Hi sterogers,

That someone was me :roll: ...I was going to post a link, but it would just point to this page (Hint: Look at the 2nd post on this page) 8O Anyway, here's my thoughts on why I believe 352x480 gets hammered in MPEG-2.

MPEG-2 is more restrictive in standards (the "s" word again) than MPEG-1...MPEG-1 allows us to play with different resolutions without penalty because we are allowed to encode KVCD's creations as "MPEG-1 Video-CD (non-standard)" You have no such option in MPEG-2. Since MPEG-2 standard resolution is 480x480 (VCDEasy/Nero) sees 352x480 as a problem and I believe must pad the unaligned resolution during burning...Is this true? I hav'nt a clue! Just my opinion, and I am very positive the wise and knowledgeable Guru's in here can explain better than me.

The solution I have found for me is to just encode in MPEG-2 with other than 352x480 resolutions to get the full benefit of NTSC quality and file sizes...(Pal resolutions work well on my player but does not give me the "full benefit" in file size that NTSC resolutions would)

Some great ideas were brought up in this forum and might work for your player (Note this is for (NTSC) rips...)

PAL RESOLUTIONS:
Right off the bat, try making some test runs using PAL resolutions. Just load your input Video/Audio source files into the KWAG(NTSC) templates of your liking and just change the "size" to PAL resolutions on the output "Video" tab... As long as you are using the (NTSC) templates and encoding in 23.976 but just changing the resolution, it should be fine... (caution: if you use the PAL template be sure to change the "Aspect Ratio" to NTSC, "Frame Rate" to 23.976 and the "Max GOP Frames" to 48...

Wahlaah!..You have just given KWAG something to do by creating a new "KVCD-CQ-NTSC-2-PALresolution-4-players-w/problems.mcf" template to post on his home page...slacker!(heheh) :mrgreen:

FRAMERATES:
Or try encoding at 29fps or 30fps, that is another idea brought up in here. Also, darkstar808(see above) has another way to go...So many ways...too little time! I know it's very overwhelming and time consuming...but have fun and good luck! 8)

slab.....
 

Thanks Slab..

Thats a good idea... i was screwing around with the pal rez.. ill try yer idea..

tks

Also worthy of note, If you mux with bbmpeg for 352x480, try setting to svcd and turn the mux rate down to 0 and see if that helps.

darkstar808

Padding
 

I tried the 480x480 and sent it to VCDeasy and it still wanted to pad. Added 9 megs to a 63 meg test file. What gives?

OK, now we're getting somewhere. I've been fighting with these templates forever! I have an Apex 1100W that has jerky video and audio cutouts every few seconds at 23.97fps. This trick with using PAL res seems to work in my first trials. However, what does this do to the actual aspect ratio of the final KVCD?
What I'm playing with is a 353x480 capture of "The King and I" which appears to be something like maybe 2.35:1 (Cinemascope, I think) that I got off of DishNetwork. I have messed with the "video arrange" method in TMPGEnc, settled on plain old "center". I use DVD2AVI to get a d2v, then make and AVS script that does nothing but IVTC, really. I have then used VDub as frameserver to crop the black bars (heck of a time trying to get Avisynth to do it) and then encode with TMPGEnc. It looks and plays good on my 32" NTSC TV, but I'm not *certain* the aspect is right. Do I need to tweak anything *else* in TMPGEnc to make sure? Would be easier to tell with full screen, which most of my captures are, can see what's cut off, or if there is black around the edges.

So, I like what this solution seems to do, make KVCD work for me, but it seems that something else has to happen if you just change the output res from what the NTSC normally is. Or does it even matter??

Thanks,
Geoff

Pal Tests
 

Yeah the initial tests of setting the ntsc templates to Pal rez has worked for me, but with 1 drawback... The screen is alot smaller.. Is there a way to increase the size of the screen? Or (as usual) am i missing something? :)

tks

the sound studder is only for the apex and other dvd players. the sony dvp-ns300 does not have this problem because i have a apex ad-1500 and a sony dvp-ns300. i have found that raising the fps to 29.9 will fix this problem but it also makes a larger mpeg file.....Kwag in one of ur early post on this topic u said u can de mux it with tmpg and then simple mux it with a mpeg2 svcd vbr? if i can do that y do i need bbmpeg then? has anyone used tmpg to remux the mpeg with success? or will i have to use bbmpeg?

I recall mentioning exactly that. But I haven't tested a de-mux, re-mux with TMPEG, because all my DVD players play correctly every KVCD template.

kwag

Hi Yoda,

Hmmmmm.....Maybe that's the total increase you would get even for a full encode...That's a standard MPEG-2 resolution, and I do not recall ever getting a final bloated file size...

