ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 works, power supply issue
 

I wanted to let people know this before they threw one out.

The ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 device works perfectly fine on Windows 7 x32 with the drivers from the cdrom.

I tested it with Virtual Dub 1.9 x32

The issue I had before was not that the device was broken or not working, it was that (a) it came with a power supply I cannot verify it was designed to work with (b) the second unit I acquired came sealed in its original box and had a different (more powerful) power supply.

The first unit would only produce a [green] raster and would frequently go offline or report to the operating system that something was wrong with the driver with a yellow triangle in device manager.

I thought it was damaged by heat or something.

The second unit immediately produced an image in Windows Media Encoder, then I transitioned to Virtual Dub and made captures.

The back of the ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 only lists the Voltage required and Polarity of the connector from the power supply.

The unidentified power supply provided 600 mA
The verified to work power supply provided 1.66 A

So the non-working power supply provided the correct Voltage and Polarity but (not enough) amperage.

I'll learn how to post video samples soon, but the picture is beautiful, just what you would expect from a Theater 200 chip.

And it captures audio at the same time, extra external sound card not necessary.

Virtual Dub 1.9 seems to be picking up a VBI line but not decoding it properly and produces a "pop" sound in the audio track at regular intervals. Windows Media Encoder 9 does not do this.

I also could not get MMC 9.08 TV software to work on Windows 7 x32 it says it cannot start the tuner.. but since its is analog.. no great loss.

I was quite surprised to try the new power supply with the old ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 (that I thought) did not work, and it performed exactly as well as the second one I had acquired.

Don't throw these out

I have attached a picture of the two (different) power supplies below.

The one that (does not provide enough power to the ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0) is on the Left.
The one that (does provide enough power to the ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0) is on the Right.
The one that works has model number: PSM11R-060

Some are available on Amazon or eBay but the model seems obsolete from the original manufacturer.

The dimensions from Digikey for the connector are:
Barrel Plug, 2.1mm I.D. x 5.5mm O.D. x 9.5mm

I do not have a direct source to point at but if you match both the Voltage, Amperage and Polarity of the connector you should be good to go. I found some 2 Amp replacements but nothing at exactly 1.66 A which is ok, the device will only use what it needs with respect to amperage, but an under powered supply can't provide enough amperage to properly drive the device.

Since USB 2.0 ports are limited to 500 mA this also explains the reason they had to provide a power supply with the ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 (its also a less noisy and more stable way of powering the device).

To be clear, the power supply on the Left (did not) properly power the ATI TV Wonder 2.0 USB device.

The power supply on the Right (did) properly power (both) the original unit I acquired and the one it came with today.

Be careful !

Label your Power Supply !!

6 volts is an uncommon voltage most are either 5 volts or 12 volts (many) connectors look the same

12 volts would probably destroy the device

(ha) I may have had the composite signal RCA connector in the Left audio input port.. if that was it, then the audible "pop" was probably the VBI on the audio channel

Nope it was Overlay vs Preview in Virtual Dub.

I had it set to Overlay and that introduced the audible and visible "pop" in the video stream.

When I disabled Overlay and switched to Preview. The "pop" went away.

The snapshot is without any TBC or DNR at all.

My current vcr is a JVC HR-S5902U which doesn't have those, and I didn't have the TBC-1000 plugged in for the test.

Also WDM and VFW modes in Virtual Dub didn't work for me, I had to select (DirectShow) and that worked.

The Tuner apparently works as well, it autotunes and switches channels, but nothing is on.. how could I tell? mostly static but the raster was different for each analog channel. Since the change over to Digital in 2009 this is no surprise.

-- merged --

Curious
Another data point.

In the ATI TV Wonder 650 USB - User Guide page 3
It says: "Connect the AC power adapater to the 6 V DC connection located on the back of the TV Wonder 650"

Important: Use only the model PSM11R-060 adapter included with your TV Wonder 650

That is the [same] model power supply that [did] work with the ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0

And on eBay I did find that model power supply, also curiously, these wall adapters were in boxes labeled as ATI power adapters.

This is becoming a virtuous circle of re-enforcement.

That model power supply was obviously important to the ATI USB products from at least the TV Wonder USB 2.0 to the TV Wonder 650 USB 2.0 capture devices, probably because at the time they were some of the highest Amperage switching power supplies available in a compact wall adapter.

-- merged --

Tips for running ATI MMC 8.9 on Windows 7 x32

I am all over the map right now trying things with XP and Windows, and XP in VMware on Windows x64.. so its a mess.

But I wanted to offer a few quick non-obvious tips.

First when installing ATI MMC or individual packages (be sure) to copy them to your hard drive and (modify) their compatibility [Tab] when you right-click and ask for their Properties page.

This has to be done [super individually with tenacious care] the Installer is InstallShield and its a vintage that came from Windows SP1 days, so it expects things that often will crash the installer, even when running on XP.

The Installer can also run "other" installers like .msi packages and they will [NOT] inherit the "Compatibility" rights and support granted to the starting program. This isn't like starting a "shell" on Unix and running things by the "grace" of the ran as user.

All that matters, All that counts.. is the Compatiblity mode assigned "like a right" under Windows to the file object. When it starts, the operating system pays attention to that.. it doesn't care who started the program or the compatibility mode of the program that start it.

[This is Super Important !!]

After install ATI MMC smears a bastion of programs around in the file system.. none-of-them .. have any "Compatibility" mode rights or support assigned to them.

Some like the launcher "kind of" start up.. and sort of launch.. but frequently die later apparently without warning.

TVDS.DLL is a frequent party crasher

Its used by things like the ATI TV program, you have to manually "visit" each program in the file system and anonit it with the "Compatibility" mode rights and support, generally XP-SP3 works for me.

For some crazy reason, the crossbar settings for the video proc in the Settings/Config window for ATI MMC are [all] unique and individual.. and set to (zero).. you know this because [contrast] and [brightness] are "set to zero" when switching to [s-video] or [composite].. everytime you switch.. you start out with them all set to [zero] and a blank/black screen.. raise them and you will immediately see the screen video appear out of the darkness. And the Tint and Saturation are also set to zero.. so orange martian goo isn't the actual color of whatever is coming out of your vcr.. its the default setting for the video processing properties page for the crossbar input source.

The Settings page where you change the video window size, tiny, small, medium, large, custom - does not apply any selection change until you switch away to a different Settings tab page.. then its applied.. snap

The Setting page where you change the video input source or the video proc settings are immediate and responsive to twiddling knobs.. which is counter intuitive when you compare fiddling with the video window size page.

You're taking on the impossible task of force-installing ATI AIW in Windows Vista/7/8/10
And then trying to use the quirky USB version Theatre chipset.

I want you to have success at this. I doubt you will! But one can hope. :)

I tried the former for years, and had extremely mixed results. Trying to replicate was often impossible.
The latter, the USB, is newer to me as well. Yet I've had no luck with it.

The main capture system is down right now. I've added a HDD, and will install XP SP2 tonight. We'll see what happens.

My main concern with the USB AIW card is that's it runs really hot.
Really, really hot!
Like unsafe to leave near wood/paper/etc hot!

I completely agree it runs hot ! ! ! waay to Hot !

I found it was a simple thing to poke a hole in the label on the back and unscrew the single wood screw holding the plastic together and remove the card.. with no damage to the case. It just sort of all fell apart into pieces like a kit of parts.

Then I put a USB computer fan on top of it, its USB just because.. it could have been anything.

[see: picture attached below]

And then it stays really, really cool to the touch.

The case is just the worst piece of thermal engineering I have ever seen.

After that however its of no concern at all.. its just a computer card attached by a USB port.

I am thinking it needs a new heatsink and case design to make it much more comfortable to use.

Dissasembly however is incredibly simple.. no plastic locking tabs.. nothing.

After the [warning] about properly setting the Compatibility "rights & support" above on both the Installer, Expanded subinstallers, and Actual programs "after" install. I have not had a single crash from any of them.

The programs work fast, fluid and with no problems.

