Correct storage for optical medias?
 

I really needed the other thread but you closed thread and I still had doubt:

Inside the ziplock has silica gel sachet and many dvd media inside the zip silica has saturated in two weeks so this ziplock bag is not 100% airtight? With saturated silica will enter accumulate and condense moisture inside the ziplock bag or not? Is it better to store long-term optical media with or without the ziplock bag?

Good grief! If they're that important, make disk images and upload them to an offsite cloud backup service. You're obviously never going to be satisfied with any other means of guaranteeing the longevity of your physical disks.

Erich

- Again, plastics bags retain moisture.
- Sealed bags retain more moisture.
- The silica will absorb it, but the real test is how long before the silica gets saturated.

You did that experiment, 2 weeks is the outcome, so probably not a method for you to use.

I have nothing else to say, aside from giving my condolences because your storage conditions are terrible, but that's unfortunately the best available in your part of the world. You may need to look into cloud backup, SSD/flash as backup, and HDD, don't just rely on optical discs. Do all of it.

Even print out paper when possible, hard copies are always nice, too. I have a couple file cabinets for that reason. At least 1 tree has made the ultimate sacrifice for my archiving needs.

Do you recommend that I remove the discs from the ziplock bag? I don't know if the ziplock has holes but after days silica saturates may have some holes in the bag

You tired bags. Experiment failed. So yes, I'd suggest removing from bags.

A lot of folks give you grief for what they perceive as optical media insanity, but I do commend you for running an experiment on your own. That's what must be done.

If you feel that "holes" were a variable, and wish to try to experiment again, go for it. Just remember to use new or dried silica, perhaps different discs.

I don't mind helping you navigate your experiments, brainstorm/verify results. But what I won't do anymore is try to guess. That answer will remain unchanged: I don't know, I don't live in South America." Most of my research is from North America and Europe, some from Asia. Not SA, Africa, or the arctics. While the basic research remains unchanged, more details data about climates varies. As you yourself have been learning.

Again, keep up the experiments. :)

Thanks for your help Lordsmurm but please do not close the thread

1) In my experiments with the ziplock bag I placed discs and 4 sachets of blue silica gel and closed the bag after 2 weeks the silicas were saturated in pink indicating that they absorbed and moisture from inside the bag and moisture continued to enter. In the bag for a hole or opening does this mean that the best recommendation is to store without any bag for longer disc longevity?

2) did you say plastic bags retain moisture and i have several verbatim azo and mdisc discs inside spindle plastic pin inside that spindle will retain moisture?

3) you answered that my discs (DVD MDISC and Verbatim AZO DVD-R) will live 15 years in my storage conditions temperature 30-35ºC humidity 47-67% on dry days I stored the discs in common plastic bag for 1 year and inside the ziplock bag for a few months has this degraded and shortened many years of disc life?

4) Did you say that the plastic bag will retain moisture inside if I open the plastic bag with dvds inside ziplock will it also continue to retain moisture or no?

In your situation, just make backups! Sadly in your area of the world, those storage conditions will be the best you got.

I would suggest if the data really is that important to you:

1. Optical Disks (MCC/Verbatim and M-Disc)
2. SSD / HDD Backup
3. Cloud storage
4. A Single Large USB Key.
5. Hard Copy

If you have the funds, maybe run a dehumidifier in the room/place where they are stored.

We can't give you any more than the suggestions already given. If the data is really that important to you have multiple copies.

I have done all of the above, including printing out any pictures on good quality paper/ink. Though I shot many pictures on film originally so also have negatives in a file.

Please respond my questions:

1) In my experiments with the ziplock bag I placed discs and 4 sachets of blue silica gel and closed the bag after 2 weeks the silicas were saturated in pink indicating that they absorbed and moisture from inside the bag and moisture continued to enter. In the bag for a hole or opening does this mean that the best recommendation is to store without any bag for longer disc longevity?

2) did you say plastic bags retain moisture and i have several verbatim azo and mdisc discs inside spindle plastic pin inside that spindle will retain moisture?

3) you answered that my discs (DVD MDISC and Verbatim AZO DVD-R) will live 15 years in my storage conditions temperature 30-35ºC humidity 47-67% on dry days I stored the discs in common plastic bag for 1 year and inside the ziplock bag for a few months has this degraded and shortened many years of disc life?

4) Did you say that the plastic bag will retain moisture inside if I open the plastic bag with dvds inside ziplock will it also continue to retain moisture or no?

You see, I personally think a disk like M-Disc would last longer than stated here if their claims are true about the recording layer as there seems to be no separate reflective layer either. I am suspecting that the disk is more resistant to humidity, if their claims are true (talking about DVD): http://www.mdisc.com/wp-content/uplo...inaLake_vF.pdf Then you are on good ground, though nowhere near 1000 years. I doubt they would be lying about the DoD testing these, they would come down on them like a ton of bricks. I use M-Disc as an additional backup to MCC media and my intuition tells me these discs will last as long as I require, thus I am not worried.