I do get a very small increase with 480x480, but it always seemed like it was because of the file structure added during the burn...say 9-15mb total. Whereas the added padding I was getting for 352x480 MPEG-2 was at times up to and over 100MB!(now that's padding!)

But anyway, I checked an old MPEG-2 480x480 encode I had saved and popped it back into VCDEasy to watch the burn process. It loaded in at 794mb and final burn was 807mb's..seems to be exceptable...

Watch the log file in VCDEasy as it burns, and check for a warning that states "will add padding on the fly--Hope that's okay with you" or something like that... That one seems to be the culprit... and you will get padding!...that's the one I was seeing for the 352x480 burns...Otherwise maybe try a longer test and hope the 9mb increase you got was just the added files total...dunno?!....
Good luck! 8)

gvarney, TKS

Glad the KWAG(NTSC) templates w/PAL resoultions are working for the APEX machines...

The aspect ratios are troublesome to me at times also. But I found fiddling with the "Centered (custom size)" can get you in the ballpark...

As always though, I'm sure there is better expertice in here that can give you the real numbers for correct adjustments....anybody?! 8)

slab

Re-encoded a full movie with KVCD using 480x480 instead of 352x480. I also still used a 3:2 pulldown. Mucho padding. Just like the 352x480. Don't remember this with old 480x480 encodes in the past. Didn't use Kwag templates on them though. Don't remember if I used 3:2 pulldown or not.

I encoded a FILM DVD (Shrek) at KVCDx2 704x480 and upped the frame rate to 29.97. This was VCD, so I couldn't do pulldown. Video jumpy.

All testing done on Apex 1500. I also have an Apex 1200. I will work on that one next if anyone needs testing done on that model.

How do you do it, I mean with the 29.9 fps? I can never get it to work. Whenever I try, lines appear around the edges of objects. I experimented using doing it with 3:2 pulldown, IVTC, etc ....... no dice.

YEAH!! Remuxing to SVCD worked out perfectly for the picture. It's excellent now. But the movie is 23... fps en when I remux it the audio gets out of sync. :cry: How can I prefend this??

P.S. What's that 3:2 pulldown?? :?:

timber:
well....i have encoded dvd rips that i tried to encode with the kvcd template 704 X 240 2CD with 23 fps and it studders on my apex but not my sony. so i just re encoded it again but with 29.9 fps and it works fine now i just burned 2 movies (4 disc) that all work great! no green lines or anything. every setting is on default for the kvcd template except the fps. i should also say i upgraded the firmware on my apex to region free and no macrovision. hope this helps....

hmmmm
 

hc1001:

Do you turn forcefilm off in DVD2AVI or in Tmpgenc to get it to 29 fps?

tks

Padding fix===>MPEG-2 480x480
 

Okay gang, I figured out the padding problem....

Ensure you encode with the "SYSTEM" tab in MPEG2 SuperVideoCD (VBR) mode. 8)

Hi slab:

Can't you just go to the "System" tab and change it to "MPEG2 SuperVideoCD (VBR)" after you select MPEG-2 in the "Video" tab. And then save the new template?

kwag

whooops!
 

YIKES!...Your right! 8O ...I could have sworn that I had tested that, and it just was'nt working right....I can't believe I was testing the same thing over and over again! :oops:.... Must be a blonde thing!!! Your way is too easy I guess!!!...That's why you get the big bucks!...:mrgreen:

~A wise man once wrote that a good working definition of "Insanity" - is when someone keeps doing the same thing over and over again.....and remains constantly surprized when the results never vary!~

Post fixed... : 8)

Got the higher resolutions working on the Apex 1500. I finally tried PAL 704x576 res. This worked on my 1500. I didn't get full screen though. I started with a 4:3 DVD source. Oh yeah, my 1500 doesn't care whether it's Joint Stereo or Dual Channel. I will tinker with this more since I don't want to screw up my ascpect ratio. I started with full screen, I want to end with full screen. File size a little larger too.

Just wanted to give some others a possible solution.

Thanks for the help, all.

Hi sterogers:

Try to keep your audio at dual channel or stereo, if you want to keep Dolby Surround. If you use joint stereo, you'll loose surround sound.

kwag

I will. I just tested with Joint Stereo because some said you had to use JS to get the higher res templates to work on my Apex.

Thanks!!!

More questions soon....I'm sure.

Is there any difference between Joint Stereo and Stereo in terms of size of final mepg file then??

I only tested with 10 minutes samples and don't remember a noticable difference. Sorry.

I give up
 

I have an apex ad-1500. I have tried most of the things in this post and others to get a 23.97fps 704x480 KVCD Plus to work in my player without problems. Unless I have missed something, nothing seems to work properly. Encoding in 704x576 gives a nice smooth frame rate, but the video is squished. Using 29fps gets rid of the audio problems, but the frame rate doesn't seem as smooth (am I imagining this?). I am doing demux/remux into SVCD.

