Quantcast KVCD: MPEG-1 KVCD at 480x480 or 480x576? - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
02-27-2003, 04:01 PM
heller heller is offline
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I'm asking because I'm not able to fit a movie onto one CD with acceptable quality, so I'm going to try encoding at a lower resolution to see how it looks. (I have to use 544x576 usually because of my standalone).

I don't even know if many players (including mine) will accept these resolutions or not.

Thanks!
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  #2  
02-27-2003, 04:52 PM
ARnet_tenRA ARnet_tenRA is offline
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If you are encoding to MPEG-1 then your best bet for a lower resolution is 352x480.

Regards, Tenra
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  #3  
02-27-2003, 08:50 PM
heller heller is offline
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Why is this better than 480x480? I would think that the higher resolution of 480x480 would be superior? Also, would you use 352x576 for PAL mpeg-1?

Thanks in advance!
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  #4  
02-27-2003, 11:11 PM
ARnet_tenRA ARnet_tenRA is offline
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The higher resolution of 480x480 is nice but it is less compatible with VCDs since it is a SVCD standard. 352x480 or 352x576 is a standard DVD resolution (I think it is called 1/2D1) so it is more likely to play in your DVD player.

That said, do a test clip of 480x480 and burn it to a cd to see if your DVD player will play it. If so then you can go ahead and use it.

-Tenra
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  #5  
02-28-2003, 03:34 AM
jorel jorel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARnet_tenRA
The higher resolution of 480x480 is nice but it is less compatible with VCDs since it is a SVCD standard. 352x480 or 352x576 is a standard DVD resolution (I think it is called 1/2D1) so it is more likely to play in your DVD player.

That said, do a test clip of 480x480 and burn it to a cd to see if your DVD player will play it. If so then you can go ahead and use it.

-Tenra
yes friend "net_ten"

very good explained,like Kwag and "friendalunit" here:
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....1e9dc77c0c5eaa

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  #6  
02-28-2003, 04:57 AM
Peter1234 Peter1234 is offline
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Hi Heller,
Yes, I tried 480x480 KVCD on my AD-1500 and it works. I am now only using 480x480 NTSC because it is the only frame size other than 352x240 that doesn't have a bar along the right edge of the screen when played on the Apex AD-1500. Do you also have this problem with your AD-1500?
Peter
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  #7  
02-28-2003, 07:43 AM
dazedconfused dazedconfused is offline
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@Heller,

I have had success on my dvd player when dropping the resolution on a KVCDx3 down to 480x480. I had trouble fitting a certain 127-minute movie onto 1 disc at an "acceptable" quality @ 544x480, but using 480x480 did the trick. However, I'm now thinking it might have been better to use 352x480 with some added sharpening in my .avs script via Gripsize(resizer="lanczosresize"). I'd suggest making a sample at each of these resolutions and comparing to see which you prefer (that's what I'm gonna do next time! )

@Peter1234

Quote:
...because it is the only frame size other than 352x240 that doesn't have a bar along the right edge of the screen...
Are you getting this bar(black I assume?) on the right of your screen due to using a blocks-overscan setting that is too high, or is it just a quirk of the apex ad-1500? My Sampo 631cf player also does this "hugs-the-left-of-the-screen" thing with some resolutions if I don't adjust the blocks-overscan in my .avs scripts accordingly. Strangely, I've never noticed a black bar on the left side of my tv screen, even in tests where I used 3 blocks overscan (when even 2 blocks @ that particular resolution caused a black bar on the right). So I'm thinking that my dvd player must be forcing the picture to the left side of the screen when I use a blocks overscan setting that is too high. Just a thought.

-d&c
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  #8  
02-28-2003, 08:48 AM
heller heller is offline
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Thanks to everyone for the information!

Peter, much like our original problems getting KVCD to work with our Apex 1500's, I tried a number of test encodes and found the following interesting results for mpeg-1 encoding. For a 23.976fps avi source, 480x480 23.976 encoding left horrible artifacts all over the screen, audio skipping, jumpy video. Were you encoding at 23.976? Encoding at 480x576 25fps left occasional but very noticeable skips in the video, but the audio was okay. Haven't tried 352x480 yet--I'm concerned the lower resolution won't look very good but I'll have to try it to be sure. I haven't had the problem of the bar on the right side of the screen with any of my test encodes--only jumpy audio and video. I usually use overscan=1. Just to be clear, you're using 480x480 NTSC kvcdx3 mpeg-1?