What really annoys me however are the [defaults] for a lot of the settings.. they are wacko.. to put a nice spin on them. They seem designed to make you think the device is DOA from the factory.. but its not. Just reset (don't use "their" RESET button it sets them back to factory default wacko settings) them to sensible settings.. like they should have been defaulted to and it seems very reliable.

Another [Tip] is the Aspect ratio and Zoom (pan) handle feature that doesn't seem documented.

You can [Zoom] with a black box that appears dynamically [on the TV or Video image] and it also lets you [pan] with a little popup hand instead of any arrow.. but you can very easily do this accidentally and get the window [cropped] when you didn't know you did it.

The Aspect ratio can also be greyed out by accident and lock you out of the crop and ability to change the aspect ratio of the pixels.. very very annoying. Getting them back has been a bit of an accident so far.. so I don't know reliably how to get it into and out of that mode.. lots of "hidden" features in the user interface. -- I sadly suspect its greyed out "by default" and getting it out of sad default with them greyed out and into a sensible "normal" state of not-greyed out is the trick.

I did learn the [Performance] settings can reliability disable your ability to change the video proc setting per composite/s-video/tvtuner set them too low and they are greyed out, set them back up to normal or above and they are un-greyed and usable again.

This thing just really needs a new thermal box with a fan, sensible default settings for the software and a truly good user manual.

Together the hardware and the software are "phenomenal" but the delivered box and software defaults and "lack of good documentation" seem its vulnerable spot. I fear this may have been the problem with the company products across the board at the time. Its over engineered with features and abilities and someone tried to "slim it down" to not overwhelm ordinary consumers. Then tech support either didn't materialize or something happened.. old forums went with questions unanswered.. as if tech support were not there or (Maybe) were busy working on new products?

Correct. :congrats:

The OEM supply is
model number: PSM11R-060
input: 100-240V ~ 0.3A 50-60Hz
output: 6V 16A
polarity is center positive: (+) -- o)) -- (-)

No. Wrong. :no2:

This is a huge loss! Without ATI MMC, the card is neutered. You lose the ability to capture as MPEG, including 15mbps (semi-archival!) Blu-ray spec. It's just another AVI-only USB card, and you may as well grab a ATI 600 USB, Tevion, etc. Granted, ATI Theatre chips do have superior color values, but still. To me, it's such a waste to only use 50% of the card.

Good advice in general. :congrats:

I hate not being able to use overlay for preview. The "preview" mode has various problems, most notably lag.

I've learned since about using Compatibility on files like a "rubber stamp" use it liberally, use it everywhere.. and it seems to make things work that caused me a lot of problems in the past.

TV Tuner works perfectly now.

Green screen.. which I think was both a symptom of using the [wrong] power supply, and an overheated box, and not using Compatibility mode.. have now been solved. The problem has not come back.

I am not certain about the Overlay problem of Virtual Dub on Windows 7 x32 I suspect it could also be a Compatibility mode problem. VD seems to expect a lot of feature or abilities that Windows Vista and 7 locked down.. making it run in Compatibility mode seems to "free" it up and it runs much faster.

Did you install and use ATI MMC? (TV icon)

Although I am very new to this.

I have made a test recording running ATI MMC 8.9 and in the mpeg2 mode.

[see: attached video]

I see what you mean about the TV Tuner being the gateway to choosing MPEG2 or MPEG4 encoding.

Didn't so much as sniffle.. but I did have lots of unpredictable problems [before] I worked out the powers supply, cooling and compatibility modes.

Yes Its working now.. the shortcuts in the menus call different programs in the file system for different functions.

I had to trace down all the runnable executables in the ATI MMC directories and tag them as must be run in Compatibility mode.. small pain.. but the result is rock solid stability since.

The one thing I wish/would like to do.. is access the Win7x32 box from my main Win7x64 box over microsoft rdp, but so far I can see everything "except" the video in the MMC video box. That is I can setup and manipuate all of the controls, but can't see the results over an RDP session.

I may eventually figure it out, or not.. but this "poor mans" kvm over the network could be nice.

BTW, I have an HP laptops that I refer to as my "portable studio", so I capture tapes on-site. All I need is the laptop, a green AVT-8710, and a SR-V10. This ATI AIW USB is the first USB card that's ever failed on it. It runs Windows XP SP3, and it causes a hard fault that locks up the system.

^ This was the main reason I ever bought the card.

But it was failing on other desktops as well. All of those were XP SP2.

Currently installing 7 x86 on spare drive. If you can do, I should be able to also! :)

BTW: You have rolling interference in that blue screen video.

Well.. far be it from me to encourage you.. :congrats:

But I think you will be able to...

I haven't codified all this into a [guide] but don't forget to disable driver signature verification and run the operation system in test mode.

There's still a lot of details to document to make sure this is a reliable system for daily use.

I think that it is.. and it will be something you and anyone can use.. but working out which steps are unnecessary and overkill.. are still down the road.

The big wins the last couple of nights are (a) it works and (b) it was a combo of hardware and software and cooling glitches

BTW nice kit

-- merged --

Rolling video.. lol.. its raw feed straight from the vcr over a dubious cable. I wasn't exactly being careful with the signal.

The thing I like about this development.. which I was (not) expecting.
Are that its based on the ATI Theater 200 chip
Are that is based on a 12 bit ADC
Are that its based on a video decoder that includes the audio
Are that a separate sound card isn't needed
Are that its over USB 2.0 (not USB 1.0 like the older ATI version)
Are that the MPEG2 encoding is done on whatever CPU is in the computer
Are that you don't have to do lossey capture, you can do lossless
Its not as small as a typical 550 or 650 dongle, or any of the emPIA based dongles
But for the extra quality carrying a separate power supply around is a small penalty
And its a bit more future proof than PCI/AGP/PCIe cards

.. I'm even encouraged that a virtual machine with a USB bridge running a 32 bit OS might be able to do this on a 64 bit OS like Windows 10

I'm going to turn in for the night. I hope you get yours working too..
I'd really like to hear about your results.

Still headed off to bed.. but my mind is full of details now.. to empty a few.
Don't forget to disable UAC mode as well, and [future] planning

Compatibility mode is set per program by a registry entry, described in Option 3 at this website
https://www.sevenforums.com/tutorial...lity-mode.html

Should be possible to write a batch file or powershell script to recurse a directory looking for executable files and [auto-tag] or write them as entries into the registry.

It might also be possible to simply [export] the reg_key with all the [known] programs that do exist (or will) exist after they are unpacked by the InstallShield program and [pre-add] them to the registry.. so that when the Driver and App installer actually "run" they will already be identified as needing to be run in Compatiblity mode

So for example:

Step 1: run the reg.bat file that adds the Compatibility "import" procedure that "preps" the Win7 x32 or Win10 x32 system to [accept] and install the XP version of the ATI MMC

Step 2: proceed to run the XP installers as you normally would under XP, the underlying Win7 x32 or Win10 x32 would then "know" what to expect and ensure there are no errors during installation

Step 3: run wacko-default upgrade.bat file to pre-configure the settings in ATI MMC so that when the programs are run for the first time, they do not default to "play dead" factory settings

This assumes you did verify you have an approved ATI Power Supply

This assumes you did install the special augmented heatsink and windmill cooling top to the existing ATI USB 2.0 case

A side-effect of this might also mean.. same procedures would work in supporting PCI or AGP cards under newer Win7 x32 and Win10 x32 operating systems natively. TRIM command support would be one reason, or having access to MMC or more modern NLE editors and post processing tools.. Yaaawn.. very tired

I see video in VirtualDub at 720x480, but it's only with preview mode, not overlay. And to me, that's a problem. You can see the interlacing lag. It doesn't affect the actual capture, but it can cause issue if your trying to verify quality during capture.

When I select the ATI AIW USB audio, it crashes VirtualDub.

The ATI AIW SB drivers installed without issues, unlike the ATI AIW PCI/PCIe cards. This was a breeze, those are a pain.