Encoding in standard SVCD resolution, on the other hand, works fine. The reason I looked into KVCD is because I wanted higher quality, but I guess I'll just stick with XSVCD and using 3 CD-RW per movie until I get a DVD player that is compatible with the standard.

Re: I give up
 

Hi lalalala :?: 8O
I don't have the apex ad-1500 but I feel exactly the same way you do.
And you are not imagining the not so smooth frame rate using 29fps.


Well, the only way I can make it work is with SKVCD (but I prefer 480x480 CQ_VBR :D ), and I'm very (very) happy with the quality. But if you need more resolution you can get the KVCD_Plus 704x480, and just change the stream type to SVCD. Don't forget to set 3:2 pulldown or it won't work. You may also up the max bitrate to 2500, 2600 to reduce blocks on fast action scenes.

Re: I give up
 

Hi lalalala,
Then you might be intrested in SKVCD. The quality is parallel to SVCD, but you'll fit 60+ minutes per CD-R. Download the SKVCD sample and see if you like it. http://ns1.shidima.com/kwag/skvcd.mpg

Give that a try!,
-kwag

Oops, I forgot about SKVCD. I didn't try that. When you say you're happy with the quality, do you mean the original template, or with the settings changed to 480x480 CQ_VBR? Or are you referring to 480x480 CQ_VBR being used with an entirely different template?

I mean the original settings in the SKVCD template. 352x480. Take a look at the sample. I compared that sample to the same clip, encoded with TMPEG's SVCD template, and the result is better with the SKVCD template. Not to mention the space gained. Try it yourself. Make a small SVCD clip, and make the same one with the SKVCD template, and tell me your result :wink:

-kwag

test
 

You must have eagle eyes, I couldn't detect any differences between SVCD and KSVCD without zooming in. There was less blocking with KSVCD. Thank you for helping me.

EDIT: KVCD Plus works fine with 3:2 pulldown and MPEG-2 encoding. No frame rate or sound issues. I guess I had ignored it because I saw someone post that it did not work, or I had checked the box under the advanced tab rather than picking "3:2 pulldown when playback" under encode mode in the video tab. The only problem is the capacity, which is 40 mins per cd. This raises to 43 minutes with the stream under the system tab set to "super video cd", and 47 minutes when using the KVCDx2 template with the pulldown and system tab fixes.

Another edit: The capacity for 23.97 fps video on a KSVCD, with the system tab fix enabled, is 50 minutes. With the standard SVCD NTSCFilm template, it is 34 minutes.

Okay, what is this padding? I have seen that message and never really gave it much thought! 8O

Ok, I've followed this thread and still confused
 

I've followed this thread and I am still confused...
Here is what I have been doing:

1) downloaded .avi file from p2p service this is at 23.976fps
2) use virtualdub to seperate the audio from video
3) use TMPG with videocd(ntscfilm) template - Load video and audio files
4) goto settings and select source range to cut files into 2 parts (to fit on 2 cd-r)
5) after I get my 2 mpeg files I load them into VCDEasy and burn to medium under vcd 2.0 as the type.

6) PLAY IN MY APEX 1100W and I LOOSE AUDIO AND VIDEO SYNC - Looks like a Bad chinees film dub.. :)

PLEASE HELP Someone with success with a APEX 1100W, please give this new guy step-by-step of what I did wrong or what I need to change. Thanks.

When do I demux/re-mux, etc???? Confused.......

Hello Guys,
I'm also new at this and am learning as I read all of the posts. I have been experimenting with some one-cd settings and when I try to play the finished result (ONE DISC) on my portable Panasonic SL-VP50 hooked up to my 27" TV I get sound & video skips. Now when I play them in my cars' in-dash Pioneer DVD/VCD/CD player it plays perfect! What's the deal? I don't nderstand? I have to encode the .avi into two discs for it to play on my portable Panasonic. Anybody heard of this before? Kwag I also tried your test cd on my portable but it would skip like mad! I'll try it on my cars' Pioneer later today when I get home from work. I don't remember how I ran into this website, but I'm glad I did. Thanks in advance to everybody.

Jose

Sorry, just found out I brought up an OLD thread. :roll:

Nevermind man... It looks like your portable player can't handle very low bitrates. Try upping the minimum bitrate to 750 and try again!

Thanks, I'll try that tonight.

Ive tested some apexs..
 

at 352x240. with a CQ of about 65-75 2kbitmax and 650bit minimum. 112stereo audio also encoded with tmpgenc. I get no problems at all on the players I've tried.
Apex AD-660 (OFFA 1.4 Firmware)
Apex 1000
Apex 1200

I just use tmpgenc to encode normally both video and audio regularly.