Panasonic DMR-ES10 review, with proc amps
 

Hi,
Been a while since I've posted here, hope you're all well.

Currently my setup includes the DMR-ES10 in passthrough for its monster TBC. The most rock-solid line correction and frame sync I've had the pleasure of using. I've tested the model thoroughly and there is just one downside, in that it does not capture the full luminance range. Basically, it 'cooks' the video.

Scope Comparison
Here are 3 waveforms for comparing the levels each device has captured. No adjustments have been made whatsoever.
PAL video from JVC HR-S9600EU.

JVC DR-M10
Attachment 5766
Accurate. Captures full range which can be pulled down to restore detail.

ADVC-110
Attachment 5767
Accurate. Near identical to DR-M10.

DMR-ES10 > ADVC-110
Attachment 5768
Obviously clipped. Because the signal is already digitized within the ES10, it is impossible for the ADVC (or any device) to restore since that information is already gone.

Solution
To pull levels into a safe range before they reach the ES10. Before I continue, let me say that I have never owned or used a dedicated proc amp. The closest thing I own is an AVT-8710, which does include a proc amp, but as a frame sync it renders the ES10 useless because the signal is already locked and video errors permanently embedded.

So keeping in mind my limited knowledge on them, what dedicated proc amps can pass a signal that the ES10 would still be able to stabilize? I don't know if there was ever a wide selection for PAL, but certainly not these days. I recall reading that the Elite BVP-4 is PAL compatible (correct?), but would prefer a simpler unit like the SignVideo PA-100, something with luminance metering. Perhaps some of the old Vidicraft models?

If anyone's willing to do me a favour and place their proc amp before their ES10, and post the results, I'd greatly appreciate it. Really hoping I get some advice on how to resolve this issue.

PS:
Please no opinions on the DV format if it caught your eye. I think we can all agree that unless video is correctly timed, stabilized and levels adjusted (among others), capture format is the least of the problems.

First test glitch was placing the AVT before the ES10 in circuit instead of after it. Second factor is using an analog to DV method (not recommended anyway) that offers no control over input levels, which even on the JVC are too high. Everyone has known for a long time that the AVT raises gamma and brights and requires adjustment before capture. The test illustrates why the hookup used is seldom recommended for analog capture.

I don't always have to use a proc amp, but when I did use my PA-100 it was placed after the ES10 and metered a second time with VirtualDub's capture histogram. Since most DV cards have no similar feature, and since I gave up on VHS to DV years ago (your posted test showing one of many reasons why), I wouldn't have anything to post that I didn't discard more than 10 years ago. I have a ton of VHS captures using the AVT and various pass-thru units, but they are all lossless and adjusted for correct levels during capture with either a PA-100 or VirtualDub's hook-in to the capture driver's level controls.

In this case a proc amp is your best choice. Or use the proc amp on the AVT which I used to do a long while back, but I don't know a way to monitor the input with a Canopus card. The assumptions being made are that VHS and DV use the same color system, interpolation matrices, and IRE levels, but problems with those assumptions have been documented for a long time. Even analog cards will give different results, and so will different players.

It's a bad idea to place an external frame TBC in line preceding a line-level tbc. A line tbc always comes first.

More tests and details with various pass-thru devices: http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...hat-do-you-use

Jarvis
To test but take the ADVC110 the color bar

You've Sony Vegas, which version?

Here is an example image
... TBC1000 ---> Datavideo DAC 7

Tomorrow Sunday I get the ES10 from the camp
and try it once with the TBC-E, see picture

Sanlyn is right ... in front of the ES10, the level should be adjusted okay.

At the end of sanlyn's link, I posted images that show the same issue you noted, albeit with the NTSC DMR-ES15 rather than ES10 PAL.

I agree that the way to correct this would be a Proc Amp without frame sync functionality.

Sanlyn,

As above, please do not derail my thread by focusing on DV as usual. I am not denying the format has some drawbacks but it is largely irrelevant here. Neither is it the only method I use.

DMR-ES10 > AVT-8710 > ADVC-110
Attachment 5771
Not a test glitch. It speaks for itself. The AVT attempts to correct the exposure but cannot restore clipped values.
Note: Same frame as previous waveforms, of an overexposed scene for the purpose of more evident clipping.

