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deltaboy

12-31-2002 02:40 PM

KVCD: 480x480 MPEG-1 template?

hey KWAG,

you ever thought of an sVCD resolution MPEG-1 template? i wonder how this would fair. i know aspect ratio's would be tough for widescreen, but its just a thought.

i cant get over the compression of the standard 352 x 480 kVCD template, but im facinated with the crispness/sharpness of the 528 x 480 kVCDx3 template.

just looking for a compromise...

kwag	12-31-2002 02:52 PM

Re: 480 x 480 MPEG-1 template...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaboy

The best compromise for quality/resolution is 528x480(576) :wink:
The difference in quality compared to 480x480 is noticeable. At least viewed on HDTV. Not to mention that I've seen some PAL samples (528x576) and they just blow away some 720x480 DVDs that I have :bigooh:

-kwag

deltaboy

12-31-2002 02:56 PM

what if im speaking strictly for 1 CD encodes...

kwag	12-31-2002 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaboy

what if im speaking strictly for 1 CD encodes...

We're getting excelent 2 hour movies on one CD with the x3 :wink:
Take a look at what "The sum of all fears" will look on one CD at 528x480: http://www.kvcd.net/sum-test.m1v
I know this is pushing the limits, for something that should go in 2 CDs, but this quality was not available before on one CD at this resolution with prior KVCD parameters. Try viewing with PowerDVD or WinDVD. WMP :puke: big time

-kwag

deltaboy

12-31-2002 03:46 PM

wow! great sample, KWAG. but what about a lively movie, that one seemed pretty calm.

i just assumed that by decreasing the horizontal resolution, it might allow for just a bit more data, therefore, being able to increase the CQ value a bit, or what the ultimate goal is, to squeeze more time onto 1 CD.

kwag	12-31-2002 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaboy

wow! great sample, KWAG. but what about a lively movie, that one seemed pretty calm.

No way :hammer:, that movie is high action :hopline: . That is a cut out from the complete prediction sample, which is targeted for one CD. So the quality is just like that in all parts of the movie. I used MAX of 2,500Kbps so action scenes are fairly blockless.

Quote:

i just assumed that by decreasing the horizontal resolution, it might allow for just a bit more data, therefore, being able to increase the CQ value a bit, or what the ultimate goal is, to squeeze more time onto 1 CD.

I only used 2 blocks overscan. In the computer screen, it looks smaller horizontally, but when viewed on a TV it will be stretched and be flush with the edges of your TV :tup:

-kwag

deltaboy

12-31-2002 04:00 PM

do you think i can get away with a max bitrate of 2300 with the 528x480 res or am i pushing the limits even more?

ps.. how can i upload you a sample of my 480x480? it looks pretty close, but the filesize is significantly smaller.

kwag	12-31-2002 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaboy

do you think i can get away with a max bitrate of 2300 with the 528x480 res or am i pushing the limits even more?

Sure you can 8)

Quote:

ps.. how can i upload you a sample of my 480x480? it looks pretty close, but the filesize is significantly smaller.

You can E-Mail it to: kwag at kvcd dot net ( You know how to put that together :mnkypile: )

-kwag

mrj03

01-01-2003 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaboy

what if im speaking strictly for 1 CD encodes...

When I tried to open this file sum-test.m1v under WinDVD it doesn't show up under the MEDIA TYPE as an option. Do I need to D/L an update or something to view a .m1v file??

THANKS....

kwag	01-01-2003 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrj03

When I tried to open this file sum-test.m1v under WinDVD it doesn't show up under the MEDIA TYPE as an option. Do I need to D/L an update or something to view a .m1v file??

THANKS....

Just rename it to .mpg and then WinDVD will see it and play it :wink:

-kwag

gonzopdx

01-01-2003 07:00 PM

@kwag

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag

We're getting excelent 2 hour movies on one CD with the x3 :wink:
Take a look at what "The sum of all fears" will look on one CD at 528x480: http://www.kvcd.net/sum-test.m1v

I don't get how you get such high quality encodes...even at 480x352, i get chunks and gibs all around people in low-action movies.. using the x3 template, encoding mpeg2..

What am I doing wrong? What script are you using?

muaddib

01-01-2003 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzopdx

@kwag

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag

We're getting excelent 2 hour movies on one CD with the x3 :wink:
Take a look at what "The sum of all fears" will look on one CD at 528x480: http://www.kvcd.net/sum-test.m1v

It really depends on what material you have. I think that you can use x3 for a 1CD - 120min movie IF your source is 23.976fps widescreen.
If your source is a 29,97 interlaced fullscreen movie, you will not get good results trying to fit 120min in 1CD. Go for 2CDs in a situation like this, or try a lower resolution template.

SansGrip

01-01-2003 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muaddib

It really depends on what material you have. I think that you can use x3 for a 1CD - 120min movie IF your source is 23.976fps widescreen.

Especially Cinemascope. They look really good at 528x480.

Quote:

If your source is a 29,97 interlaced fullscreen movie, you will not get good results trying to fit 120min in 1CD. Go for 2CDs in a situation like this, or try a lower resolution template.