I have both my ATI AIW USB and my ATI AIW PCI installed.

USB:
- Audio crashes VirtualDub; I have to use the internal Turtle Beach card instead
- ATI MMC black
- VirtualDub only shows video in preview mode

PCI:
- ATI MMC black
- VirtualDub black

It's looking to be an overlay issue. I don't know what to do.

This is farther than I'd gotten in 2012-2015, but not by much. I'd actually had ATI MMC working in Windows 7 x86 with an AGP card, but it suddenly stopped and I could never get it to cooperate again on any system. Getting VirtualDub to work was about 50/50, and of the installed instances, about 50% of those were preview and not overlay.

The next step is to remove the PCI card, and try a newer PCIe. But I do not have any.

I'm tempted to get an i3-6100 built for capture, using an Asrock board, which would have the onboard Intel graphics. If it fails, I could give a free upgrade to a family member that needs it. Hmmm...

USB:
- Audio crashes VirtualDub; I have to use the internal Turtle Beach card instead
Yes, I saw that device appear as an option in Virtual Dub 1.9 but learned to ignore it. The audio seems to be sent and integrated into the general PC audio mixer.

- ATI MMC black

Yes, This is the default setting on the Video tab in "Settings" in ATI MMC, all of the values are set to (zero) by default so the screen appears "Black".. go into ATI MMC and simply raise them to about half-way and the picture is there. (Its also set per Input "type") so the same values for Composite, S-Video and TV Tuner are (all) set to zero, as you select one input after another revisting the Video settings tab you will see they are also set to (zero). Grab the horizontal control sliders and raise them. Contrast and Brightness are the most important, but Saturation and Tint are also important.. the color is all wrong until the Tint is corrected at least.

- VirtualDub only shows video in preview mode

I think this might be a Virtual Dub version issue. The GraphEdit2 render of the driver also has pins for Overlay and Preview which it can auto-render. I haven't looked very far into it but the Overlay render is determined by the program and it can set things to some unusual defaults.. so like the "Black" screen.. they may have done something not quite (sane?) with the VBI setting that feeds into the Overlay mode.

All of the Settings are in the registry (I think) so coming up with sane defaults may be the convenient solution. In the meantime getting it to work at all may just be a matter of tuning the defaults.

BTW I found that ATI MMC actually detects if you are trying to use Microsoft Remote Terminal Service with ATI MMC. It throws up a little message that says you can't do that. (funnily) I found if you left it running and connected to the running ATI MMC it did not do that but the picture was awfull. The error message pop-up was captured and is attached as an image file below.

-- merged --

Where to Next?

I am thinking there are several issues with the USB that need to be addressed, any one of which is a distraction to working on the others.

0. dissassemble and augment the cooling inside the case (got some ideas)
1. power supply issues (done, use the correct "ATI approved" adapter)
2. insert an "install prep step" to prepare the registry to receive and run the XP installers
3. insert a "setup prep step" to prepare the registry with (sane) default settings for the ATI MMC, and other programs
4. better understand if there is a version of Virtual Dub that works, or remove the reg setting that exposes audio device

The cooling issue might be solved by removing the metal plates surrounding the antenna coax and the type-A USB connector and power connector. Then placing a USB powered laptop cooling fan on the antenna coax opening. It has a silicone conduit to provide a tight seal. Also chip "fins" with thermal adhesive are available from Amazon for low cost.

This would be easy, and wouldn't require replacing the case or modiying it.. just removing some plates and adding on a cooling stack and fan.

There are much cheaper models, but here is a laptop side fan:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01NACVLWM...d=TXTJA0E44WRM

And here are some chip fins with 3M adhesive tape:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01KHIBEKY...ing=UTF8&psc=1

I am [also] thinking a lot of precautions I took to get it working are overkill and the install and setup "prep steps" will be the real deal.

The cooling, power suppply and virtual dub issues may just be a matter of learned behavior, nice to haves.. or "Really should" haves.. but not strictly necessary to get it working close to flawlessly.

(oh...) and write a [good] user's guide manual which tells you about the pitfalls of some features that may look like bugs but are actually (laugh) features

The Virtual Dub 1.9.11 x32 (is the one that I am currently using) it does not expose the separate audio device, except as use [capture device] for audio, not as specific.. but if they changed Virtual Dub this way.. might indicate they were aware of the problem (totally guessing).

I have attached a snapshot of the VirtualDub 1.9.11 audio choices presented on my system, using them doesn't crash VirtualDub for me. I do recall having a version of VirtualDub that (did) crash but I think sanlyn said something about it being an unstable version and that most people chose to use an earlier specific version. I chose 1.9.11 from the 1.9 recommendation and didn't give it much thought after that.

I have also attatched the registry file entries I am currently using for installing and running ATI MMC 8.9 there is also some junk in there from previous experiments. I just used regedit [export] and saved the file, then renamed it to a .txt file so it doesn't look dangerous to any online filters. ( I'm uploading it just to toss something out there that works, always get annoyed by people who figure something out and then disappear with the answer never to be heard from again..)

Obviously I need to repeat and distill the steps for install.

The third attachment is of the registry setting I have set from ATI MMC 8.9 that bring up the brightness and contrast. I have found the video proc amp page for DirectX that should appear in VirtualDub or other third party programs is not appearing.. it could be many things, even my messy install blocking it.

For now.. I know if ATI MMC 8.9 is installed you can go to settings and bring the brightness and contrast up and the Black Screen begins showing video. Possibly you just have to start ATI MMC TV and revisit the settings to make sure it initializes the USB device with [other than (zero) values]

Raising ATI MMC video levels makes the image, at most, turn light gray. Zero input is detected.

The audio selected in VirtualDub is the one it records. Not selecting the correct audio should result in a muted video capture. I do not have "Capture device" as an option, only the ATI USB card. In fact, merely having "Capture device" as an option is unusual, and I rarely see that option available.

Getting ATI cards to function in 98/2K/XP is already difficult enough. Trying to force it onto an OS it doesn't want makes the entire process an ordeal, with failure and wasted time the likely outcome. I've been down this rabbit hole before. I gave it one night, and I'm going to quit now.

I'm really glad you got it to work, but it's not a situation that can be replicated easily.

I think ATI install on WinVista+ is really hardware dependent (motherboard, sound card, CPU, etc), and as well OS version dependent. For example, I have an old MSDN copy of Win7 x86, not a retail version.

I'm also still not truly convinced you've worked the bugs out. We'll see. For example, you must be careful in how the OS treats audio values. You don't want it to redline/distort (too loud!) the audio, which is a common problem in WinVista+ due to how MS f'd up the audio controls. FYI, that's also a primary reason that XP is still the OS of choice for video capture, it's not just the video hardware drivers.

I may attempt this again sometime, but not for a while. Can't spare the time.

However, do keep sharing your findings -- especially on hardware mods.

Sure

I completely understand

Its smart to know when to back away

I released this information prematurely anyway, it works for me, but I don't have the steps documented yet.

I am working on that

I'm seeing some (unsual) choices in the default install available on the cdroms that makes me wonder how they ever worked.. so I'm guessing its not only the defaults that were misguidedly set in the original product.

I "blindly" ran through a standard compatibility setup making the choices I'm familar with.. assuming ATI did the same is wrong.. they made some .. hmm .. questionable choices?

I'll get the software install "repeatable" before I post about that again

The hardware mods I'm pretty confident are minor and simple.. even the external laptop fan idea may be extreme.

A simple heatsink fin stack.. which didn't exist way back in 2003.. or were hard to get.. might be all that's needed and proper venting on the case, leaving out one metal connector plate might provide sufficient airflow.

A short update.

I turned on the MMC 9.08 installer extended logging.