Exactly the point I was making...

To provide a clearer explanation -
For all intents and purposes, the DMR-ES10 is the line TBC, the frame sync (a function of external/full TBC) and the capture device all in one. The levels the ADVC receives from it have already been internally clipped by the ES10. At that point, any proc amp you use after it is no better at recovering lost luma detail than editing software. You can't recover what isn't there anymore. The best you can do is just prevent further clipping by whatever you feed the signal to by adjusting levels into a safe range.

For devices that accept the full range of levels however (ie. superwhite/overshoot), such as the DR-M10 or ADVC (direct), the information is able to be recovered through hardware or software means. Like so -

ADVC - Unaltered
Attachment 5772

ADVC - Levels adjusted to safe range, highlights recovered.
Attachment 5773

ES10 > ADVC - Levels adjusted, visible loss in highlights.
Attachment 5774

Note: Not reflective of proper image correction. The levels have simply been pulled into 16-235 and then expanded to 0-255 as a TV would display. Shows the maximum amount of detail recovery possible here.

So now back to the question -
Can anyone please recommend a solution that protects video levels before they reach the ES10, and sends a signal the ES10's TBC is able to access?

Pretty much this.

Sony Vegas Pro 13. Also thank you for the message and advice I've received from you. If you have any more tests to provide I'd be happy to see them.

Apologies for the 3rd consecutive post if it annoys anyone. I'm using this thread for the purpose of documenting also, a bit more readable not merging posts.

Something of interest I'd like to mention -
There are later Panasonic DVD recorders that also include a TBC, albeit a less powerful one than ES10. The main advantage they have is the ability to output via HDMI, as well as preserve the full luminance range. I do also own a Panasonic DMR-EX77 (HDMI) that sadly does not include TBC, however I have captured from it via a cheap HDMI-splitter that defeats the copy protection. This also negates macrovision on analog sources (I have proof), as the recorder will simply say "copy-protected signal was detected" but displays the video cleanly. Good alternative for those needing full-frame TBCs to capture commercial tapes.

I have yet to try one of these TBC-equipped HDMI models, but there are a few including DMR-EH65 and EH595. This method is well documented over on the Gleitz forums (German Doom9) that Goldwingfahrer is a part of. Basically it is the most modern, ideal way of capturing as it digitizes the analog signal only once, stabilizing the video and preserving the levels correctly, and feeding the clean digital output to any modern card with HDMI input. 576i/480i into lossless or whatever format you choose. It is no more difficult than capturing a regular digital source. I don't personally know how effective its TBC is, but its on my list to find out.

You can think of the HDMI method as a modern hobbyist equivalent to the old Pro TBCs with SDI-out. Same idea.

I bold-underlined one part here. Has someone tested these recorders with over-exposed tapes to ensure they don't clip like we have found with other Panasonic models?

For a while in my chats with premiumcapture it seemed as though his DMR-EH59 wasn't causing any clipping with the tapes he tried, but then he posted this.

Skiller (from German Doom9) mentioned here that all of the DMR-EH models use the same ADC, so in that case it would seem they all have this issue if the DMR-EH59 does.

Yes good question. I've read quite a bit on them at Gleitz but a bit difficult sometimes since I rely on Google Translate.

Based on what premiumcapture said though that is worrisome. I was thinking it could be possible, since even my DMR-EX77 is prone to the contrast problem too if I recall.

I also remember reading about some JVC HDMI DVD recorders with TBC, know anything about those?
I own the old JVC DR-M10 and DR-M100, neither have TBC although do soften the image on input. Their chroma NR is only active on recording/encoding I believe. They are stellar at reading levels though, which I imagine would be the same on the later HDMI models.

Anyway, a solution to the problem would be well worth it for the Panasonic models, I agree with premiumcapture they are better than any VCR TBCs I've used and frame sync is as good as my Datavideo (which is excellent). Just irons out analog sources with ease.

But here are already talking about small children German;-)

Young people speak in English, we old farts had at school only the 3 national languages [Switzerland] German, French and Italian.
Of course, even Latin
mea culpa.....

