's open challenge ... there are other MPEG2 encoder.

and I repeat my question : you say encoder X or encoder Y don't produce MPEG2 DVD compliant stream but how do you check MPEG2 DVD compliant stream ... ???

When you put your avcodec MPEG file (authored on DVD) on some SAP, and it bombs, chokes, skips and screams :lol:

-kwag

yes ... not really practical and easy for quick check ... :wink:

No, I cannot. The tests were useless, they didn't play well in my (any?) SAP. I usually try to keep as less trash in my hard drive as I can. So I deleted them.
But I saw bitrate spikes in Bitrate Viewer, and maybe more important, my SAP didn't play well. Don't know if it was related to spikes, or VBV under/overflows, but it didn't work.
But even without example, you may trust me... will you?. It didn't play in my SAP. And I was really interested in it to work... but it didn't.

Well, it is very important (to me it's esential) that stream can be played in almost any SAP. I can't figure other way to see if it will be playable... but playing it. What other method do you suggest?.

well it's just question ...

But DivXNetwork propose DMFCheck.exe for new .divx container. DMFCheck check all the video stream, audio stream, menu xml, sub xsub in .divx files and return info for DivX Ultra Profil compliance. Perhaps equivalent DVDCheck.exe exist for m2v files or vob+ifo structure ... ???

Do I see that right? You are even not really shure about the compilancy as you dont know how to "really" proof if a given mpeg2 stream is compilant under all circumstancies? But you forced your statement in that "other" tread obout that mencoder mpeg2 outputs are full mpeg2@main profile DVD SAP compilant.

I did post in that thread that only many tests using diff. SAPs can be seen as a "proof". And thats why some few people in here do clearly say that its NOT fully compilant as they have problems while playing back them on "their" special SAP model - and these people know how to encode a mpeg2 stream for compilant DVD purposes. BTW. that problem is ALSO mentioned in the Mencoder docs as Dialhot already quoted these docs parts.

Thats why we said that the time showed that there where no Topics in forums where CCE, TmpgEnc, MCE etc. did fail - well at least i dont know any topic on these. But Mencoder.exe did bring some topics up based on exactly "that" issue.
EVEN the HCenc brought a topic up where a person on the one hand had no props playing back a stream out of tmpegEnc but on HCenc.

Do encode what you want, using what you want if you do encodes for "yourself" then ist no problem.
Do let decide your eyes not maths.

But compliance problem is not eyes problem ... it's only "maths" probleme (me_range, vbv respect, max bitrate, GOP, size ...). DVD compliant chip can or can't read stream ...


In fact Mencoder seem able for my 3 SAP to encode without problem (overflow or other) but perhaps too that my 3 SAP are "overcompliancy" .

Possible that somebody shows specific example with accessible source for its SAP ... ??? I just want to try to reproduce problem ... :arrow:

Do not reduce, do cancel it : stop using mencoder ;)

Little experience from MSU for convergence between objective an subjectives test:
http://www.compression.ru/video/code...parison_en.pdf

http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/error.gif

MOS is average subjective mark
SSIM is HVS tuned metric from video quality experts group
http://www.cns.nyu.edu/~zwang/files/papers/vssim.pdf

Very interresting study. Thanks :)

I will read into it more deeply but I loved the conclusion :

May be this time is the last we hear about metrics :lol:

Well MSU will make next MPEG2 test with objective test ...

In fact problem here is not metric but confidence interval:
example: if codec A is better than codec B for 0.1 dB you can't make conclusion but if codec A is better than B for 1 dB you can say codec A is better than codec B with 99% of confidence.

Conclusion : metric are not perfect but you can use it for video quality evaluation and MSU will make it for the next MPEG2 encoder comparison ...

Here MPEG4 technology demo for the next SAP generation(Certainely H264 HP@L4 compatible)

Superman
Video MPEG4 AVC High Profil 1920*1088*23.976 1600 Kbps
Audio MPEG4 AAC High Efficiency 5.1 48 Khz 160 Kbps

XMenIII
Video MPEG4 AVC High Profil 1920*1088*23.976 1600 Kbps
Audio MPEG4 AAC High Efficiency 2.0 48 Khz 72 Kbps

Perhaps 720p movie on simple 700 Mo CDR if H264 encoder progress always like that ... lol