The software was designed for 95, 98, NT and W2K and no further... warnings have been configured off in the InstallShield script engine for any other OS. The older msexec engine packages crash the msiexec service frequently during install on XP-no SP and SP2, SP3, it looks like a bunch of security enhancements to impersonation and COM in XP prevent the installer from completing its scripts and it fails to copy software to the file system. The registry adds do succeed however. Script logic prevents it from installing known compatible requirements of COM objects if there are newer versions already installed by the os or updates. (not good) if it was ever XP compatible it was probably briefly during beta testing. XP came out in 2001, this came out in 2003 they had an install base and focused on that I guess.

The MMC 9.08 installer doesn't crash on Windows 2000 server and seems to work as designed.

The MMC installer will silently decline to install if the USB drivers for the ATI USB are not loaded at the time the installer is run.. it doesn't crash.. it just quits without installing. That means you can't install MMC while the ATI USB unit is unplugged or powered down. Some of the script logic seems to "test" the device while its installing.. if it can't find the device.. the script gives up.

Power profiles also tends to turn unused USB ports "off" when they are not in use.. if they are not configured to remain always "on" they can and do shutdown and the operating system removes the device drivers for the ATI USB device from the view of the MMC installer.. and it will silently decline to install. -- this is not intuitive and annoying, since it doesn't draw power from the PC, it has its own power brick.. but the PC USB port still powers down and hides the device. Best practice is change the PC Power profile (not) to turn USB ports off.. ever. -- this is probably true of any USB video capture device, but especially if it doesn't draw power from a USB port. On a laptop however this could be a hard decision to make.

You know, this whole ATI AIW/MMC Windows 7 thing has pissed me off for years. I'm seriously tempted to pack up a system, drive down there, and let you see what you can do on it. A best friend from high school lives in College Station. But with his on-the-road work schedule, a visit has never worked out. Just a thought. Perhaps, someday, maybe.

Until then, curious to read your repeatable method, if ever you find one.

I'd be especially interested to see what you could do with a PCI AIW in a modern PCI-capable board. Windows 7 x86, though I also had some mild successes with Windowsw 7 x64. PCIe was a brick wall. AGP 9000 cards worked best (with "worked" being a loose term), but new Windows on old hardware seemed almost pointless.

This 1000 times over! Just when you think you've got it working it will fool you. After many many hours of finagling, I finally got my Hauppauge card to "work" with VirtualVCR. And it did, for a while. Until it didn't.

When it comes to issues like these, that are niche issues for our already niche purposes, it's never worth the headache!

Update.. update.

After a lot of fiddling... it may be stable on XP for now.

The ATI USB 2.0 was released in 2004 with software 9.03 and 9.06 which installs and works fine on Win2000.

That same software 9.03 and 9.06 does not install on XP, instead they both produce 0x80040750 String Out of Bounds.

I took the CIM (Catalyst Install Manager) apart to see how it worked. Its basically a WinAmp Nullsoft Installer - to provide sequential install of prerequisites. The CIM "wraps" a setup.exe from InstallShield Scriptable Installer DevStudio 9 which unpacks a setup.inx scrambled script file. Logging indicates when InstallShield finishes unpacking the msiexec packages and decorating the registry, its about to hand over the task of adding the features in the msi to the Add/Remove programs database and crashes the msiexec windows installer. I manually by-passed the InstallShield scriptable installer and was able to install the msi packages but they were orphaned because they didn't have the regisistry and com support to actually run. So the core problem is the setup.inx file supports Windows 2000 (and presumable 95, 98, Me, NT) but was never tested on XP. I tried XP0, XP1, XP2, XP3 same crash every time.

I also ran up the line trying 9.01, 9.02, 9.03, 9.06, 9.08, 9.14, 9.16 they fixed it in version 9.16 but it doesn't seem to recognize the ATI USB 2.0 device drivers properly. I think by then they were on to the next generation of USB Capture cards after the company was long re-imagined for the Theater 550, 600 and 750 USB devices.

Its too bad since later support for Win7 x64 for the ATI USB 2.0 would have been great.. but no company supports hardware it made and no longer sells forever.

The [best] option has turned out.. to.. not be so bad.

Retro-actively, or because they're lifespan overlapped during the product and software lifecycles.

ATI MMC 8.9 does recognize the ATI USB 2.0 device and appears to work as designed. Video Soap is available and works.

Its even a somewhat smooth install on XP, which means it "might" work well on Windows 7x32

The thing is... this combination.. of ATI USB 2.0 drivers + DirectX9 + ATI MMC 8.9 was never aligned on a "single" cdrom.

They were targeting and encouraged people to use the new CIM (catalyst) installer which worked with Windows 2000, but not Windows XP.

I'd really like to fix the setup.inx file, or adapt the setup.inx from 9.16 to go back and support the ATI USB 2.0 .. but to what end? While it is possible, unscrambling then re-scrambling the script at this late date is not a hard thing to do.. lots of tools do it.

But MMC 8.9 works just as well.

I did make a discovery on the old ATI infobase, that (a) they were aware of the support problem regarding XP but nothing ever came of it.. the next year the company had a near death experience and was then acquired by AMD (b) by design the software capture field is "cropped" to 320x240 (or something like that) and limited on purpose.. they were targeting the PVR market so archival purposes were not on the radar (c) they were aware of the sleep problem with the USB port and referred people to Microsoft for a patch to fix the problem.. which I don't think Msft really actually fixed.. the problem continued.

A curious artifact of the "Era" was the ATI MMC software came with MPEG "encoders" but not "decoders" unless you had an official copy of the ATI DVD playback software.. which you had to get separately.. so you could not "playback" capture files made by the ATI MMC 8.9 software in .vcr format unless you exported them.. and the exports if in MPEG format could not be played back by any other program unless you had an MPEG decoder.

Its laughable now.. but VLC didn't exist.. and MPEG codecs for decoding were licensed for money. Microsoft XP did not come with a "Free" MPEG playback codec decoder.. but you could buy a software decoder from several online vendors.. or "burn" a DVD and play it back on your DVD player.. "ick".. Windows 7 would change all that.. and the codec-"warz" would make it kind of not a problem in later years.. but its a funny situation on a nearly 18 year old operating system.

I feel like I'm recanting "star wars" to myself.. in order to explain why everything is so "clunky" in the ATI MMC world of yarons ago..

A tale of two Overlays and Previews

I did not mention:

I was doing most of my explorations on virtual machines running on Win7x64, with the one ATI USB 2.0 connected to the host machines USB port.

So for clarity.. that's Win2000x86 and WinXPx86.. running as virtual machine "guests" on a single Win7x64 machine, and at the same time.

Switching the ATI USB 2.0 capture device "between" the Win7 and Win2000 or WinXP system worked pretty well.

The ATI USB 2.0 hardware was a real trouper.

And a pretty old virtual machine platform at that:

VMware Player 5.0.2

I started out using a dedicated box and an SSD flash drive to quickly backup and reprovision images using Macrium to snatch and grab different versions from different partitions.. but that got old.. and I went the way of the vm.

The down side is I don't even have software assisted Overlay.. it just flat out doesn't do overlay and MMC seems to always want to do Overlay. So my capture or Live window is Black.. but my headphones merrily play static while I switch channels or record stuff. When I play back the file in the MMC File Player.. glorious minutes of static in full rich color entertain my tired eyes.

Windows Media Capture or Encoder programs display Live images, but automatically disable them once capture is engaged in their softwares. Transcoding I can see a preview playback in an output window but nada in the input.

Virtual Dub blows right through all the rules and "Seems" to instantiate its own version of software Overlay even though DirectX9 says "nope.. ain't gonna do it.. on this lousy [virtual] hardware". Which is where the "green pops" appear on Virtual Dub capture files.. that seems a result of Virtual Dub "synthetically" emulating a true Overlay.. but either not keeping up.. or just soundly failing to prioritize the capture over the Live view experience.

I have "heard" on more modern virtual machine platforms.. Overlay support in DirectX9 is possible and not all that bad..

I would guess the "proof" would be to put this back on a hardware platform with a decent video card and see how stable it actually is. My test platform has an ATI HD6450 which might work. I do worry however about ATI vs ATI software stacks competing.. or walking over each other in the single registry and COM space.

I have an i7-6700K running Win7 x64, Asrock Extreme7+ with onboard Intel video. I won't install native, but if you read about a way for a VirtualBox session to see overlay, while passing a USB signal from host to VM, let me know. That's be interesting.

In fact, XP in a VM would be fine, too.

I'm an idiot.

I figured out why Live view wasn't working.

MMC 8.9 had this new default of TV On Demand or something.. very poorly implemented. It really should not have been released like this.

You [press] the pause button and Live video appears.

Its really not intuitive what they were doing..a quick google turns up a lot of upset people when they released 8.9 since it changed the defaults.

This software has a lot (alot) of hidden undocumented hotspots all over the interface, and behaviors that just mess with you.

So it seems to work in a virtual machine, stably.. but MMC is a trickster.. I can see why people looked to winvcr or some other standalone tool that had a well defined behavior pattern.. learning MMC could take a while.

Audio also seems to come and go.. it is there and it is captured.. but these hot spots in the UI seem to flip switches or something. I almost want to take it apart to see what its doing.

MMC is a bear, getting it installed, learning what to press and not to press, and how to recover.

Virtual Dub Capture is a 'breeze' by comparison.

The 1.9.11 version even auto-tracks the sound source when switching the video input.. video tuner or video composite or video s-video.

Its not exactly a vcr or vlc but its a lot easier and more stable.

MMC has Video Soap, for "scrubbing" the signal I guess.. though I am not sure its in the hardware or software side of the MMC. If it is in the hardware, I would think that based on all the other DirectShow filters, there would be one for Video Soap.. which leads me to suspect its in the MMC software itself.

One of the nice things about Virtual Dub is it "shares" its Graphs in GraphEdit.. you can connect to them and "see" how its snapping all the building blocks together and using the ATI hardware real-time. Not everyone does this, it takes extra effort.

I know you can "hook" a Graph from a third party and "steal" the GraphEdit view real-time, I used to do this.. but its been a while. It would be interesting to see how ATI built their application graphs for running the hardware.

Really I pursued the cdrom installs and then explored the many versions of MMC and CIM available because of Video Soap. But I'm winding down to think Virtual Dub is a far better archival tool.. and its not that hard to use.

I've read with interest about AVISynth and think perhaps it could replace Video Soap in a workflow.

MMC on the surface is attractive because it looks simple and quick to use, but maybe its not.

For your own sanity, ignore VideoSoap for now. It was really useful 15 years ago. Now, not really. It's just like the tuner.

You need to be aware of a problem. ATI MMC 9.1x removed the dropped frame counter. For that reason alone, it's garbage. If you cannot verify a capture, it should not be used. ATI MMC 7.x, 8.x and 9.0x all had the feature. No idea why it was removed, but as you're learning, ATI did some stupid thing in later years.

If it's not removed, it's hidden, and I've never seen it. I wouldn't put merely hiding something past them.

My biggest issue right now is that my second capture system forgot how to capture with overlay in VirtualDub 1.8.x to 1.10.x, all versions. It was working great with a driver installed for the PCIe card, which I later used to build another system (that I sold off), and kept the PCI card for myself. It also had ATI MMC 9.1x, and refused to uninstall. So I removed everything ATI, and that's when the troubles started. ATI MMC works, VirtualDub does not. And the system drops frames now. The card works fine in VirtualDub, not MMC. Now it's opposite. So everything does work.

These are amazing cards with one of the worst installs I've ever seen, But realize most video cards are like this. Ugh!

Oh.. I love a challenge.

I'm not giving up.. I tend to make great progress.. learn things.. and then get tired and wonder around for a bit.

Thanks!

Really, for alerting me to things like the feature lists.. and pros and cons about one version versus the other.

That really saves me time and helps me focus, it would take a long time to acquire that experience.

The installs can be fixed.. I know that for sure.. I was just questioning if it was worth the effort.. as in "should I stop now, is this pure insanity?"

So 7.x, 8.x and 9.0x are of most use.. interesting.

For the ATI USB 2.0 the versions below 8.9 do not recognize it, so that's a lower limit. I'm not sure about the upper limit but its less than 9.16 .. I suspect the setup.inx problem (fix) is the same for all of them since the error message during install is the same. I don't know about the 7.x versions. All three development programs appeared to have been in parallel and overlapped in time.. so a product may be supported across all three development programs depending on when they occurred.

I now have on hand:

ATI All in Wonder VE (T200 PCI),
ATI TV Wonder Elite (T550 PCI),
ATI TV Wonder HD750 (T750 PCI)

amazingly they all came shrink wrapped.

So I plan to deep dive into those when I get the chance.. this setup.inx problem is what gives me pause.

The VE will have problems on XP
The Elite should be ok with XP
The HD should be good on XP and 7x64

I am targeting XP since backward app support was good on Win7x32... and feature wise Win7 was the best bargain for users in 30 years. Win10 is becoming more and more like Chrome and feature dwindling... can't believe I'm saying it.. but I miss the old microsoft.

Just to add:

ATI MMC 7.x is not something you want to mess with. Huge leaps at 7.5, then 7.7.
More leaps at 8.0, and again at 8.7.
At this time, don't even mess with anything below 8.7. Focus on 8.7, 8.8, 8.9, 9.0x

8.7 was probably the most compatible, working even on 128 Pro Theatre-chip cards (with a hack, documented on this site, one of the earlier posts here from 2004 when the forum opened)

8.8 was only found on some installed CDs that I recall, not online upgrades. A few AGP cards used it.
8.9 and 9.0x are not much different.

9.1x removed some features, and added a really crappy MPEG-4/XviD capture mode. Barf. Sadly, only 9.1x will work on the PCIe cards, which is why I avoid them for any build where MMC (thus MPEG-2, probably 15mbps) is required.

VideoSoap was useful for MPEG capturing direct to DVD MPEG. That mostly overlapped with the DVD recorder era (04-08). It has no real use now. Either capture AVI and denoise with better/newer Avisynth/VirtualDub, or up the bitrate to BD/low-broadcast 15mbps levels. In the old days, so high bitrate didn't play well on CPUs, and often the payware MPEG decoders didn't support high bitrates.

There is a rare version of ATI MMC 9.15 that supposedly works with the ATI 600 USB card on CD. I've yet to find that. I have a 9.15 version from online upgrades center that does NOT work, so the disc probably had a specially modified version.

If you're serious about trying to make ATI AIW/MMC cards (not just USB, but PCI, maybe PCIe) work on Windows 7, or at least with overlay in XP reliably, or in VMs, maybe even x64, possibly Vista as a fall-back (7 vs Vista did behave different in my tests), then I have about 25gb in archived ATI drivers, MMCs version, and other hacks/info that you may find helpful. Some of shared on this site, but not all, because of the same issues you're seeing*.

* It never fails, you post something, put a warning "THIS MAY NOT WORK! (and possibly screw up your system so bad that a reformat is required!!!)", and somebody would reply "It isn't working for me, help!" or "It messed up my system, and is all your fault!!!" Well duh. So in those unusual cases, I chose to just not share.

Also note that 15mbps MPEG-2 capture will not work well, at all, one single-core CPUs. So you need a beefy dual-core to not drop frames. There were some native AGP/SATA boards from Asrock, but slower 1.5 SATA-I. That's our best option for AGP cards. It's why I've focused most on PCI, and now that USB (which I'm still leery of, seeing how it barfed on my HO portable studio).

I've not had an advanced ATI conversation, at my level, in probably 10 years. This is nice.

wild night..

this isn't functional yet.

summary (don't try this at home - you could wreck your system!!! - but it works)

you can take any of the distribution .exe files and use 7zip to extract the internal setup.exe (that's the InstallShield ISScript launcher and ATI MMC .msi package bound together with the IS script).

these commands basically "lie" to the msiexec process and tell it to ignore the ISScript engine.. so it doesn't crash it.. my working theory is the script engine is "crashing" the msiexec by sending it a bad reference to a command line object that overflows the msiexec input buffer.. doing this directly tells the msi do its thing and ignore the other command from the script engine (I think any way )

Extract the Setup.exe from the distribution file with 7zip

then..

Extract the ATI Multimedia Center msi package (be patient it will ask you where to put the files)
C:\Users\...\Desktop\9_06>Setup.exe /V" /a ISSETUPDRIVEN=1"

Install
C:\Users\...\Desktop\9_06>msiexec /i "ATI Multimedia Center.msi" ISSETUPDRIVEN=1

Uninstall
C:\Users\...\Desktop\9_06>msiexec /x "ATI Multimedia Center.msi" ISSETUPDRIVEN=1

You can install the software on virtually anything.. I ran it against Win7x64 and it put them in place.

But..

IS2016 recognized the extracted IS script (sort of) enough to see they are performing logic to customize the registry and shortcuts based on OS detected and Hardware detected (DVD, CDROM, PCI, AGP, AIW, TW, Rage Theater.. ect..). It also installs a critical service and deploys the language support.

I think the InstallShield script is not failing but when it finishes and starts up msiexec it feeds it a commandline that crashes msiexec.. that's my theory. The best thing would be to figure out why, next best would be to "hook" or intercept the function call to msiexec, sanitize or reformat the command.. and reinsert it. (But) i could be wrong.

When msiexec crashes, it leaves a dialog box hanging on the screen, that acts like a debugger break point and holds the window "open". Process Hacker could then grab the command line fed to the crash-"ing" msiexec and it said something like -embedding {GUID} C which I think is a pass by reference (maybe) to a COM or Registry object, or both. (I don't know for sure).. its also another clue.. if it is a COM or Registry object.. security permissions may be blocking access.. and that might show up as a "0x800405 : String Out of Bounds"

Oh yeah.. curiously.. the "by-pass" method seems to install Start Menu items for "three" different versions of the TV app, at least they have unique icons and shortcuts.

I'm not so wild about trying to make the by-pass method work.. I'd rather get this [intended] method working.

BTW I do appreciate the chatter about what's relevant and what's not.

I am reading it.

Perhaps.. after the software is working as [intended] we could explore [re-scripting] it in something like InnoSetup or Makemsi or Wix.. those are much more current and less effort.

A mix and match might be a matter of Trial & Error, enabling component installs with hardware it wasn't even intended to work with.. I dunno.. that seems a ways off from now.

keep making leaps in understanding,

the failing msiexec call from the ISScript is passing a "packed" {GUID} to the cmdline of the msiexec, that should refer to a .tmp file on the file system created by the script (somehow.. I'm not sure how) .. it should be the result of a portion of the ISScript called a "custom action" or (CA) in microsoft windows installer terms. The ISScript does its steps in detecting and preparing the system then hands off the job of final package install to the ati mmc .msi -- this is called a combo or hybrid InstallShield ISScript driven / MSI database install package. Either XP is blocking this handoff which is causing the Unhandeled Exception String out of bounds error.. (or) something in the hand off command is causing the msiexec to crash. I don't know which. The msiexec -Embedding cmdline option isn't well documented that I can find, and I don't know if the .tmp file with the Custom Action information is available or readable. .. (it feels) like I am getting close to figuring the problem out.. but I've been here before.. it could still be a long ways off.

I'm pushing this information out, in case someone with greater experience and understanding can swoop in and solve the problem for the benefit of everyone interested in this 14 year old software.

Success (of a sort) :hmm:

I was reading the InstallShield InstallScript for the ATI MMC versions that would not install

And produced an annoying error before terminating.

I started noticing that not only were they checking OS and Software Preqrequistes and Preinstalled keys.. ect.. they were actually querying the capabilities of the hardware itself !!

They were looking beyond DirectX support, and into the CPU using WMI.

Here's the Super Beyond Belief thing.

If they saw something that didn't qualify.. they did not catch it and provide a "Helpful" technical notice before shutting down. They simply let it fail and bubble up to the OS to handle.. which of course [Unhandled Exceptioned] it.

I'll put that on the table and just walk away.. let's just say.. not smart.

Customers are left scratching their heads without a clue.

Sooo.. I've been testing mostly in a VMware virtual machine 5.0.2 and when the ATI MMC installs (8.9, 9.15, 9.16) it kind of works.. sort of.. not great.. not bug free.. but hey it works.

Putting these clues together I wondered.. what if I could find hardware that fully satisfied this Install Script?

Guess what.. I have a 2009 HP 5101 Mini (a low power netbook) with a generic OEM install of Windows XP and Service Pack 3.

Also..

I have also been toying with WinSTALL LE, a "re-packager" that came free with Windows Server 2000.. which examined a machine before a software setup was installed, then after and produced a Corporate network compatible standalone "Installer Package".

WinSTALL LE has changed hands over the years, but most recently the new owners updated it for Windows 7 and continued to make a "free" version available. They have since stopped offering it to the public but it had a good reputation as the go to software for over two decades. I happen to have a copy of that.. and took a "snapshot" of the 5101 netbook both before and after and generated a package.

Back to the netbook.

The cdrom version of the software that came with the ATI TV Wonder USB2.0n installed "flawlessly" and performs exactly like you would expect it to perform.

This confirmed the "idea" that the ATI MMC installers are "looking" for unpublished prerequisites, in the hardware that is discovered using WMI. Weird Installer failures can (now) be chocked up to failing a test in the install script.. not necessarily "buggy" installers.. simply.. dumb installers.. which don't tell you why they are quiting.

I think or I am almost sure from reading the scripts its looking for specific MMX or SSE instruction capabilities in a CPU and possibly more. Virtual machines tend to not virtualize a complete set of advanced native instructions.. and code that detects missing instructions often have a backup plan to "emulate" the missing capabilies.. but a coder can decide to just "fail" or "Terminate" their code rather than build in a backup plan.

Also AMD Cyrix NEC or other cheap CPU manufacturers can take a detour and offer competing advanced instruction sets.. like x64 for example.. which may or may not take the place or offer options a coder will accept.. so the ATI MMC software seems to be very picky about at least CPU hardware, memory hardware and dma access.. a slurry of undocumented "dependencies".

Its very satisfying to know why the Installers are not working everywhere on every hardware platform that can minimally run WinXP SP2. I never considered there could be other very sensible reasons.

[Sooo] why does the "re-packager" re-package matter?

Simple.. [ it has no script ] ..

it simply lays down the files and registry entries and shortcuts and copies the files it needs to wherever they need to go.

[Why] is that of any interest at all?

Well.. most of those advanced instruction sets were about "speed" and "ram" which back then were in short supply.. today our machines are horendously fast, gigantic in memory capacity, and titantic in storage space.

Even if the coders didn't code a path around missing advanced instructions, the compilers they used.. often automatically did.. and so the software will often still run on hobbled machines with CPU's the size of a planet.

So.. I'm saying there's a chance.. that a simple.. dumb and dummber.. re-packaged package installer may be more stable and not crash while your installing, and easier to debug.

The compressed first attempt .msi installer came out:

180-V01100-200.msi - 82.4 MB (86,482,944 bytes) - installs ATI MMC 9.08

That was created using the "Express" settings and just letting it run.

So it installed "everything" that was on the cdrom.. except the DVD player software. The DVD player requires a decoder license and key or something which I think has to be installed apriori.. if it doesn't see its already there.. it just declines to install the DVD player.

Individual component installs would probably be a lot smaller.

-- it does include "uninstall" information as well

As they say.. Wax on.. Wax off

The Install Script did serve a purpose.. it tailored and customized the install for several different operating systems and situations.. 95, 98, NT, 2k or DVD or noDVD, FM radio or no FM radio, PCI, AGP or USB tuner hardware.. so this much simpler install may not be appropriate for all situtations.

But it is interesting.