Small test.
Internal color bars from the ADVC 110 via S-Video ----> ES10 Front AV3
ES10 from Scart / Peritel ------> Datavideo DAC-7 ---- SDI-out map at Blackmagic Studio.
Enclosed 3 photos
Bin satisfied .... ES10 truncates anything.
I have Sony Vegas Pro 13 on the 2.PC
In Vegas, I can not adjust the level before capturing.
That's only in the Canopus Edius with NX card.

supplement
Sanlyn wrote above for ADVC110 ... that was a "Canopus card"
The ADVC110 is like the ADVC300 or ADVC1000 just a "box"

Sony Vegas shows it in studio standard at 16-235 [240]

My Monitor EIZO SX but I have adjusted to 0 to 255 [Image A + B]

I do not know any TV can display 0 to 16.

Possibly, a Vivanco bring help before ES10

Feeder------vivanco----ES10

Warning ... only a few have Vivanco S-Video
Most are only in CVBS

Thanks for the effort Goldwingfahrer, but I believe the test we need is a source with 110+ IRE, preferably 120. The test pattern only goes up to 100 IRE.

I wonder if you could artificially generate such a signal by running color bars -> Vivanco -> DMR-ES10 and cranking up the Luminance control on the Vivanco.

@Jarvis I understand that you are documenting a fe methods that not many would recommend here, so it's quite useful to have a demo of why some methods are frowned upon.

I should add that for some reason I don't get the same problems with my AVT or ES10/ES20 setup that you show here. In the past I've also used the ES20 and Toshiba's for pass-thru, but with less powerful tbc results as you mention. Considerable work has also been done with the ES10/ES20 and other machines for pass-thru in another forum, but with different results than yours. Except for the ES10/ES15, my often used PA-100, and occasionally my old AVT when required, I'm not using any of the other hardware or software mentioned in any post in this thread. That might explain why I don't see the problems shown here (?). I didn't learn much from the images posted in #6 except that they all looked a little washed out for some reason, but that might be because they're screen captures (?). Are your waveforms taken from the original YUV or have they been converted to RGB before taking a reading? I ask because I'm puzzled that I don't have the problems you show. I did have years ago a single Macrovision tape that gave the AVT some trouble, but it gave a borrowed TBC-1000 the same trouble as well, so I attribute that one blowout incident to Macrovision effects. I no longer use JVC players or DVDR's or DV capture and I don't record tape to DVD recorders, so I'd have no way of duplicating your test.

But good to know that some setups don't work so well.

hello mohan
as accurately I can set only the external Osci or in Edius.

I have the original
and
a clip with the Vivanco
When Vivanco from the default null -------> maximimum 10

and another 2 photos
with us again slowly wirds night

addendum

Here the "Vivanco Clip" opened in Sony Vegas
and screen filmed with Mirillis Action

I'm sorry but I don't know what to tell you, this is the conclusion myself and others have reached. Using a proc amp after the ES10 will not restore the luma it internally clips off. That's just how the device works, I believe I've adequately explained why and provided proof. You're welcome to show me your own test results.

Nothing to do with screen caps.
#1 is the unaltered/unedited ADVC capture. #2 shows what is possible to recover in the luma range that is preserved in the captured file (superwhites). #3 shows what is possible to recover with ES10 in the chain (much less). Look to the clouds.

Vegas does not work directly with YUV, it converts to RGB values. The Vegas DV codec uses Studio RGB which is 16-235 (correct). I can show subsequent readings in software of your choice but it will show the same, YUV-native or not. Glenn Chan is a good source for understanding how colorspaces are handled in Vegas.

It works perfectly other than the luminance problem, if that can be resolved the ES10 ticks all the boxes. I can send the signal to anything including via HDMI. The ADVC has little bearing here (white peak is just slightly off).

Also anyone who wants to monitor and adjust levels for DV capture, Enosoft DV Processor has a built in proc amp that can do it on the fly.

PS: Goldwingfahrer, thanks for further testing. It's late and I'm tired but I'll look over this again tomorrow.

I don't know what you mean by this. :o

Thanks very much!