I stored some audio and video tapes inside freezer ziplock bags for ten years, no signs of degradation, and I had silica gel. These were stored in a flat that had a leaky roof and was very humid for 4 years though most others I moved out of my house at the time. The blank disks stored under even worse conditions gave me very few problems. Look at my thread here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/medi...tim-cd-rw.html - they can survive a beating.

If you want to check for degradation, run nero discspeed and check for errors both correctable and non correctable.

Your experiment regarding bags is interesting though. I was surprised they let in more moisture and retained it. I wonder if you can get bags made of something like PTFE (teflon) which would not allow moisture in unless there is a hole.

You cannot prepare for every eventuality. Just take the backup measures we suggested and don't let worrying about these control your life. Seriously :)

For the long life disc (DVD, MDisc) is it better to store inside ordinary bags and ziplock bags or store discs outside bags?

non-hermetic bag also retains moisture?

A plastic-related observation:
Bottled water comes in plastic bottles. Over tine a bottle will start to "shrink" as the content very slowly "leak" out through the plastic. The leakage is as water vapor, a gas not unlike air, but different molecular size.

Lesson to take away: Do not count on thin plastic to be absolutely air or water vapor tight over the long term.

1) Milleniatta posted this pdf with DVD MDisc longevity testing and estimation is this information true or false? they say that MDisc DVDMdisc in 50% RH 25ºC has a life of 1332 years and 70% RH 40ºC has a life of 53 years is this information lying?

2)For the long life disc (DVD, MDisc) is it better to store inside ordinary bags and ziplock bags or store discs outside bags?

3) non-hermetic bag also retains moisture?

I don't like how the question is proposed. Not everything is true/false or truth/lie. The world is more complicated than such simple/simpleton binarism. Shades of gray, omission, cherry-picking.

I find the entire "store DVDs in sandwich bags" to be ridiculous, and I no longer have the patience to be party to such discussions. It was unusual, interesting even, but the moment has passed.

At the rate the questions have gone ... for 6 years now ... let that sink in, SIX YEARS ... the discs are either already failed, halfway through the lifecycle, or ultimately will be fine. We just don't know, as most of us keep discs indoors, either temperature-controlled (USA), or in more hospital climates (Canada/Europe). Putting discs in baggies at this date is apropos to the cliche "close the barn door after the cows/horses have escaped".

For the long life disc (DVD, MDisc) is it better to store inside ordinary bags and ziplock bags or store discs outside bags?

non-hermetic bag also retains moisture?

We still have a bunch of AOL disks hanging in the fruit trees to keep out the birds that seem to be holding up fairly well. :)

Silica gel is a component used to absorb moisture and preserve optical discs but if I do not own silica gel what are the other options that absorb moisture in the long term and conserve discs? will i put inside the cardboard box where are the discs

FYI, gamey's back posting here because he's been banned once again at videohelp.

Pleeeeeze don't ruin for the rest of us...oh, and get the beers a chillin'.

Silica is merely 1 compound that has moisture/water absorption (hygroscopy) properties. There are others. Silica is basically fine or powdered quartz. Quartz is plentiful, occurs in nature. It's inorganic, essentially a simple compound of oxygen and silicon.

Cardboard is an organic, essentially a tree, and has absorption properties as well.

Things like rice and some salts also absorb, but I'm not sure I'd dunk my DVDs in Uncle Ben's.

You must understand that absorption is not unlimited, and hits peak absorption at some point. You cannot throw a single box of rice into a lake, and expect it to vacuum up all the water. All you'll end up with is a box of soggy rice floating away. In terms of DVDs, you'll have soggy whatever in with the discs. At that point, the DVDs will begin to absorb, as the silica/whatever is too saturated to take on more moisture. So when you live in a rain forest, outdoors, you'll be overrun with moisture faster than you can absorb.

I don't really mind when new questions are asked. Some truly are "outside the box", and merit discussions and response. It's only when we fall into the repetition rabbit hole that is gets irritating.

Does A4 paper absorb moisture for some time? protecting the discs inside the box? inside the cardboard box cases of the optical discs and some sheets of A4 paper and closed box


i don't live in the woods

If you do not have any, buy some. It is not costly.
https://www.amazon.com/Dry-Desiccant.../dp/B00J0JB6KK
is but one of many potential sources. But I don't know what is convenient for you.

The following provides some information on its use and capabilities for museum-like applications, which might have some validity for CD/DVD/BD storage. However, the information is somewhat technical. Don't expect us to interpret it for you. You will have to determine to what extent it applies to you specific situation. The issue of course is how to maintain the RH in the 40-60% range

https://cool.conservation-us.org/waa.../wn23-206.html

https://www.google.com/search?q=sili...Zp0oQfM:&vet=1

Come on, I've been on to you for years...you're really gamey in disguise right!? :P

If I don't get back here before then, Happy New Year to everyone! :congrats:

LS...”outside the box”
Me...”what color is the box?”
Have a great and safe New Year, everyone!

Kelly Bundy: "the color bleen, a cross between blue and green". :laugh:

Hi

I haven't had time to look back through the entirety of this thread, (there does seem to be a lot of it), and maybe someone has suggested this before.