I recently encoded a couple of full-screen 29.97fps movies (both about 2h20m) and used LBR for one disc, and ConvertFPS(23.976). Looks about VCD-quality on the monitor, but I've not tried them on the TV yet.

I'd definitely need two discs for a higher resolution, though.

gonzopdx

01-01-2003 07:41 PM

You replied before I got to edit my post ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by muaddib

Obviously ;) I'm not THAT much of a noob :D I've been playing with these for a while :) And I've done TONS of optimized encodes on my own before I started using the KVCD templates :)

I get shotty results when encoding a 23.976 fps, widescreen, low-action movie. Here's an example script I'm using for a movie I'm in the process of encoding (normally there's no telecide/decimate):

Code:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\mpeg2dec.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\legalclip.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\fluxsmooth.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\blockbuster.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\decomb.dll")



mpeg2source("C:\Temp\jsb\vobs\jsb.d2v")



Telecide()

Decimate(cycle=5)



Crop(0,56,0,-59)



LegalClip()



LanczosResize(480,274)



FluxSmooth()



BlockBuster(method="dither",detail_min=1,detail_max=10,variance=.7)



LegalClip()

That's a 105 min. movie.. results are just SO SO encoding at 480x352.. still noticable artifacts.. final CQ looks to be between 50-55 (I'm currently doing my sample encodes).

SansGrip

01-01-2003 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzopdx

LanczosResize(480,274)

Try dropping down to a neutral bicubic. Lanczos maintains a lot of sharpness and isn't the best choice for this kind of thing unless you apply a bit of a blur afterwards. I'm still investigating this.

Are you encoding to 480x480? I've always noticed more artifacts (particularly on straight diagonal lines) with this resolution.

Quote:

BlockBuster(method="dither",detail_min=1,detail_ma x=10,variance=.7)

Try method="noise", see if that helps. Dither is currently experimental.

muaddib

01-01-2003 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SansGrip

Quote:

Originally Posted by muaddib

It really depends on what material you have. I think that you can use x3 for a 1CD - 120min movie IF your source is 23.976fps widescreen.

Especially Cinemascope. They look really good at 528x480.

Yep... I see that LOTR sample! 8O

Quote:

Originally Posted by SansGrip

Quote:

Originally Posted by muaddib

If your source is a 29,97 interlaced fullscreen movie, you will not get good results trying to fit 120min in 1CD. Go for 2CDs in a situation like this, or try a lower resolution template.

Exatctly! What I mean was...
If your source is a 29,97 interlaced fullscreen movie, you will not get good results trying to fit 120min in 1CD with the x3 template :wink: . Go for 2CDs in a situation like this, or try a lower resolution template.

But please, tell us about yours LBRs encodes (after you try them on the TV)...
Did you get satisfied with it?
What about the sharpness? Did it get "boring" blurred, or it was OK for watching?
What resize did you use, lanczos, bilinear or bicubic?

SansGrip

01-01-2003 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muaddib

What about the sharpness? Did it get "boring" blurred, or it was OK for watching?

They look quite soft (at least on the monitor), but that's the only way to get that much video on one disc :).

Quote:

What resize did you use, lanczos, bilinear or bicubic?

I used bilinear. I'm still playing with Lanczos and subsequent softening...

conquest10

01-01-2003 08:41 PM

why is it when i try to use Lanczos vdub says that it doesn't exist?

SansGrip

01-01-2003 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conquest10

why is it when i try to use Lanczos vdub says that it doesn't exist?

You may be using an old version of Avisynth. The latest stable release is 2.07.

gonzopdx

01-01-2003 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SansGrip

Trying this next..

Quote:

Originally Posted by SansGrip

Are you encoding to 480x480? I've always noticed more artifacts (particularly on straight diagonal lines) with this resolution.

480x352.. but I get crap all over the screen no matter what resolution I use :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SansGrip

Try method="noise", see if that helps. Dither is currently experimental.

Yeah I know dither is experimental, but from what I've read so far and from my own tests, it seems to be working out pretty well (better than noise) :) I'll try noise again but I'm not sure it's going to prevent the gibs I keep getting.

My encodes simply do not look as good as the samples that are posted, period. It appears I'm doing everything correctly and have been following the forums very closely.. no matter what I do, quality doesn't get any better.. obviously I'm not doing something right though :?:

I also have yet to do any CQ_VBR encodes of anywhere between 90-120+ minutes at anything above 11. I think the highest I've gotten is 10.3. Is that normal? My CQ's have yet to be over 60.

kwag	01-01-2003 09:57 PM

GEE!, I walk out for ~8 hours, and I feel lost 8O . Took me about an hour to get back in sync reading all new posts :roll:
We just finished watching "Sum of all fears", which I encoded last night with the x3 (528x480) on one CD, and it looked great :D ( Great movie too 8) )

-kwag

gonzopdx

01-01-2003 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag

We just finished watching "Sum of all fears", which I encoded last night with the x3 (528x480) on one CD, and it looked great :D ( Great movie too 8) )

How do you get such high quality encodes? Do you use any smoothers besides FluxSmooth? Please share! I'm bashing my head against the wall trying this and I can't seem to get any encodes that look nearly as good as your samples..