Sample #1 = ADVC 110 <YC> DMR-ES10 (Front Input) <SCART-YC> Datavideo DAC-7 <SDI> Blackmagic DeckLink Studio 2

The maximum luma value in any pixel of any frame of this sample is Y=251. The level of the white bar is around 242-244.
Attachment 5786

Sample #2 = ADVC 110 <YC> Vivanco <YC> DMR-ES10 (Front Input) <SCART-YC> Datavideo DAC-7 <SDI> Blackmagic DeckLink Studio 2

The maximum luma value in any pixel of any frame of this sample is Y=253 (a little additional overshoot at the start of each line caused by Vivanco passthrough). The level of the white bar is around 242-243. As you raised the luminance control, the luma gain increased and the other bars raised. Yellow hit the same level as white, but white never raised.
Attachment 5787

I've attached a few more screenshots.

If you're willing to provide another sample, please do ADVC 110 -> Vivanco -> DAC-7 directly (same chain as sample #2 but with ES10 removed). This should confirm whether the Vivanco is able to output higher levels that the ES10 is soft-clipping.

MP4 see with Edius and image from Oszi

yes....tomorrow

histogram
here it looks different

I think your UYVY decoder being used by AVISource is doing an intermediate RGB conversion. Mine outputs expanded RGB, so levels above 235 in the original are gone if I allow it to do this.

The workaround I've been using for this lately is to Fast Recompress in VirtualDub to a lossless format. Then <16 and >235 are intact as seen in the images I posted. VirtualDub uses its own internal 4:2:2 decoders instead of the system decoders.

Original it is Blackmagic UYVY 4: 2: 2
see Screen

cut with "Direct Stream Copy"

MPC-BE also shows "input and output" type YUY2

Original not cut..cirka 106 MB

ZIP on my homepage
www.ww-consulting.ch/DL/vivanco_Original.zip

Script

AVISource("H:\vivanco.avi")#,pixel_type="YUY2")
ConvertToYV12()
histogram(mode="levels")
ColorYuv(analyze=true)

So AVISource("vivanco.avi",pixel_type="YUY2") actually works for you? For me it throws an error message because the Blackmagic 4:2:2 decoder only allows RGB output.

AVISource ("H: \ vivanco.avi") #, pixel_type = "YUY2")

only # works the UYVY edition

capture with Blackmagic Media Express [BM 4: 2: 2]

with the Canopus NX or via HDMI with Edius is the stream in YUY2.
but via HDMI it comes only with the DMR EH65
---------------------------

test...ADVC110 S-Video-colorbar--->vivanco---> Canopus NX

The Vivanco I do not need when I'm working with the NX card.
CVBS or S-Video

there are even more settings

Vivanco_NX.avi confirms that the Vivanco can output extra-high levels which the DMR-ES10, sadly, clips.

Thanks! :salute: It's good to know that a proc amp can be used to generate these levels for testing rather than having to find an overexposed tape.

If you have time at some point and are willing, I would also appreciate a test of your Panasonic DMR-EH to confirm that it also clips such input. :o

So you have the same conversion-to-RGB issue with the Blackmagic decoder as I do. One way to confirm the pixel type output by the decoder is to place Info() directly after AVISource in your script.

I have the NX myself, if you recall our conversation previously regarding its lack of jitter correction for NTSC.

This is all quite surreal. I don't seem to be having any of the problems described. I don't even know where or when I could put this information to use. But it's been fascinating enough for me to save a copy of all of it in the event I encounter other users with the same problems.

I noticed a high variation in luma between the JVC S-VHS, Panasonic S-VHS (with and without TBC), the ES10, the AVT-8710/CTB-100, and the DataVideo TBC-100/1000 -- and that's outright ignoring other hardware that I could list. My issue is with homemade tapes more than not, especially anything filmed in overly bright or dim light. There's some sort of tape-based issue at play.

The AG-1980P further confounds with capacitor issues, as you're never 100% sure if the caps are at fault. I'm having that problem right now.

Sometimes the ES10 doesn't correct really wiggly tapes (bad horizontal jitter), and is best for top-frame tearing use. I experienced that just today. The wiggles caused frame drops and inserts.

It's obnoxious. Sometimes I just want to throw the tape against a wall. :rage:

as requested

solution see screen "A_solution"
original article

post 4
http://forum.gleitz.info/showthread.php?47141

Post 6 + 7
http://forum.gleitz.info/showthread....drastic+codecs

Post 2
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=140820

That's the setting I meant when I referred to VDub using its own decoders. I thought it was enabled by default, but now I don't know.

There was something in the extremely long readme file for the Drastic codecs that scared me away from using them. I forget what it was. Can you have Drastic installed at the same time as Blackmagic's decoders?

Checking this from my phone right now so can't look at all the tests. But thanks so much to you guys for actively participating in the thread, I appreciate it.

On a separate note, I made a suggestion in the past that the forum should have a mobile version, but it was knocked back. Would DigitalFAQ reconsider? It is very inconvenient to use the desktop version on mobile displays.

Anyway, moving onward -
The main tests I'd like to see are
1. How the ES10 handles an overexposed video after levels are lowered by the Vivanco
2. Whether the Vivanco negates the ES10 line correction. I'm assuming it won't if Vivanco doesn't frame sync, but then I'm not educated on how proc amps operate internally and whether that's the only factor.

Regarding #1, I understand color bars are a convenient method for testing, but they do not account for the constantly fluctuating analog signal which may be a factor in how levels are handled. My biggest fear concerning the ES10 is that it will always revert to the same range irrespective of proc amp adjustments. Based on the footage it may be an acceptable result or it may not.

Based on tests I've read by VH member 2Bdecided, if I understand correctly, the ADVC-110 is one device that does just that. As I said before, its white peak is slightly wrong, acceptable but still imperfect. Refer to this thread over at VideoHelp.

An excerpt:
So I'm hoping that is not the case with the ES10.
Out of my hardware collection, I've found my JVC DR-M10 is the standard for capturing full luminance. That's what I'm using as my reference for other devices.

Yes I agree that is a good idea, would also like to see that. I'll also be performing some more tests that haven't been done yet. Not sure if they'll be of use but I've got some ideas.

If you don't mind, what was your combination of hardware, and types of footage, when you were using the ES10?

If Goldwingfahrer doesn't have an overexposed tape available, perhaps one could be generated and then captured to fulfill both of these tests at the same time.

DVD test pattern with vertical lines -> Vivanco with luminance cranked -> record on VHS

Then:
Play high-luma VHS on different VCR -> Vivanco with luminance lowered -> DMR-ES10 -> capture device

The confounding factor would be how the VCR's AGC handles the overly-bright input at the first stage. If it does some clipping on the recording side, or lowers gain to bring the bright source into standard range, things will get confusing.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but the user Mini-Me on VH posted about how he used his proc amp to prevent his Philips DVDR3475 from clipping and flickering due to overly bright tapes.

EDIT: I also wouldn't take 2Bdecided's testing to indicate that placing a proc amp before the ADVC110 is ineffective at reducing the contrast. He said this was a "simple video amplifier". I take this to mean it's amplifying or reducing the entire video waveform without the ability to target the actual active picture level.

post 29
yes

http://www.drastic.tv/index.php?opti...ions&Itemid=95

I can send the email address of Mikey Lee Jones them

I work at the moment a lot of capture ..

a recording on VHS tape can do that create itself.
There are many devices that output a standard color bars

Vivanco was just an example
it also works with a Kramer SP-11D
or potentiometer adjustment in the recorder

Spot on, I've experienced just the same. I don't think any one of my devices outputs the exact same range of luma. The DR-M10 though, as I said, is the best of the lot at reading levels. I bought a couple of the JVC DVD recorders a long while ago under your recommendation, a good combo when paired with the JVC VCRs.

The NV-FS200 is the closest PAL equivalent of the AG-1980 and if I recall, one or even both of my units clipped luma with TBC active. A logical reason for it would be that as an editing VCR, it's programmed to legalize values. I know one of the units has deteriorated a bit and applies a green tint to the video too. This is one model where behaviour is wildly different depending on the condition of the unit. It's been a while since I even plugged them in now, I mostly use JVCs.

I've personally never seen a tape where the ES10 didn't straighten out horizontal jitter. However there was one rare case where it caused constant vertical jitter on one scene, and I actually had to activate the JVC's TBC to stabilize it. Either that or one of my JVCs has a problem with the TBC indicator and I may have actually been turning the JVC TBC off. I can't remember now.

Yes, that setup you posted looks like a good solution.

Reading back on it that sounds correct. I don't think I thought out my reply at the time, as it should be possible to reduce the level. I've got a lot of testing to do, hopefully get a chance in the coming days. I think I'm also going to buy one of those Vivanco proc amps. It's either that or a Vidicraft I've had my eye on, since I like the metering feature.

Does anyone know if Vidicraft proc amps eg. PRC-100 are PAL compatible?
If someone has an answer please let me know asap.

Yes I have the 200 also

but these were only the newer model
I had the 121 and the latest 930
Both green + darker image

Did you mean something ??
http://www.vidicraft.com/VSC-2112.pdf

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/2...imate-detailer

Sorry, I thought I replied to this. I guess I lost track somehow.

vcr's (excluding those not used for 3 years or more): Panasonic AG-1980P, PV-S4670 SVHS (circa 1996), PV-4665 (circa 1996), rebuilt SONY SLV-585HF (circa 1990). I used JVC in the past but they didn't last long and started eating tapes.

frame tbc (when required): AVT-8710, new in 2004. Pumps gamma somewhat, but I can't say it has been excessive.

pass-thru tbc: Panasonic DMR-ES10 and DMR-ES15, Toshiba RD-XS34.

proc amp: Sign Video PA-100 (new in 2005).

capture: ATI AIW 7500 and 9600XT AGP Radeons, VirtualDub capture to lossless huffyuv.

Tapes: occasional homemade analog tapes from sister and other relations, some made by pros (wedding, bar mitzvah, baptism, etc), the last of which I digitized about 18 months ago. Several ancient retail VHS prints (one obviously trashed by Macrovision). Hundreds of hours of home EP/SP tapes recorded off cable tv, still have several SP and SLP tapes. Except for bad lighting situations, the home camera tapes tended to be slightly underexposed, or maybe they're just old, or like my sister they use batteries until the Bunny dies. Several years ago I worked with some DV. The experience kept me away from DV ever since. Analog has its own problems, but I don't get bright "spikes" or burnout all over the place. I see it often with DV. When someone asks me about transferring DV, I suggest digitalfaq.

Sanlyn,
Thanks for posting your hardware / capture info. It doesn't look anything out of the ordinary however so I don't see how the ES10 issue could've been omitted. If you still own it though then it's certainly worth another look.

Please understand that the DV format is in no way relevant to the issues in this thread. The discussion here is that ES10 does not capture the correct luminance. If you recall post #1, it shows that the JVC DR-M10 DVD recorder and the ADVC-110 capture near identical luma range, which eliminates ADVC from being a variable. Both of them are exemplary in that regard, though the former more so. The ES10 has also been tested with other (non-DV) hardware and produced the same problem.

I don't own 121 or 930, but the green tint on my NV-FS200 appears to be a result of degradation. I don't believe it is inherent to the model.

Not the VSC-2112, as I need a proc amp without frame sync. Otherwise the ES10 line correction will not work.
Thanks for the VideoHelp link though. There seem to be very mixed reviews about PAL compatibility for Vidicraft / Signvideo gear. It would be nice to get a definitive answer if possible, the model I'm currently looking at is PRC-100.

use cash cow ;-)

http://www.signvideo.com/products/pr...o-proc-amp.htm

Feeder ----> passthrough Pana AG7750 ----> ES10
or
Feeder ---> ES10 ----> passthrough Pana AG7750

I'm not using what you're using, other than the ES10. My point is that it works properly for me when I use it. With or without the ES10 I get the same incoming capture histogram and I make the same luma adjustments to suit the tapes I'm working with. This is based on hundreds of hours over the years of capturing VHS with the gear I listed, and with similar gear before I owned an ES10. Before I got my ES10 and ES15 I used an ES20 and the Toshiba I mentioned, but neither were powerful enough as a tbc for really bad tapes. So many initial histogram readings over the years have been so similar that I use those settings as defaults. When I do encounter differences it's always the VCR and/or specific tapes that require adjustment to the defaults.

Your notes are still of great interest, even if I don't have the components to repeat your tests. :wink2:

I saw this the other day: http://www.tgrantphoto.com/sales/ind...n-modification

I would be worried that the unprocessed image bottom would negatively impact the ES10 AGC.