KVCD: 480x480 MPEG-1 Template?

deltaboy · #1 12-31-2002, 02:40 PM

hey KWAG,

you ever thought of an sVCD resolution MPEG-1 template? i wonder how this would fair. i know aspect ratio's would be tough for widescreen, but its just a thought.

i cant get over the compression of the standard 352 x 480 kVCD template, but im facinated with the crispness/sharpness of the 528 x 480 kVCDx3 template.

just looking for a compromise...

kwag · #2 12-31-2002, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaboy

hey KWAG,

you ever thought of an sVCD resolution MPEG-1 template? i wonder how this would fair. i know aspect ratio's would be tough for widescreen, but its just a thought.

i cant get over the compression of the standard 352 x 480 kVCD template, but im facinated with the crispness/sharpness of the 528 x 480 kVCDx3 template.

just looking for a compromise...

The best compromise for quality/resolution is 528x480(576)

The difference in quality compared to 480x480 is noticeable. At least viewed on HDTV. Not to mention that I've seen some PAL samples (528x576) and they just blow away some 720x480 DVDs that I have

-kwag

deltaboy · #3 12-31-2002, 02:56 PM

what if im speaking strictly for 1 CD encodes...

kwag · #4 12-31-2002, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaboy

what if im speaking strictly for 1 CD encodes...

We're getting excelent 2 hour movies on one CD with the x3

Take a look at what "The sum of all fears" will look on one CD at 528x480: http://www.kvcd.net/sum-test.m1v
I know this is pushing the limits, for something that should go in 2 CDs, but this quality was not available before on one CD at this resolution with prior KVCD parameters. Try viewing with PowerDVD or WinDVD. WMP

big time

-kwag

deltaboy · #5 12-31-2002, 03:46 PM

wow! great sample, KWAG. but what about a lively movie, that one seemed pretty calm.

i just assumed that by decreasing the horizontal resolution, it might allow for just a bit more data, therefore, being able to increase the CQ value a bit, or what the ultimate goal is, to squeeze more time onto 1 CD.

kwag · #6 12-31-2002, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaboy

wow! great sample, KWAG. but what about a lively movie, that one seemed pretty calm.

No way

, that movie is high action

. That is a cut out from the complete prediction sample, which is targeted for one CD. So the quality is just like that in all parts of the movie. I used MAX of 2,500Kbps so action scenes are fairly blockless.

Quote:

i just assumed that by decreasing the horizontal resolution, it might allow for just a bit more data, therefore, being able to increase the CQ value a bit, or what the ultimate goal is, to squeeze more time onto 1 CD.

I only used 2 blocks overscan. In the computer screen, it looks smaller horizontally, but when viewed on a TV it will be stretched and be flush with the edges of your TV

-kwag

deltaboy · #7 12-31-2002, 04:00 PM

do you think i can get away with a max bitrate of 2300 with the 528x480 res or am i pushing the limits even more?

ps.. how can i upload you a sample of my 480x480? it looks pretty close, but the filesize is significantly smaller.

kwag · #8 12-31-2002, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaboy

do you think i can get away with a max bitrate of 2300 with the 528x480 res or am i pushing the limits even more?

Sure you can

Quote:

ps.. how can i upload you a sample of my 480x480? it looks pretty close, but the filesize is significantly smaller.

You can E-Mail it to: kwag at kvcd dot net ( You know how to put that together

)

-kwag

mrj03 · #9 01-01-2003, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag

Quote:

Originally Posted by deltaboy

what if im speaking strictly for 1 CD encodes...

We're getting excelent 2 hour movies on one CD with the x3

Take a look at what "The sum of all fears" will look on one CD at 528x480: http://www.kvcd.net/sum-test.m1v
I know this is pushing the limits, for something that should go in 2 CDs, but this quality was not available before on one CD at this resolution with prior KVCD parameters. Try viewing with PowerDVD or WinDVD. WMP

big time

-kwag

When I tried to open this file sum-test.m1v under WinDVD it doesn't show up under the MEDIA TYPE as an option. Do I need to D/L an update or something to view a .m1v file??

THANKS....

kwag · #10 01-01-2003, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrj03

When I tried to open this file sum-test.m1v under WinDVD it doesn't show up under the MEDIA TYPE as an option. Do I need to D/L an update or something to view a .m1v file??

THANKS....

Just rename it to .mpg and then WinDVD will see it and play it

-kwag

gonzopdx · #11 01-01-2003, 07:00 PM

@kwag

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag

We're getting excelent 2 hour movies on one CD with the x3

Take a look at what "The sum of all fears" will look on one CD at 528x480: http://www.kvcd.net/sum-test.m1v

I don't get how you get such high quality encodes...even at 480x352, i get chunks and gibs all around people in low-action movies.. using the x3 template, encoding mpeg2..

What am I doing wrong? What script are you using?

muaddib · #12 01-01-2003, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzopdx

@kwag

Quote:

Originally Posted by kwag

We're getting excelent 2 hour movies on one CD with the x3

Take a look at what "The sum of all fears" will look on one CD at 528x480: http://www.kvcd.net/sum-test.m1v

I don't get how you get such high quality encodes...even at 480x352, i get chunks and gibs all around people in low-action movies.. using the x3 template, encoding mpeg2..

What am I doing wrong? What script are you using?

It really depends on what material you have. I think that you can use x3 for a 1CD - 120min movie IF your source is 23.976fps widescreen.
If your source is a 29,97 interlaced fullscreen movie, you will not get good results trying to fit 120min in 1CD. Go for 2CDs in a situation like this, or try a lower resolution template.

