BrightEye 75 first lossless capture
 

I posted a link to a MPEG-2 capture using the JVC D-VHS deck in this thread the sample is here to download, I promised Sanlyn to provide a lossless sample to compare and since I just acquired the BE75 and BlackMagic UltraStudio SDI USB capture device I thought I do the lossless capture (download here) with the following workflow:
JVC HR-S7600AM (TBC/DNR ON) --> S-Video/HiFi Stereo Cables --> BE75 (TBC/Frame Sync ON) --> SDI Cable --> BM UltraStudio SDI Device --> USB Cable --> BM MediaExpress Capture Software 10bit 4:2:2 YUV

And here is another sample using VDUB2.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...vs-img_3207jpg

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1550811806

Thaniks.
RGB is not 4:2:2.
720X486 ?
A lot of gear and expense just to get meager detail and seriously crushed darks.
Don't you guys ever use better source material?

Our readers need instructions on what they can do with this thread when your samples disappear from MediaFire.

720x486 is a valid measurement that's almost never used.

Remember not to assume crushed darks, details, etc, aren't a flaw of the source. That has to be trroubleshooted, to see where it's coming from.

Even commercial VHS can be lousy source material. Most VHS is. We're so spoiled these days! :)

Yes, please attach files to forum posts!

No wonder it's mod-4 RGB. Adobe is fond of using this size. But Why is it almost never used? Should we be capturing 720x486? How about 720x470? It would eradicate most head switching noise.

Run Info() on that source. Let us know what Avisynth says about it. I won't post the Info results I saw because apparently no one trusts me but it didn't say 4:2:2. Didn't we say something about capturing to RGB? IS it a better idea? If these were originally YUY2, as Latreche34 says, why are they now RGB? Have you ever vseen illegal YUV levels converted to RGB? Does it look like these videos?

Who's assuming? There's another thread with the same video. Illegal levels there, too, just different levels. And more detail, especially in then shadows. But why measure? Better to just guess?

Spoiled? Conditioned, untrained, and Inexperienced. There are plenty of good test sources out there. This is supposed to be a test of....what ? bad generic video as seen thru expensive gear?? It's definitely good advice against MPEG capture seen in the earlier post with the same video. Both threads should be stickies.

Video1 is huffyuv 935 MB
Video 2 is huffyuv 613 MB
As YUY2 huffyuv on my system both files are only a fraction of those sizes.

It's a valuable capture for many reasons, just not for the reaons intended. I'm bowing out of this one permanently. Maybe I've seen too much bad video lately. No one seems to be learning anything, and it looks to be getting worse. What a shame.

What's the advantage of capturing to 10-bit video here? I could be wrong on this, but given when these VCRs came out and the memory size I would doubt it's digitized to more than 8-bit in the TBC/DNR section of the VCR anyhow.

Ok, let me make some clarifications here. The first sample is from BM MediaExpress is indeed 10bit YUV probably should have used 8bit, I cannot change the resolution, It is set to 720x486 and there is nothing I can do about it.

The second sample is VertDub 2, The only setting for HuffYUV available and was the only option I could capture, I get an error message for other codecs, Probable should have used legacy VDub with classic plugins.

The reason of choosing this material is because it has been discussed earlier. but I can make some captures with new cleaner materials using 3 types of hardware, D-VHS deck capture to MPEG-2, Lossless capture with Vdub and a USB capture device, and a lossless capture with BE75 and UltrStudio+MediaExpress (I cannot get Vdub to work properly with BM UltraStudio box, so this option is not considered).

Expensive gear doesn't really mean expensive nowadays, The whole thing cost me less than $300 in a used market, If you would buy those retail in their hay day it will cost $1500 for BE75 and $300 for UtraStudio.

For the uploading part, Didn't think this forum can handle such large files and posting very short clips may not do justice to the video.

read your video properties
Both samples are RGB24. Out of range YUV data is clipped or crushed in RGB. It can't be recovered. Surely a "professional' product guide would be telling you this.
The MPEG capture had out of spec levels, too. I guess proper levels work is beyond the ken of BM 's entry-level target audience.