Dazed&confused--Have you tried lanczosresize before and gotten higher quality? Also, does it slow encoding much?
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  #9  
02-28-2003, 01:47 PM
Peter1234 Peter1234 is offline
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Heller,
Yes using KVCDx3-MPEG-1-NTSCFilm.mcf template with size changed to 480x480 and frame rate changed to 29.97 fps. Aspect ratio is 4:3 525 line (NTSC). I am using VCDEasy 1.1.4 to make VCD 2.0. Maybe Nero is a problem. 352x240 also works on AD-1500. I am also using

mergechroma(blur(1.1))
mergeluma(blur(0.2))

I find that allows longer encodes at same quality. Maybe if you use these you can use 704x480 for your video. You can also use mpeg2 with the TMPGEnc SVCD matrix and GOP for 480x480 with good results. Please tell me if you are getting a bar of about 6 pixels wide on the right edge of your TV screen when you use 704x480. I stopped using 704x480 because of it. It is there even with overscan set. On TV only, not on computer. Do you see this with your AD-1500?
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  #10  
02-28-2003, 02:04 PM
Peter1234 Peter1234 is offline
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dazed&confused
The bar is not black. Hard to describe. It is often blue but changes with the content of the video. It is not there with per spec VCD and SVCD videos, but it is there with per DVD spec mpeg2 videos recorded on CDs, even with low data bit rates. It is not there with non-spec 480x480 and 352x240 videos. I assume it is an AD-1500 problem. Has me dazed&confused also.
Peter
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  #11  
02-28-2003, 02:42 PM
dazedconfused dazedconfused is offline
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heller,

FaeryDust gives a better, sharper picture than SpaceDust (with a rather large increase in encoding time but a relatively small increase in filesize). LanczosResize gives a sharper picture than BilinearResize does (with a tiny increase in encoding time and a small increase in filesize---but slightly larger than the size-difference between using FaeryDust or SpaceDust---). Personally, I think FaeryDust+BilinearResize looks much better/sharper than SpaceDust+BilinearResize or even SpaceDust+LanczosResize, but SpaceDust+Lanczos is very close, and it is what I would use if speed+quality were important to me. FaeryDust+Bilinear gives a slightly smaller filesize than SpaceDust+Lanczos though. So really, it's the best of both worlds to me, because I don't need to use any sharpening if I use FaeryDust.

When I encoded that 127-minute kvcdx3 @ 480x480, it definetly looked better/sharper to me than the sample I made @352x480 (but I didn't try sharpening with lanczos and I should have!). Depending on how much extra space you're trying to fit onto your disc at an "acceptable" quality, if you drop down the rez to 352x480, you might be able to use lanczos and still come out with a smaller filesize than if you were to use 480x480 with bilinear resize. And if 352x480_+_lanczos looks good to you and it saves you more space than 480x480, then you could use whatever space was left over for upping your CQ a bit as well. This is why I suggested you try a sample of each to see which one you prefer.

Personally, I do overnight encodes and worry more about quality than speed, so I've been using the following .avs script on my last couple encodes with excellent results:

Code:
Mpeg2Source("E:\movie.d2v")
Telecide()
Decimate()
LegalClip()
mergeluma(blur(.6))
GripCrop(width=544, height=480, overscan=2)
GripSize()
mergechroma(blur(1.58))
FaeryDust()
Convolution3D(preset="movieLQ")
DctFilter(1,1,1,1,1,.5,.5,0)
GripBorders()
LegalClip()
Using that script, I'm getting excellent compression gains and can't really see the difference (to not using mergeluma/chroma & dctfilter) on a regular 4:3 30" TV(though some people might). I suggest you check out the growing thread in the Avisynth forum about using MergeChroma/Luma to gain compression if you aren't using it already....it could really help you fit some more minutes on your 1-disc encodes at practically the same quality, and then maybe you wouldn't have to lower your resolution (although it adds to your encoding time some, especially if you leave the mergeluma_before_your resizing...check out kwag's latest "maniac filtering" script). Anyways, hope you found something helpful in all that. Happy encoding.

-d&c
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  #12  
02-28-2003, 03:36 PM
heller heller is offline
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Thanks for the info Peter and dazed&confused.

Peter, when you're encoding mpeg-1 at 480x480 29.97 fps, what is the source fps? Is it 23.976? Are you actually gaining anything compared to 544x576 at 25fps since you're using a higher framerate? In any case, it looks like I'll have to try your 480x480 suggestion to see if it works. I'll also try the 704x480 for you too and see if I get the same problem on the right side. Are you doing this resolution at 29.97 also?

Dazed, thanks for all the info on the dust filters and resizing. Looks like faerydust+bilinear is the way to go. I'm going to check out the avisynth thread and try out the chroma/luna filters. For your 480x480 encodes, what frame rate are you using, and what's your source framerate?