SansGrip · #13 01-01-2003, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muaddib

It really depends on what material you have. I think that you can use x3 for a 1CD - 120min movie IF your source is 23.976fps widescreen.

Especially Cinemascope. They look really good at 528x480.

Quote:

If your source is a 29,97 interlaced fullscreen movie, you will not get good results trying to fit 120min in 1CD. Go for 2CDs in a situation like this, or try a lower resolution template.

I recently encoded a couple of full-screen 29.97fps movies (both about 2h20m) and used LBR for one disc, and ConvertFPS(23.976). Looks about VCD-quality on the monitor, but I've not tried them on the TV yet.

I'd definitely need two discs for a higher resolution, though.

gonzopdx · #14 01-01-2003, 07:41 PM

You replied before I got to edit my post

Quote:

Originally Posted by muaddib

It really depends on what material you have. I think that you can use x3 for a 1CD - 120min movie IF your source is 23.976fps widescreen.
If your source is a 29,97 interlaced fullscreen movie, you will not get good results trying to fit 120min in 1CD. Go for 2CDs in a situation like this, or try a lower resolution template.

Obviously

I'm not THAT much of a noob

I've been playing with these for a while

And I've done TONS of optimized encodes on my own before I started using the KVCD templates

I get shotty results when encoding a 23.976 fps, widescreen, low-action movie. Here's an example script I'm using for a movie I'm in the process of encoding (normally there's no telecide/decimate):

Code:

LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\mpeg2dec.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\legalclip.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\fluxsmooth.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\blockbuster.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\Program Files\Video\Plugs\decomb.dll")

mpeg2source("C:\Temp\jsb\vobs\jsb.d2v")

Telecide()
Decimate(cycle=5)

Crop(0,56,0,-59)

LegalClip()

LanczosResize(480,274)

FluxSmooth()

BlockBuster(method="dither",detail_min=1,detail_max=10,variance=.7)

LegalClip()

That's a 105 min. movie.. results are just SO SO encoding at 480x352.. still noticable artifacts.. final CQ looks to be between 50-55 (I'm currently doing my sample encodes).

SansGrip · #15 01-01-2003, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gonzopdx

LanczosResize(480,274)

Try dropping down to a neutral bicubic. Lanczos maintains a lot of sharpness and isn't the best choice for this kind of thing unless you apply a bit of a blur afterwards. I'm still investigating this.

Are you encoding to 480x480? I've always noticed more artifacts (particularly on straight diagonal lines) with this resolution.

Quote:

BlockBuster(method="dither",detail_min=1,detail_ma x=10,variance=.7)

Try method="noise", see if that helps. Dither is currently experimental.

muaddib · #16 01-01-2003, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SansGrip

Quote:

Originally Posted by muaddib

It really depends on what material you have. I think that you can use x3 for a 1CD - 120min movie IF your source is 23.976fps widescreen.

Especially Cinemascope. They look really good at 528x480.

Yep... I see that LOTR sample!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SansGrip

Quote:

Originally Posted by muaddib

If your source is a 29,97 interlaced fullscreen movie, you will not get good results trying to fit 120min in 1CD. Go for 2CDs in a situation like this, or try a lower resolution template.

I recently encoded a couple of full-screen 29.97fps movies (both about 2h20m) and used LBR for one disc, and ConvertFPS(23.976). Looks about VCD-quality on the monitor, but I've not tried them on the TV yet.

I'd definitely need two discs for a higher resolution, though.

Exatctly! What I mean was...
If your source is a 29,97 interlaced fullscreen movie, you will not get good results trying to fit 120min in 1CD with the x3 template . Go for 2CDs in a situation like this, or try a lower resolution template.

But please, tell us about yours LBRs encodes (after you try them on the TV)...
Did you get satisfied with it?
What about the sharpness? Did it get "boring" blurred, or it was OK for watching?
What resize did you use, lanczos, bilinear or bicubic?

SansGrip · #17 01-01-2003, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by muaddib

What about the sharpness? Did it get "boring" blurred, or it was OK for watching?

They look quite soft (at least on the monitor), but that's the only way to get that much video on one disc

.

Quote:

What resize did you use, lanczos, bilinear or bicubic?

I used bilinear. I'm still playing with Lanczos and subsequent softening...

conquest10 · #18 01-01-2003, 08:41 PM

why is it when i try to use Lanczos vdub says that it doesn't exist?

SansGrip · #19 01-01-2003, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conquest10

why is it when i try to use Lanczos vdub says that it doesn't exist?

You may be using an old version of Avisynth. The latest stable release is 2.07.

gonzopdx · #20 01-01-2003, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SansGrip

Try dropping down to a neutral bicubic. Lanczos maintains a lot of sharpness and isn't the best choice for this kind of thing unless you apply a bit of a blur afterwards. I'm still investigating this.

Trying this next..

Quote:

Originally Posted by SansGrip

Are you encoding to 480x480? I've always noticed more artifacts (particularly on straight diagonal lines) with this resolution.

480x352.. but I get crap all over the screen no matter what resolution I use

Quote:

Originally Posted by SansGrip

Try method="noise", see if that helps. Dither is currently experimental.

Yeah I know dither is experimental, but from what I've read so far and from my own tests, it seems to be working out pretty well (better than noise)

I'll try noise again but I'm not sure it's going to prevent the gibs I keep getting.

My encodes simply do not look as good as the samples that are posted, period. It appears I'm doing everything correctly and have been following the forums very closely.. no matter what I do, quality doesn't get any better.. obviously I'm not doing something right though

I also have yet to do any CQ_VBR encodes of anywhere between 90-120+ minutes at anything above 11. I think the highest I've gotten is 10.3. Is that normal? My CQ's have yet to be over 60.