However, thank you for the additional information. It explains much.

With VHS, honestly, that's most of what I see. In my free time, I watch 720p or sub-720p streaming, still greater than 480i, from commercial/professional sources (cameras, color work, etc). I see Punisher on Netflix, or The Big Bang Theory from CBS, and quality is spectacular. I see a VHS tape, even S-VHS tape, and it's subpar. But I remember when my S-VHS recordings were amazing quality. People ar already snobbish about 720p, insisting that it's 1080 or 4K or even 8K or bust.

It's just perspective. :D

The video source quality is what it is I can't change that, It's called VHS not 4K HDR, Home videos look worse. As to the RGB thing, I don't know if you had a bad dream or something, I don't see RGB on my end, From the capture application to MediaInfo to VLC player, They all say it's YUV.

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1550883495

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1550883495

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1550883495

Oh I see what happened, I used Vdub to make small sample assuming that it will not change the video parameters but it did. That's another reason to stay away from Vdub and its problems.

No, the problem isn't VDub
VirtuaLDub saves to RGB32 by default. If you want to save the original colorspace, use "Direct stream copy" processing mode. This doesn't change the fact that you used zero signal input level control

I know, I have nothing against Vdub I'm just not a fan of it, Never had a capture without audio sync problems and never will and I'm not going to spend countless hours trying to go thru the learning curve, I'm happy that I finally discovered BlackMagic's media express, It took me less than a minute to start using it. Did a 1h 40min long lossless capture and the last minute had a perfect lip sync.
Now I got 4 S-VHS studio tapes from Country Images to transfer, Seems like they were dubbed from Betacam SP over to S-VHS, I see a lot of artifacts.
I captured a small sample here.

I've had perfect sync with VirtualDub since 2002 with over 500 hours of tapes.

Im using Media Express
it's a perfect YUV 4:2:2 Lossless capture with no compression any imperfections in the video are source related.

Thread cleaned, unnecessary comments removed. Be nice! :)

Now then, as referee:
- the BrightEye is not great as TBC, and not from being composite only
- it is cheap, a budget solution, and if it works for you, great -- but again, nothing I'd ever suggest
- I do find threads like this to be valuable, so showcase abilities, and for that user, and his/her sources
- VHS is VHS, there are color/IRE/etc issues in these samples, but again finding why/where it is requires troubleshooting that's not been done in this thread
- also not a fan of Blackmagic cards for SD, too many known issues
- some oddities in resolution
- 10-bit is overkill, just bloats filesize, but it can be done if you insist. Better more than less, I guess.
- is the 7600AM PAL or NTSC? I forget offhand
- as policy, Site Staff doesn't download from MediaFire, too many historical issues with JS ad-based malwares

Thanks for making the thread, and thanks to you both for posting.
But behave, and post samples to threads.

Thanks Lordsmurf for cleaning up the mess.

- The BE75 is a composite / S-Video(YC) / RGB / PrPb(SMPTE) / PrPb(Beta). Its TBC performed better than my AVT black box, and overall for the same tapes I got more playback stability than I did before with USB devices and the VMC-1 DV capture that supposed to have frame TBC.

- BlackMagic I have is just an SDI grabber, It doesn't do anything to the video other than transferring it to computer, The capture and conversion is done by BE75. I know the BM captures devices you are talking about and their problems.

- I will have to contact BlackMagic and Ensemble Designs about the 720x486, It's either in BM software or the BE75 is generating it.

- Yes 10bit is overkill, I'm capturing 8bit now.

- The JVC HR-S7600AM is a dual engine 525/625, It plays back and records NTSC and PAL in their native standard with no conversion. It has PAL60 as extra feature for middle eastern countries to playback NTSC tapes on a PAL TV, I don't need that feature.

- I only use MediaFire for files over 99MB which is the site limit.

I suspect 486 lines comes from SMPTE 259M-C for NTSC. one of the defined SDI output streams.

It could well possibly be. I looked at the manual of the BE75 and could see a mention of such resolution.

You're right, Here.

At its nominal price point of $1378 (at B&H), and with SDI output, the Bright Eye 75 is hardly an item targeted to the consumer market.

I think one of the rubs, and reasons that Black Magic Designs capture products are generally out of favor is that they tend to be fussy about the input signal. They do not well tolerate the wide variations found in VHS output. They expect a good solid signal that is compliant with NTSC (or PAL) standards, and if the signal is a bit too far off they don't like it. In contrast much of the gear favored here can better cope with the variations.

Another issue with much gear is proper configuration, especially setup/pedestal, to ensure black levels are captured properly, and highlights are not blown. A waveform monitor and vector scope in the analog path helps.

(Also, some BM gear such as the Intensity Pro 4K has problems with SD component inputs, but at least those sources are rare. It performs better with S-VIDEO input )

I agree on BM products, However the particular device I have is not an analog capture device, It just passes SDI to the computer, As a result the picture is always displayed in the capture application even if the frame is jumping or lost completely due to for example a chewed up magnetic tape, You can't get that displayed with consumer single capture devices.

Yes they are geared up for professional video quality but if you want to still capture the messy consumer video they will allow you to do so but you have to deal with the problems associated with it, That's a choice you have to make whether you have this type of equipment or consumer type equipment, Nothing can reverse a damaged analog video. Garbage in garbage out they say, You can do some improvement in software but that's about it.

Anyway, I captured a full tape and I'm doing the conversion to MP4 using this commend while cropping off the extra 6 lines:

ffmpeg -i Input.avi -filter:v "crop=720:480:0:0" -aspect 4:3 -b:a 192k Output.mp4

Should I be concerned about de-interlacing or just leave it alone and the players have to deal with that? De-interlacing is a slippery slope and I don't want to attempt to go through it.

Here's a quote from the BE75 manual:
I was a bit surprised to find that the NTSC SDI vertical resolution was 486, but then I am in PAL land:).

I prefer to de-interlace and upscale my home videos as I believe QTGMC and NNEDI3 are superior to the hardware processing built into TVs. By retaining the 50Hz QTGMC output ensures no loss of any temporal information at all and increases the efficiency of post noise reduction. I use NNEDI3 to upscale to 720P50. Actually, I upscale to 960 x720 and add borders to make it 1280x720. This can be put onto a Bluray disc using lossless H264.
Because I am doing a fair amount of video processing I think this more than justifies retaining 10bit resolution up until final encoding. VapourSynth uses all 16bit internal processing by default for a very good reason; retaining the signal quality. High bit depth is also used in commercial fields for the same reason.
Arguably 10bit may be overkill for you Latreche34 as you have elected to capture as-is with no de-interlacing. Please note: retaining 10bit video will compress more efficiently than 8bit (contrary to Lord Smurf)

Yes I kind of figured that out, 10bit option is still on the table but I will use it for important stuff where quality matters.

480 vs. 486.

DV chose 480 because it is MOD 8 which digital likes, saves space, and the 6 lost lines are in the overscan area anyway and with most analog sources don't contain any watchable information (and are well outside the nominal action safe area). 486 is only mod 2 which fits interlaced.

I've seen some schematics from 1990's vintage gear with internal digital processing that used 6-bit A/D for the chroma signal read off tape. After A/D they used 8-bit processing and then 6-bit D/A for final analog output C.

Yes I do get rid of the 6 extra lines but after capturing unfortunately since it is hard coded in the BE75 chips. It is part of the conversion script to mp4 though so it doesn't require an extra step to get rid of those lines.

Maybe you just left out the other details there, but if not: If you just do this the mp4 will be encoded as progressive and not interlaced. Also I think it will use whatever color space the input is in, which may not be what you want.

You can encode interlaced h.264 like so:
Change to:
-top 0 if it's bottom field first (like DV).

If it's a final output file you may also you may also want to specify before the output file to get the common 4:2:0 chroma. Otherwise you may get a 4:2:2 or 4:4:4, possibly with 10-bit which is not as widely supported.

I progressed little bit since that post, I've been using the following ever since, I will give yours a try:
Could you examine it and let me know which is better? I got it from one of VH members after posting for help there.

The video seems dark, and the histogram reflects this, but is there a more objective way to determine that the signal input level was too low, after the fact?

More generally, how would you determine whether a VHS capture was a good one, in case someone chooses to send their tapes out instead of procuring all the necessary equipment to do it themselves? Starting with the codec they used (HuffYUV vs. DV vs. MPEG-2 or H.264). What are some things to look out for?

No, there is not. Sometimes it's easy to point out color flaws without realizing the condition of the ingest (the source tape). But it's also why proc amp can be an important part of workflow. This is a variable that must be accounted for in capture conversation that include coloring/IRE issues. Tapes are often all over the place. I've been accused of "bad levels" before, but the person didn't yet understand the tape was atrocious. The bad levels were actually "good levels" after the proc amp.

This one is probably better, provided the field order is correct. It takes into account a few more things.

You are encoding with BFF. Why is this?

I don't know what it means and I don't know why, The whole commend was written for me based on a lossless sample I've provided over at VH. Is there a better way?

If you use the capture card's built-in proc amp to compress the histogram into the safe zone for capturing, then after capturing decompress the histogram for RGB output, won't this fragment the histogram and cause banding/posterization unless you captured at more bits than your final output file supports?

- What does deinterlacing have to do with bit depth?
- Why would you deinterlace on capture?
- Why do you think 10-bit makes a difference when a VHS/S-VHS/Video8/Hi8 source is closest 6-bit dithered at most? Not even 8-bit.

By the same argument VHS is only 30 lines of chroma so it doesn't deserve 4:2:2 capture, But I think both of you have valid points and it should be a middle ground somewhere for the most part, Going extreme is overkill and doing a sloppy job is not worth the effort. But at the end of the day it is the importance of the material what decides in which direction someone can take the task.

But 4:1:1 is not adequate to acquire the color fidelity, and 4:2:0 is right at/under. VHS is probably a different sort of x:x:x ratio, but not one I care to measure for.

I totally agree.

I do apologise Latreche34, my mistake. I checked google, I did not know this NTSC is BFF or lower field first! I thought you had it wrong...
The BE75 output for me at least is TFF - top field first (PAL)

Deinterlacing has nothing to do with bitdepth. I have talked about maintaining high bit depth throughout my processing chain (which includes deinterlacing). Pinterf over at Doom9 Forum has gone to an awful lot of trouble to enable high bit depth support for all the important AVIsynth plugins. Why would I convert back to 8bit just to do deinterlacing? Any filtration that uses Fourier Transformation may well benefit from high bit depth (eg noise reduction)

I have never deinterlaced on capture, why would anyone do this?

My Panasonic VCR (NV-HS1000) uses an 8 bit D-A. I can provide the CCT diagram and IC data sheet if you would like. The chip is a Hitachi HA-19211BNT. It has 4 X 6bit DAs internally (=24bit) with 8bit output. The chip is Y only. C goes to another chip which may well be 6 bit as claimed above .

.
I believe you are correct about the chroma resolution, but I think it is only for the horizontal direction. Vertically the chroma resolution is half the Y resolution. Capturing at 4:2:2 IS overkill but guarantees no resolution loss!

The BE75 does have basic proc amp controls and pedestal adjustment etc. This processing is all internally performed at 12 bit resolution. There are number of circumstances where higher bit depth has big benefits. Colour space conversion ( to/from RGB etc) would be just one of them. 10 bit is really worth it! 1024 shades of grey= no banding (or at least no de-banding)