Thinking about Win7 x32

The Install script does look for 95, 98, NT, 2K and in some sections XP

But it will fail to detect Win7 (or Vista or 8 or 10) at all

So that means even if run under compatibility mode it could be checking things outside the norm when it comes to just the reported OS version.. it may do very dumb things based on its own independent probing of the machine. It may not recognize certain pieces of hardware, ect.. (what's a SATA drive, or SSD.. for example)

Since the ATI installer is "going off road" it wouldn't be surprising to see some odd behavior

Treating an application already installed as a WinXP app and setting "run this app as an XP app" would be easier, especially if the normal Install Script isn't getting in the way and misbehaving badly.

Its only a personal thought.

MMC may just be misunderstood.. and need a little therapy.

I've said this for a quite a while now: ATI AIW hardware doesn't seem to understand dual-core or quad-core, though it seems to takes advantage of it anyway (by not dropping frames on 15mbps captures). Many, many audio cards also fail its pointless MMC cash test, even though the card is fine.

So ATI is somewhat slow, dimwitted, outdated. But before you jump on any ATI hate bandwagon, ATI and Canopus aren't any better. Most video capture workflows were created with a specific setup in mind, not any future one (even when claimed they do).

You jostled a memory for me. I vaguely remember using 7zip to extract part of an archive, and use the installer inside of it, back in 2012 when I was doing the WinVista/7 ATI AIW/MMC thing. Hmmm... No repeatable successes at the time, but it may be because I forgot to repeat that step when I tried it again 2 years later.

How much of the ATI installers can be repaired, ignored, or even lied to?

I'm not sure.

Virtual machines excel in lie'ing to software to get them to work.

The InstallScripts however seem to be using WMI as the mechanism for probing the equipment before deciding what to setup, or how, or not.

I would guess you would want to [audit] what the processes were tickling in the WMI database, then intercept or write something to respond otherwise.

The scripts seems to be traversing /root/cimv2 which is about as general as you could get. I don't know Wbem well but suspect you can override the answers there fairly easily.. maybe a MDL or MOF "fake" provider? SNMP used to have something like that where you could substitute scripts that were elaborate, or just echo'ed back plain text when queried.

The hard part is "guessing" the right answers without a successful install, this HP 5101 mini netbook is a success.. so auditing the responses from it should provide a good template.

I suspect it would go like this:

Step 1, before install, apply an (overlay) .mof or .mdl file to a system
Step 2, run the installer

other variations might be to see what the scripts do if they are denied access to the /root/cimv2 branch, would they default to sanity values, refuse to install, report "Access Denied"?

What I've learned from this is that "certain combinations" of CPU, GPU and hardware probably work, and changes made by switching out cards or hardware during the course of a machines life, probably changed the installed software behavior.. the proper course of action would have been to "Warn" the end-user to remove the ATI software (before) making a hardware change, make the hardware change and (then) reinstall the ATI software.. it would probe again and setup in accordance with the new restrictions.

But inverting that by changing hardware (first) and then attempting to (fix) the now broken ATI software would be crippled by the plug and play system. PnP disables and removes drivers and branches of the CIM when hardware changes.. so old code paths would not work, basically (uninstall) of the ATI software would fail or at least be (incomplete).

That should (always) be standard practice.

Its a catch-22 situtation that has plagued Windows for a long long time.. the default behavior only works if you never update hardware, and alway use microsoft supplied drivers. The Apple model avoids this by denying uninstall processes really exist, everything is top down, or forwards.. only way back is reinstall.. or buy a whole new system.

I noticed another difference.

The 5105 netbook had XP (Home) edition not XP (Professional).

I doubt this is significant.. but the home TV and PVR markets they were targeting were more towards Home and MCE types of installation.

I normally use Professional edition for the domain join features I use at work.. and its just more familar to me than Home edition

Truth is though, Home editions had feature (trade offs) that Professional did not have, or had instead to balance the sales value proposition.

ATI was probably developed and tested expecting a Home edition.. not a Pro or Ultimate or whatever.. that could make a difference in installer behavior too.

.. its grasping at straws.. but its a real variable

Gamers were also a target demographic, and they also were Home users, not Professional users.. for that they often got extra games or gamer support software installed with Home editions that Pro users did not have.

Win7 when that came along had a built-in (in place upgrade) which could carry you through four or more potential "edition flavors" and I doubt the ATI software was tested across Home premium through Home Ultimate Premium editions

I tested with XP Home vs XP Professional.. no difference.

In the virtual machine using Virtual Box 4.1, I did not get an error and was able to install MMC from the original cdrom which included ATI MMC 9.08 - I could not do this is the VMware Player 5 virtual machine because I got the 0x80040705 error message.

Virtual Box 4.1 still would not run the TV application, the USB port would lock up.

But the take away is that the 0x80040507 error seems to be a symptom of the VMware Player 5 machines emulation of the hardware the MMC software needs in order to install. It is still the Installshield Install Script which is failing the install on this virtual machine but discovering additional details is always interesting.

MMC 8.9 and MMC 9.15, 9.16 do install in VMware Player 5 and can play TV over the USB without locking up.

I have not tried an XP Virtual Mode or Windows Hyper-V virtual machines.

And VMware Player and Virtual Box are much more mature these days, I was running an old copy of each due to work on a project with Coldfusion 5 on Linux from long long ago. I will probably update and see if it will work on those newer platforms.

Trojan horse method

Virtualbox has terrible USB 2.0 support, runs at USB 1.1 speeds.. which the TV player program won't tolerate.

But you can Export a Virtualbox VM from [File|Export] to a .OVA open virtual architecture machine

Then [Open] that machine in VMware, it complains, but try again at lower settings and it succeeds.

The virtual machine keyboard works, the mouse does not, until you inject/install VMware Tools from the File menu and manually confirm with the keyboard and reboot.

After that the VM boots and has MMC 9.08 already installed, courtesy of Virtualbox.

I haven't upgraded VMware or Virtualbox to see if later releases work without this trick.. but its one way to get around the Installshield Install script failing with Error 0x8004075.

I have to wait a bit before I can test the USB communications with the ATU USB2.0 but have a feeling it will work, since the VMware USB support is much better.. closer to normal speeds.

A convoluted way of installing.. but sneaky

While the Trojan method works.. I could never get the MMC 9.08 to work, even after bringing it into VMware

And upgrading VMWare and VirtualBox never brought a success.

MMC 9.08 just does not want to work on Virtual hardware.

MMC 8.9 (does) work on virtual hardware, and it does install on XP.

Lesson learned was if you use the cdrom software that comes with the ATI TV Wonder USB2.0n

Then you have to use [real] hardware, the MMC that comes on the two different cdroms had 9.03 and 9.08 and those just would (not) work, even if you could get them installed on VMware or Virtualbox, on any version from 5 to 14 for VMware or 4 to the latest 5 for Virtualbox.

I really wanted to find a virtual machine solution, but the effort is looking harder than finding an older laptop with real hardware that the software does work with.

So I'm branching.

If you use the ATI TV Wonder USB2.0n drivers from the cdrom and then install the UCI and the MMC8.9 in a virtual machine like VMware 5 or above.. that will work.. but its unusual.. and the default of TV On Demand being (on) will leave you a black screen with audio coming in. You have to manually turn (off) TV OnDemand and the picture will appear. < That is a lot of hard won information.. and its reproducable.

Somewhat harder, but similar, the same combo of drivers + UCI + MMC 8.9 on Windows 2000 in VMware 5 also works.. but TV OnDemand still causes problems.

The VMware virtual experience is always competing for real hardware resources and is suboptimal.. I don't think you can tweak it out.

The HP 5101 mini experience even under XP Home edition was much nicer.. and even for a netbook, its specification dwarf the [normal] hardware specifications of "most" computers from 2004 when the ATI TV Wonder USB2.0n came out. (forwarning: There was a USB 1.1 compressed version of the ATI TV Wonder USB, but it was dramatic red in color and did not work well.. it is not the same thing.. stay away from it.. its too low bandwidth, the drivers are available.. but its just really from the Windows 98 era when USB 1.1 was available if not dominate)

The HP 5101 mini came out in the year 2009 and ended production around 2010 or 2012, it still has support drivers available from HP for Vista and Windows 7x32 (how convenient?)

I have not tested a Win7x32 install .. but I'm eager to try it.

I'm busy this weekend so this trial will have to occur later.

Longer term I've a new interest in Installshield DevStudio 9 because that is what the ATI software was packaged with.. but I can't get a copy.. or find a way of buying a copy.. its just not available anywhere.. so I'm studying old Installshield books on the subject.. hoping to gleen some information.

p.s. My test scenario was VMware and Virtual Box on Windows 7 x64 running 32 bit installs, and installing ATI 9.03 and 9.08 into that. Crossing the 32 to 64 bit barrier.. could be introducing more difficulty for the software than would happen in a straight 32 to 32 crossing. For one thing there is the WoW64 subsystem which makes 32 bit apps run on 64 bit versions of Windows. Mis-named WoW64 is Windows on Windows for 64, which creates the C:\Programs and File (x86) bifrucation and branches in the registry. ATI had no way of knowing about those differences, and App compatibility may not catch every misaligned pass thru from VMware or Virtualbox.. its a thought.. but a slim possibility things would be better with a VM on Win7x32. your mileage may vary

For my part.. dispelling the "instability" of the installs means I feel encouraged that the "right" versions of MMC will work under Windows 7 x32 without the need for a VM possibly using the feature AppCompatibility.

I'm not so encouraged AppCompatibility would work under Windows 8 or Windows 10 because they revamped and jettisoned so much useful support subsystems. And totally trashed the Windows Classic user interface subsystem as a way of "burning the bridges" for previous windows programers after Windows 8.. they were basically retiring a large segment of the population and wanted a demarc.

Windows 7 is still an important achievement that hasn't been eclipsed by anything since.. Windows Chromebook editions are just not its equal. Its very possible Win10 will go down the road of becoming a special Android edition as most of the office apps move over to that platform.. so supporting Windows 10 just doesn't make sense at the moment.

On the other hand, an Android App that supports ATI USB, PCI might make some real sense.. but I'm not going there yet.

New development

Researching Installshield and the newsest Installshield products, IS and AdminStudio.. they have a "repackager" product in the AdminStudio.. which basically competed with WinSTALL but took it a step further.

AdminStudio can "detect" an older "Legacy" InstallShield install during discovery and use "Professional Logging" which supposedly gets more details from the logs in the context of being an InstallShield install and will "re-package it".

They have a 21 day eval.. which I'm not sure how functional that is.. its still very expensive.. but I'm thinking [maybe] it can examine the Legacy Installshield DevStudio 9 installs and come up with something "better" or more consistent than the old Installshield 9 installer alone. I can't imagine it capturing the logic to support Window 95, 98, NT, or Win2000 specifically, especially since those are no longer supported, but XP and Win7 might get better support.

I "believe" the "logic" in the Installer Script embedded within the old Legacy packaging could be the cause of unstable installations.. its trying to adapt the one installer to five or more hardware platforms.. capturing or repackaging for just the one "supported" hardware platform should produce a saner installation without all the extra logic.

And as I said I now have discovered that the HP mini 5101 netbook apparently makes a perfect install of the cdrom provided software with the ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0 version "n" capture "dongle?"

Before having a good hardware platform.. I couldn't be sure any capture was "good" now I can.

What remains is whether it will also install "perfectly" on Windows 7 x32, and deciding whether re-packaging only the XP or that and the Windows 7 x32 (inclusive) should be done.. and if the eval copy will do that. I know that WinSTALL will do it.. I've done that.. but it didn't have "Professional logging".. I also learned "Prof Logging" seems to create relocatable or templated installs that allow re-tagetting the install directory.. [hints] that it might be possible to re-target for x64.. but only "hints" nothing for sure.

Well.. gosh.

Yesterday tried intalling Win7x32 on HP 5101, so I could try the OEM cdrom software from ATI for the USB2.0 capture device.

I'm learning a lot about old hardware.

For example, if your Flash stick is (too) large the older hardware will fail to boot off of it.

Luckily I had a small microSD card of 8 GB and tossed it into a USB carrier to turn it into a Flash drive.

I used the Microsoft - "Windows 7 USB DVD download Tool" to create a bootable Flash drive froma Win7x32 install disk.. I had to do it this way because I did not have a USB DVD drive, and back in those days USB CD was much more common anyway.. I wasn't even sure a bootable USB DVD drive wouold even work.. and they are getting hard to find... ones that work with really old hardware.. and ones that even work with Win10.. silly world.

This after trying a standard USB 16 GB and 32 GB flash drives.. those would never boot.. it was like the BIOS locked up trying to scan them and just went blinking forever.

The 8 GB USB microSD card was a late night last effort.. and amazingly it worked.. booted right up!

I've thought about it, and BIOS was 16 Bit, not 32 Bit.. so it could be anything over 8 GB is outside the range of its tiny imagination and just permenantly boggles its mind.

Windows 7 x32 was a complete joy to install and revived my utter contempt for Windows 8 and Windows 10.

Windows 7 was an absolute "premium" desktop operating system that worked right out of the box and came fully loaded.

So then I plugged in the ATI cdrom and ATI USB device and immediately ran into the UAC and Compatibility issues, but I got both the drivers and software installed after a bit of work.. not much, but no errors.

I did not "prepare" this install for receiving an older software package meant for XP.. so I deserved the trouble I got.

After a reboot the ATI Launcher appeared, but the TV app could not find or initialize the video

Windows Media encoder had no trouble finding and using the USB device

Device Manager presented all the devices and drivers as you would expect

It was not as smooth an install of the ATI software as using XP Home SP3, but everything except the TV app seems to work.

Win7 comes with DirectX11, so I did not install DirectX9, I'm not even sure it would install.. but there are obviously a lot of variations that can be tried.

This was after the long struggle to find a bootable USB Flash drive.

XP on the HP 5101 is still looking like the most "trouble free" way of finding a complete hardware platform that accepts and installs the ATI USB provided software and works with the ATI USB 2.0 device

But I haven't completely given up on Win7 x32 yet.

Ok.. finally a little Success !

The ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0n

And the cdrom 9.08 MMC installs on Vista 32 bit and is fully functional.

It seems the DirectX interfaces changed between Vista and Win7, where Vista included more backwards support for DirectX 9 and Windows XP. DXVA1, DXVA2 et. al.

When a newer DirectX is already installed (as it is on Vista and Win7) you cannot install DirectX 9.. so backwards support is very important.

I still had to make sure that all "applications" on the cdrom were tagged as running only in XP SP2 compatibility mode.

If I did not an unpacked version in %TEMP% would block any attempts at reinstall until manually cleaned out.. so make sure the first install goes correct.

If it doesn't go correct, open a file explorer window and type %TEMP% and delete the half installed packages.

The [Very familar] Error messages would say "Access Denied" they are referring to an attempt to "unpack" in the directories the half installed %Temp% packages are occupying.. remove them.. and your clear to try and install again.

What I also found is this:

On the AGP (maybe PCI, not PCIe) cards, you could install in XP, sometimes Vista, and then upgrade to Win7. The upgrade left the earlier settings intact. But it wasn't a repeatable process, and wildly varies from system to system (due to other hardware), meaning it worked perfectly, partially, or not at all.

I was looking at my old ATI AIW/MMC Win7 research earlier tonight, trying to see if I missed anything.

We can each get it to work, sort of. I was close, and you are now too.

Win7 with ATI AIW PCI, VirtualDub overlay, and MMC, would be ideal. x64 obviously ideal, but x86 is honestly fine. The big deal about x64 is more than 4gb RAM, but a capture box needs no more than 2gb-4gb. One of the main draw to getting Win7 is to use SSD and newer hardware, and that can be done on x86.

So I'm rooting for you. :)

You keep posting, and I keep reading. You're not talking to yourself. ;)

FYI: Generally, we merge posts on the forum. But this thread is special, not doing that here. The updating makes for good reads.