Have you considered / tried / investigated having your optical discs vacuum packed ? You could even throw in a couple of silica gel sachets for good measure.

Mike

Interesting. :congrats:

To the extent there is air (or other gas) inside the disc, the external vacuum could create enough pressure to open a glue seam, at least enough to vent, and that could allow air/and other vapors to enter over time reducing life.

Pop a couple discs in a bell jar and pull a vacuum, see what happens.

Or maybe try one of those "Food Saver" machines COSTCO sells. Of course one would have to break the package open to use the disc, but it might work for archiving.

But the OP may not have access to such a device.

I find conversation like this quite fascinating. It's why I tolerate the seeming insane question. We've gotten many nuggets of interesting information from some of our OP's threads.

Arrghhh...I hate posting to a gamey thread, but this is interesting. A vacuum sealed bag isn't completely air impermeable as bagged foods in the freezer can still develop frost on the surface and dry out. Also, the infamous Flexplay DVD discs in which the dye was designed to deteriorate 48 hours after the discs were exposed to air, had an estimated one year lifespan in the sealed bag.

"A Flexplay disc is shipped in a vacuum-sealed package. There is a clear dye inside the disc, contained within the bonding resin of the disc, which reacts with oxygen. When the seal is broken on the vacuum-packed disc, the layer changes from clear to black in about 48 hours, rendering the disc unplayable. If unopened, the shelf life of the sealed package is said to be "about a year". The DVD plastic also has a red dye in it, which prevents penetration of the disc by blue lasers, which would go straight through the oxygen-reactive dye."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexplay

Also, FoodSaver bags have a diamond pattern on the inside to facilitate drawing as much air out of the bag as possible. I sealed some magazines in them and when I opened them, there was a faint impression of the pattern on the back and front.

Back in the day, I worked in a plant where we made fiberglass casting tape (as in for stabilizing set broken bones). If you've had a cast in the last 30 years it was probably similar. The resin used was a moisture curing urethane which would start to cure immediately if exposed to normal, ambient air. The processing was done in special rooms where the RH was kept very low.

The finished rolls were packaged in a foil laminate pouch which consisted of at least 3 layers, the most critical being the aluminum foil in the middle (the actual moisture barrier) which was very thin. There was an outer polymer layer that was primarily to protect the foil and to provide a substrate for graphics, etc. We used various outer layers. I believe nylon was one option even though it by itself is a terrible moisture barrier. Inside the foil was a layer of heat sealable polymer, generally a low density polyethylene. I think we shot a spurt of dry nitrogen into the pouch just before it was sealed. Desiccants would not have helped since the resin was already it's own stronger desiccant.

The shelf life of the product was at least a few years but not forever. I recently threw out some sample rolls I'd kept from some experiments 30 years ago. Some were just a bit soft in places, but none were usable.

So if you're looking for about the best moisture proof package, a foil laminate pouch would be an option if you can find one. They are quite expensive and typically custom made to a purpose/product. You'd also need a heat sealer to seal the discs in. Of course the pouches would be single use only so this is most likely an archive only option.

I believe there has been quite a bit of progress in creating all polymer moisture barrier films, typically either co-polymers or multi-polymer laminates but I don't think they ever work as well as foil. The films used for "Food Saver" vacuum packaging might well be co-polymers, I don't know. That may be the most practical solution. I'd be skeptical of adding a desiccant since they might not be chemically inert. But that might still be the best option if you are in a humid environment. Better if you could do it in Minnesota in the winter when the air is already bone dry :wink2:

Not that it directly applies to optical storage, but but consider two things:

1. How quickly helium leaks from a conventional balloon, but does not leak as fast from the metalized balloons.

2. How plastic bottled water bottles tends to "shrink" over time. That is loss of content to the surrounding atmosphere.

The good news is that the "Food Saver" packaged frozen foods do last a lot longer before freezer burn compared to standard store packaging. What it does is delay the inevitable.

We had a discussion of this on another of gamey's endless threads. Almost all plastics are air and moisture permeable to some degree at a molecular level. This article Food Packaging Permeability Behaviour: A Report is way, way above my head but I can understand the introduction:

So maybe if gamey puts his discs in a glass or metal container, draws a complete vacuum, then melts or welds the container shut, there's a chance that air and moisture won't have effect. However I just thought of "but" factor. Any non-inert particles, even at molecular level could potentially attack the discs so the creation of the container would have to be done in a NASA+ grade cleanroom. :screwy:

I just had a thought: If you dunk the discs in water, and those then immune to moisture? :laugh:

City water often contains chlorine...:yikes:

There is a story, true it seems, of a 20 year old non-refrigerated hamburger from MacDonalds that looks absolutely fresh.
If there is a way to write data to whatever the heck is actually sittin' tween those buns, we might have a breakthrough.

I got it! Use natron! Keeps things mummy fresh for thousands of years!

I hate gamey's threads, but it's so much fun when he's not around! :rolleyes:

:hmm:I forget what kids show this is from, but one of the characters asked "If I'm in the water, can I get any wetter?" Wow, the simplicity and complexity of the question has kept me pondering ever since!:congrats: