Panasonic 1980P noise patterns?
 

I purchased a Panasonic 1980P off of the DigitalFAQ marketplace from a guy that bought it direct from TGrantPhoto (I have the original invoice). He bought the VCR in the summer of 2018, finished his capture project (about 100 tapes) and sold it to me in January 2020 (a year ago).

Due to factors beyond my control, I was only able to start my capture project now. I connected the VCR last night and despite doing some research, I am having problems.

I’ve uploaded three videos to YouTube from three different tapes. One is a S-VHS demo tape. Not a commercial tape, but something someone put together. Another one from an old, used commercial VHS tape that doesn't look dirty or anything. Actually it looks like it's in great, physical condition. And the last one is a brand new commercial VHS tape that I just unsealed last night.

SVHS: https://youtu.be/ZrPHS3zRkfo
Old VHS: https://youtu.be/ePfvnRuGFU8
Brand new VHS: https://youtu.be/VrISvolL1yc

One thing you can't help notice is that the issue seems to be the worse on the VHS tapes, with the used tape being the absolute worst.

Please view the YouTube Videos in 4K or 1080p quality. Of course the original capture was done in SD, but I upconverted to 4K so that YouTube compression wouldn’t smear the details too much.

I have the Panasonic 1980P set to “NOR” playback. I set the TBC on and off, neither made any difference. I manually adjusted the tracking, but it didn’t improve the picture. The recordings on YouTube were done letting the VCR autotrack (pressing the + and – buttons simultaneously) which seemed to give the best results. I have not tried cleaning the heads, yet. Based on what I am reading, I’m assuming the issue with the heads, but I’m surprised a guy on here would sell me the VCR that he said was in "great condition" and it outputs such a poor video like that. I am assuming I'm doing something wrong, the cables are bad, etc. for now.

My workflow is the 1980P-> Matrox MX02 Mini via a S-Video Y/C breakout cable.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

The noise pattern is on the S-VHS tape too, it is just less noticeable, I would try to clean the video heads just to be certain but it might be something related to bad capacitors.

I would send those links plus a copy of the receipt to TGrant. He can probably best identify the potential culprits, and likely he has records on what caps were previously replaced to further narrow it down.

No idea, but hopefully he would strike you a deal on a repair since it was one of his decks to begin with.

Horror stories like this are why I am so gun-shy about pulling the trigger on a 1980P. I'd love to see what my tapes look like on it but I don't really want the hassle of owning one.

I wrote to TGrant and he thinks it's some sort of ground loop problem or something to do with some of the power circuits of the VCR. He told me to hook the VCR up directly to a tv, no capture card, no TBC, to see if it's the VCR and rule out the ground loop problem. I can do that tomorrow after I get a tv with analog inputs.

The advice of "plug it in from time to time" doesn't hold water. :no2:

We've lost all of our AG-1980P decks in 2020, and that includes my personal decks. Some were plugged in, some were on reserve status. Right now, we can't even accept certain VHS transfer projects, and I can't do my hobby projects as I had scheduled for this cold stay-at-home winter. I've not been in a good mood lately, as some may have noticed (orsetto and I commiserated on the 1980 at VH, that was a fun diatribe, quite cathartic for me).

That included 2 decks previously fixed by TGrant (2018), and 1 by deter (2017). I expected a then-$300/400+ repair to last a hell of lot longer than just a couple of years. I've had good recent conversations with deter, he's adjusted his repair methods in recent years, for this very reason, and he should be in possession of my two decks soon.

I'm actually becoming convinced that TGrant's repair work was (maybe still is?) temporary/shoddy, as he appears to ONLY swap out bad caps. Well, guess what? The "good" caps are also bad caps, either garbage from the industrial espionage, or just being plain damned old 15-20+ year part that are known/expected to fail.

I also didn't like Tom's attitude last year, where our emailed question about my AG-1980 stuck tape issue was met with (paraphrased) "I don't know, I can't guess, box it up and send it here for inspection" ($$$). That's completely contrary to what I've been doing online for 25 years now (helping others with video), and contrary to the spirit of this site (and all the information it contains). Even more ironically, a guide on his site showed me how to remove the tape from the 1980 -- though only after some advice by helpful members here, as the guide was somewhat incomplete for the issue, as you'll see in that thread. But I still have no idea what caused the problem. As a supposed AG-1980 expert, I would have expected him to a least have some guesses on what could be the issue, and costs that some of the fixes may entail. After a few more weeks of bad REW slack issues (and 4 total eaten tape incidents), it now completely refuses tapes. Boat anchor, door stop.

I didn't want to make this discontent public, but you're not the first person to have a problem with a deck previously repaired/refurb'd by others. I cannot remain quiet any longer. I've seen some others in very recent times. We may have another timebomb cap that was "fine" at the time of repair, not properly swapped (again, age, espionage) during the refurb. It's the early/mid 2010s all over again.

I can't keep paying now-$500 to re-refurb a Panasonic unit every few years. That's just not reasonable.

When I refurb my JVC decks, TBCs, etc, my goal is to make those last another 10 years. I also want my refurb'd units to look and act like new. I don't halfass anything, and you get the sort of gear that I'd use for myself. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that same treatment in return. (If I could repair the AG-1980 myself, I would. But I can't.)

Fear of AG-1980 deck ownership is quite founded, these things are money pits. As deter recently put it, any slight off variance in power (ie, the caps) on a 1980 decks causes all hell to break loose. These are amazing decks when working, but getting them to work, and stay working, is a battle (that you often lose).

For the record, smashing one of my decks with a hammer (or run it over with the car, or shoot it) is still tempting. :devil:

I never liked Panasonic VCR's, I use to watch 12voltvids complain about them being crap and I read a lot of horror stories about the power supply and video processing capacitors, here is a demonstration of before and after replacing the caps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ_Ruwmes04

Update:

Good news: After a lot of trouble, I managed to get my hands on a tv that accepts S-Video input and when I connect the 1980P direct to the tv via S-Video, the noise is gone! So the 1980P is ok, I think.

Bad news: I'm not sure what's the problem when I try to capture via S-Video into the Matrox MC02 PCI-E. TGrant suggested it's a video hum problem. I connected everything to a single power strip going into the wall, and it made no difference.

Obviously, it could be the Matrox MXO2. I tried it in a different, barebones computer and still the same noise problem. I don't have another capture card atm, so I'm not sure what to do. I guess I should buy another capture card? Before I do that, is there anything else to try? Could it be the cables? There is one S-video Y/C breakout cable that I only have one of that's going into the Matrox. Could a bad cable give that kind of noise pattern?

It could well possibly be the Y/C S-Video cable grounding issue, Get another one before you replace the capture card. Also the Y and C negatives should not be grounded to the sleeve of the S-Video end I believe, check to make sure there is no continuity between the sleeves of the BNC ends and sleeve of the S-Video end.

Is your outlet properly grounded? Can you try and move the whole shebang to a different room or different location just to rule out electrical issues at that location?

Glad it's not the 1980P capacitors!

So I was looking around for another analog video source and I found an old ACE video converter I bought like 20 years ago.

http://www.gthelectronics.com/controlc.htm

Anyway, I used it to generate color bars, outputted S-Video and did a straight swap out of the 1980P with the ACE...and the Matrox card loved it. Looked great, no issues.

https://youtu.be/z0NGznOXsJU

Everything was the same. Same cables. Same computer, I plugged it into the same power strip. Only difference was the 1980P vs the ACE. So what does that mean? Something wrong with the 1980P? Or could it still be some grounding issue? Or does a color bar test pattern not really a good test for the issue I am experiencing?

Analog video gonna analog video. There are very few hard and fast rules!

Not familiar with the ACE, but I assume it has inputs? What happens if you pass the signal from the 1980P through it and then into the Matrox?

Also, have you tried adjusting settings on the 1980P? First thing to try turning off is its TBC. Also try to put it in Edit mode. Does that make any difference?

Edit: I still think it's worth double-checking that your ground connection is good. Is your outlet 3-prong? Some power strip/surge protectors will light up an LED when you have a ground fault.

I just tried outputting the ACE color bars into the 1980P and then out to the Matrox - Got nice clean color bars. So it seems like an issue with the 1980P playing tapes? Also, it's interesting that the noise was different for the different tapes.

In summary:

• 1980P (S-video) -> analog TV . Good image.
• ACE color bar pattern (S-video Y/C breakout) -> Matrox. Good image.
• 1980P (S-video Y/C breakout) -> Matrox. Got the noisy image in the first post.
• 1980P (S-video) -> ACE (S-video Y/C breakout) -> Matrox. Same noisy image like in the first post.
• 1980P (S-video) -> green AVT 8710 I bought off LordSmurf (S-video Y/C breakout) -> Matrox. Same noisy image like in the first post.
• ACE (S-video) -> 1980P (S-video Y/C breakout) -> Matrox. Good image.

In the cases where there were issues, I tried turned the 1980P TBC on/off and also tried switching between NOR and EDIT. Made no noticeable difference. Always the same noisy image like in the first post.

For grins, try using composite instead of S-video for the whole chain.

I know I keep mentioning this but haven't seen a response from you on the ground situation at the electrical outlet you're using.

Probably should try a different capture card before you determine it's the VCR.

I can't use composite for two reasons -> the connectors are BNC on the 1980P and I don't have that cable AND the matrox doesn't accept composite. Only S-video (via breakout cable), component and HDMI.

As for the grounding issue, I'll be honest and I don't totally understand it. What I did do was a) make sure everything was plugged into the same power strip that went into an outlet, and 2) change to a different outlet in the room. I did not change to another room only because of the hassle involved moving all the equipment around and the wife already is getting on my case about not helping her with our three kids (two of them still in diapers). I will move the equipment to another room if that's really something worth trying, though.

That has to be one hell of a ground loop to generate that strong of a noise pattern. Like being under a large power pole or cell tower, or having a microwave running at all times. The only time I've see something that bad, due to power, was if the microwave was on, and I had something directly into the wall plug.

Noting that VCRs/TBCs/etc should never be directly into wall power, and always be on a UPS.

That ACE is a lousy device, so I'm amused that it's finally useful at something!

The AG-1980P is a BNC for composite. You can buy adapters for a few bucks off eBay/Amazon, or I'll just give you one if you're getting that other something we're discussing in PMs.

Moving to another room is not likely to solve anything.

Just tried plugging everything into a UPS.
Same problem.

I'm going to ask a dumb question. Would using something like this:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Project-Source-15-Amp-2-Wire-Single-to-Single-Gray-Adapter/3772899
Fix the grounding issues or make it worse?

No, that adapter will make it worse, if it does anything at all.

BTW, be sure to re-read my last post, I edited it after 1st posting.

Since this happens only when playing a tape I'm starting to think this is an open ground between the VCR's chassis and the last piece in the chain which is the capture card, Can you take a single wire like a speaker wire and connect the back of the VCR's chassis to any metallic ground on the capture card, Make sure the card is connected directly to the VCR with no other pieces in between, If the noise persists this indicates a problem in the VCR, TV's have strong shielding and can be immune to such noise. Alternatively, check to make sure the ground brush on top of the video drum (if equipped) is clean and firmly making the connection.

I'm not totally sure I did this right. First of all, I don't have any speaker wire. So I used a 3.5mm audio cable. I taped it to the back of the vcr so that the metallic end was touching one of the screws on the back. Then a ran the other metallic end all over the top, back and side of the Matrox chassis. No change in the picture. Still noisy. Did I do this right?

I have no idea how to do this, unfortunately.

The second one requires removing the VCR's top cover, At this point you may have to have the VCR checked by someone who knows how to do the basic VCR troubleshooting. You can always sell it as is and start all over again, I know it sucks but it is what it is.

I would still try a different capture device before you conclude it is 100% the VCR's fault.

The thing is if it's the capture device's fault that noise will be present all the time not just when you play a tape, So I still think the VCR is the culprit but I hope I'm wrong because that would make things much better for the OP.

This is my advice as well.

I bought a brand new VC500 USB which will hopefully arrive this week.

I did some playing around today and a few things:

• Changed rooms, made no difference.
• Moved Matrox capture card far away from VCR -> Made video much better!
• Moved Matrox capture card close to VCR -> Made video much worse!
• When connected to the AVT-8710, If I wanted to use the VCR TBC and the external TBC, I would have to turn off the VCR TBC first and then turn it back otherwise the picture would be all screwed up (basically brightness shot to the moon - everything practically white).

-- merged --

So weird. After moving the Matrox as far away from the VCR as possible, I changed tapes and now there's noise again. Not as bad as I have seen, but still very noticeable.

This is driving me nuts. I'll probably not mess with it again until I get the new capture device.

Just realize this is a variable card, with most recent versions (for years now) having known AGC issue. So your video will get randomly brighter and darker when it should not.

This will suffice as a test item, but should not be used for actual capturing.

I played around a bit more today. Swapping cables, outlets, power bars, UPS, proximity of devices, setting, etc.

I got very good video (low noise) with just the 1980P (TBC set to on) going directly into the Matrox box directly and not using the green AVT-8710 TBC at all.

Is the green AVT-8710 TBC needed/required/better for a 1980P going into a Matrox MX02 mini? Would it make any sense that the AVT-8710 is not needed?

The AVT-8710 is ensuring a stable signal is going to the MX02 mini. Without it, the MX02 might drop frames, which would cause the audio to drift out of sync with the video.

If the tapes are in good condition then you may be able to get by without the AVT-8710. You'll just have to keep an eye on dropped frames (assuming the MX02 Mini reports on that information).

I know you said you can't try composite since the Matrox needs a BNC connector for it, but what happens if you run composite from the AG-1980P to the AVT-8710, and then S-Video from the AVT-8710 to the MX02 Mini? Might end up being exactly the same result, but worth a try just in case.

Might be a noisy/bad power supply for the AVT-8710? You can try to source a replacement 12V 500mA (or larger) AC adapter for it, but keep in mind that the vast majority of AC adapters out there have a positive center pin. The AVT-8710 needs a negative center pin. So you can look on amazon for a 12V center negative adapter, or you can buy a cheap polarity reversing cable to attach to a normal 12V center positive adapter.

No idea if that will help, but it is worth trying.

I'm still wondering if I have some kind of grounding loop / funk AC problem.

Quick question - if I plug everything into a power bar and then plug the power bar into a UPS, is that all good? If at the end of the day everything is going through the same UPS from the same AC outlet, is it all good? Or do power strips and things like that add problems.

Normally a power strip/bar wouldn't cause problems, but a defective one might. Plus, most UPSs have several outlets, so if you can just plug everything into the UPS directly and bypass the power strip then that's worth doing. If you find that it makes no difference and prefer to use the power strip then you can connect it back in.

I think the VC500 will be interesting to test because it gets its power via the PC's USB port, as opposed to the MX02 mini which has its own AC adapter. It will eliminate another variable anyway.

The noise bar is about the third of the picture, 1/3 x 1/50fields which means about 150Hz, So if it was 50Hz I would think it's power related, Try the new capture card hopefully it will be immune to the noise like the TV did.

Got the VC500 today. Brand new from Amazon. It worked! 1980P (S-Video TBC on) -> AVT-8710 (S-video) -> VC500. No noise. Good, clean picture. At least to my eyes.

I think I should get another S-Video breakout cable. Eliminate that variable.

BTW, I did a 3 min test clip and didn't notice any AGC on the VC500. What's the best way to test my VC500? I have a ACE video converter that allows you to manually adjust brightness/contrast/tint, etc. So I can fool around with that, but what am I looking for in order to know if my VC500 has AGC problems?

Is there anything in Device Manager or anything that can give me any info on whether or not I have a "good" VC500 or a "bad" one? I mean it looks good to my eyes, but I don't want it to have some AGC or whatever problem baked in that I may not be noticing.

This is a problem for novice users to understand. :2cents:

You don't directly see the effects of the external framesync TBC.

And if you do see a frame TBC, odds are it's not a good one. An ideal frame TBC is transparent, and transparency is a main test to gauge TBC quality.

Line TBC = fixes visual
Frame TBC (aka frame sync TBC) = fixes signal

You need both.

I recently explained that ingesting (ingest = technical term for digitizing video) requires whole pies. Every second, 25 (PAL) or 30 pies (NTSC, skipping 1 per 1000 to get 29.97) are sent, with goal to be ingested. But if a pie isn't perfect (came from oven burnt, not round, not fully done, somebody snuck a piece or bite, etc), then the pie is tossed on the floor. The ingest cannot accept non-perfect pies. Our pie eater is finicky. And when you toss even ONE pie on the floor, the ingest process is interrupted (and you have a mess to clean up).

All VHS were sloppily made. It's inherent to the format. Every tape have frames (pies) with pieces missing, malformed, etc.

To be frank (not the intention here to be insulting), the novice idea of "good" is nonsense, as that determination is based on nothing. That's one of the biggest barriers to understanding video. What you see isn't the signal, merely part of it. Some folks just cannot wrap their minds around this. I'm also a visual learner, but also realize that not all science is visual (easy example = radio telescope, which I had to comprehend for my college astrophysics course).

Even with visual line corrections, the signal can be fubar. That causes dropped frames (thus audio sync errors), but also many more problems. Some do bleed into visuals, some not.

These problems are not constant, but sporadic and random (sometimes not repeatable on 2nd attempt, but will instead appear elsewhere where previously not).

Unless you watch a video 100%, then watch it for 100% again to verify (as you do blink, and focus on some areas while ignoring others), then you cannot say it has no visual errors. Still realizing that the visual problems are not the only problems, though signal does bleed into visual for some errors.

Does this all make sense now? :unsure:

Excellent. :congrats:

No.

You can crack open the card, and view the chips, but we don't know enough about the exact chips, and currently have no idea on the firmwares therein. There have been too many variations for years now, and almost all have AGC issues reported in the past few years. The AGC is random, some tapes seem immune, some are not. Some TBCs are effective at (mostly) nuking it, some do not. It's random. The nature of AGC is random, when the AGC is badly done. ATI 650/750 are an extreme example of a horrible AGC.

Did you buy this used? There's always a chance you have an older model, like sanlyn has, which doesn't seem to exhibit this problem. But unlikely. I doubt new VC500 fixed in, and in fact doubt VC500 are even produced anymore (ie, all NOS, new old stock, until warehouses empty).

This is likely. Furthermore, most novice users don't see issues in tiny preview windows, but it becomes obvious on large HDTVs when actually viewing.