Thanks a lot guys!
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  #13  
02-28-2003, 04:00 PM
Peter1234 Peter1234 is offline
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Heller,
Source is 23.976 fps. I have not used 544x576 because of bar at right. Yes I am using 29.97 fps with 704x480. But, bar is there with 25 fps also. Thanks for checking this. I am beginning to think I should buy a different DVD player.
Peter
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  #14  
02-28-2003, 04:09 PM
heller heller is offline
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That's strage, Peter, because at 544x576 25fps I don't get the black bar on the right. I'll let you know how the other resolutions and fps tests work out...
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  #15  
02-28-2003, 04:41 PM
Peter1234 Peter1234 is offline
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dazed&confused,
Thanks for the info about Gripsize(resizer="lanczosresize"). I tried it and the sharpness definitely improved. Why aren't you using it in your sample script?
Peter
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  #16  
02-28-2003, 04:46 PM
Peter1234 Peter1234 is offline
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dazed&confused,
Sorry, I guess you already answered that.
Peter
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  #17  
02-28-2003, 08:42 PM
dazedconfused dazedconfused is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heller
...For your 480x480 encodes, what frame rate are you using, and what's your source framerate?
My source was a dvd shot>95%Film (but I like to IVTC in my .avs script rather than using ForceFilm in dvd2avi). Unfortunately, my dvd player will only play the 352x240 resolution templates @ a framerate of 23.97fps. For the rest of the templates, I have to up it to 29.97fps (and yes, I realize that I have decimate() in my script, but to me it's easier to just leave it there and switch to 29.97fps in TMPGEnc...I think I tried it once, and for some reason the encode was slightly quicker to leave the decimate line in my script and set TMPG to 29.97fps than it was to comment it out...this might not be the best way to do it, but the result works for me, and "if it ain't broke bad enough, then I don't fix it" ).

I suppose I could try encoding @25fps also and then speeding up the audio to match the video, but that seems like a lot of work to me, and I'm not certain I'd like the "mickey-mouse" higher-pitched audio effect that I've heard some people say occurs when you do this. I'm happy enough (beauty is subjective afterall ) with the quality I manage to get on 1 disc with the slightly modified (544x480 instead of 528x480 so my player will play it) kvcdx3 template @29.97fps (hey, it's still worlds better than standard vcd!). I don't think I've had to drop lower than CQ55 yet, and on 90-105 minute movies, I've gotten as high as CQ79, depending on the source. I've showed people a few of my better encodes and they think they're watching the dvd...this stuff sure is fun.

If the movie is right around 2 hours, then I know that I have to do a test encode @544x480 and see if it's acceptable quality (again, it'd probably look like crap to some of the folks here, but a rose is a rose I suppose...). If I have to, I drop the resolution down to 480x480. If that's still no good, then I'd try kwag's "maniac" technique and add a couple more smoothers to increase compression. I'm also going to try 352x480 with lanczos-resize next time I do a slightly longer than 2 hour movie and see how that looks as well.

Sorry to ramble guys... Happy encoding!
-d&c
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  #18  
02-28-2003, 09:09 PM
heller heller is offline
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Well guys these are my results with a 23.976fps source avi on my Apex 1500:

352x240 23.976 works fine
352x288 25fps video skipping
352x480 23.976 video skipping
352x576 25fps skipping
544x576 25fps skipping?!?! (on another source this has worked fine for me in the past!)
704x480 23.976 skipping
704x576 25fps skipping
480x480 29.97 works fine

I'm going to try 544x480 23.976 to complete the tests, but I'm completely baffled. Using another 23.976 avi in the past I could get 544x576 at 25fps to work perfectly! Peter, have you had problems like this with video skipping (looks like dropped frames) but audio staying in synch? I don't understand why this doesn't work now when it did just a couple of weeks ago.

BTW, I haven't had any of the black bar problems that you mention, sorry.
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  #19  
02-28-2003, 10:00 PM
heller heller is offline
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Well, as I expected 544x480 23.976 encode had skipping video as well (but audio was fine and in sync). This is very puzzling, since I had 544x576 25fps encoding working fine with a different 23.976 source.

In any case, like you Peter it appears that I'm stuck with 480x480 29.97 for my 23.976 source mpeg-1 kvcdx3 encodes for now...
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  #20  
02-28-2003, 10:35 PM
Peter1234 Peter1234 is offline
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Heller,
Thank you for checking for the bar at right side of screen. It must just be my DVD player. There seems to be a lot of different versions of the AD-1500. Like dazed&confused, I can only get 23.976 fps to work at the 352x240 frame size. I have mostly been using 704x480, 480x480, and 352x240 at 29.97 fps for mpeg1. Lately I have been using mpeg2 at 480x480 with 3:2 pulldown to get 23.976 with 23.976 sources. If I didn't have the bar problem I would be using 704x480 because that gives better image quality.
Peter

I haven't tried much at 25 fps since my TV is NTSC.
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