kwag	01-01-2003 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzopdx

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag

We just finished watching "Sum of all fears", which I encoded last night with the x3 (528x480) on one CD, and it looked great :D ( Great movie too 8) )

This is the .avs I used for that movie:

Code:

LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\MPEG2DEC.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\fluxsmooth.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\blockbuster.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\legalclip.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\sampler.dll")



Mpeg2Source("K:\SUM_OF_ALL_FEARS\VIDEO_TS\sum.d2v")

LegalClip()

BilinearResize(496,336,8,0,704,480)

FluxSmooth()

Blockbuster(method="noise", variance=.4, seed=1)

AddBorders(16,72,16,72)

LegalClip()



#Sampler(length=24)

## MPEG size = ((Total frames/MovieTimeInMinutes)/24) * MPEG sample file size ##

I even put a very low .4 "noise" in there just for the hell of it 8)
The complete movie looks just like the sample I posted previously. The bit rates were MIN=300 and MAX=2,500 using CQ mode, BETA-1 matrix, and a CQ value of 63.6

-kwag

gonzopdx

01-01-2003 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag

The complete movie looks just like the sample I posted previously. The bit rates were MIN=300 and MAX=2,500 using CQ mode, BETA-1 matrix, and a CQ value of 63.6

This is what I don't understand. My scripts that I've been using are almost identical and my movies look nowhere near as good as yours do.

I have a 97 minute movie I'm trying to encode @ 528x480.. very low action (Jay & Silent Bob).. CQ of 50 is too much to fit on one CD.

I don't get it.

kwag	01-01-2003 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzopdx

Double check that you are using the KVCD matrix ( Or BETA-1 matrix ) and the GOP 1-12-2-1-24.
AviSynth 2.07.
TMPGEnc 2.59.
Latest versions of SansGrip's filters.
DVD2AVI 1.76.

I can't think of anything else :roll:

-kwag

apoc	01-02-2003 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzopdx

What format is your source ? 1.85 ? 2.35 ?
This can explain why you have to decrease CQ value

--
apoc

gonzopdx

01-02-2003 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag

Double check that you are using the KVCD matrix ( Or BETA-1 matrix ) and the GOP 1-12-2-1-24.
AviSynth 2.07.
TMPGEnc 2.59.
Latest versions of SansGrip's filters.
DVD2AVI 1.76.

Check (tried BETA-1 & Original)
Check.
Check (2.59 Plus)
Check.
Double check. :)

See? It's a mystery ;) I don't get it :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc

What format is your source ? 1.85 ? 2.35 ?

1.85..

SansGrip

01-02-2003 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzopdx

I have a 97 minute movie I'm trying to encode @ 528x480.. very low action (Jay & Silent Bob).. CQ of 50 is too much to fit on one CD.

That is weird. I just put a 16:9 95m movie on one disc with x3 and the CQ was 69.9. Post the exact script you're using and I'll take a look.

gonzopdx

01-02-2003 11:31 AM

Here it is.. exact script I used:

Code:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\mpeg2dec.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\legalclip.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\fluxsmooth.dll")

# LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\blockbuster.dll")

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\decomb.dll")



mpeg2source("C:\Temp\jsb\vobs\jsb.d2v")



Trim(0,175500)



Telecide()

Decimate(cycle=5)



# LanczosResize(480,274,2,57,716,364)



BicubicResize(512,270,0,0.6,6,58,708,364)



# LegalClip()



FluxSmooth()



# BlockBuster(method="dither",variance=.7)



LegalClip()



AddBorders(8,105,8,105)

SansGrip

01-02-2003 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzopdx

Here it is.. exact script I used

Well that script looks fine. I'm not sure why you'd have to use such a low CQ level to do a ~90m movie with that script, unless you've set something wrong in TMPGEnc.

Though I do recall some people experiencing problems with large file sizes using TMPGEnc 2.59...

gonzopdx

01-03-2003 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SansGrip

Though I do recall some people experiencing problems with large file sizes using TMPGEnc 2.59...

Which would you recommend? 2.58? 2.57? Regular/Plus? Which are you using?

SansGrip

01-03-2003 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzopdx

Which would you recommend? 2.58? 2.57? Regular/Plus? Which are you using?

I use 2.58 -- the free version -- and have never had any problems with it.

gonzopdx

01-03-2003 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SansGrip

I use 2.58 -- the free version -- and have never had any problems with it.

I had a copy of 2.58.44.152 Plus on my HD.. I installed it, did a sample clip, same source, same script...same results. CQ 50 is too big to fit on a CD.

SansGrip

01-03-2003 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzopdx

I had a copy of 2.58.44.152 Plus on my HD.. I installed it, did a sample clip, same source, same script...same results. CQ 50 is too big to fit on a CD.

Of course the CQ value will depend on the source. I just used CQ 38.9 to get a movie on one disc, but it was 2h20m long. Something still sounds wrong to me. Can you post complete (exhaustive, boring even :)) details?

Also, find the CQ value that'll give you one disc then post a clip. If you need web space, PM me and I'll give you somewhere to upload it.