Capturing with decent hardware is required to keep up with the incoming video stream. Encoding between a more powerful computer and a lesser one should be equal except for the time it takes. You should be able to do that on your capture computer as well. Good to author to an actual ISO to test/archive and to burn it afterwards.

If going with a second internal HD should 2tb be the max (is that an issue just with eSATA or all internals for XP)? Does XP recognize that size? 2tb+ for USB drives are ok?

Which PC would be better for encoding/authoring? The P4 2.4ghz WinXP 2GB RAM or the budget E-450 1.65ghz Win7 4GB RAM?

Would the P4 2.4ghz WinXP 2GB RAM be able to handle imgburn for Blu Ray burning or do I need to get a bare minimum PC that can handle that?

I've just got my AVT-8710 (green/black version). It seems like the picture is worse with it than without? The fog/steam to the left of the little girl shows gradations with the AVT-8710 in the workflow whereas when it's taken out the picture looks more natural. Please let me know if that means the AVT I have is defective or it just shouldn't be used for this video. And if it shouldn't be used for this video, when should I use it? I have both a JVC HR-S7600U SVHS player as well as a Panasonic AG-1980 SVHS player. Both captures were done with the Panasonic. Thank you.

Without AVT-8710 TBC:
Attachment 3989
Attachment 3990
Attachment 3991
Attachment 3992
Attachment 3993
Attachment 3994

With AVT-8710 TBC:
Attachment 3995
Attachment 3984
Attachment 3985
Attachment 3986
Attachment 3987
Attachment 3988

This appears to be a pretty active thread right now.
So please read this: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/news...ead-reply.html -- we need feedback on it ASAP.

Thanks.

The same flare is present in both versions. The AVT version is brighter. Make sure you have the proc amp controls on the AVT-8710 reset to their defaults. I believe you can do this by pressing the "reset" button for a few seconds. The indicator light for the input type should be "N" for NTSC.

Primarily, a line tbc like the AVT-8710 is used to defeat copy protection. This doesn't appear to be copy-protected video. Occasionally there are other reasons for using it, but I don't see any indication in the "without" video to justify its use.

The AVT-8710 is known to affect gamma, but in this case it's the black levels that are too high to begin with, not just the midtones. Every component that you place in the capture chain has some affect on the source, more or less and for better or worse.

What is the color patch for? It has nothing to do with the high contrast and blown-out highlights of the videos. You should correct luma and chroma issues during capture as well as you can. Color balance can be done post-capture, since it will change with every scene anyway. As it is, that color patch is for RGB 0-255, not broadcast-level RGB 16-240. Both videos have brights that extend way past RGB 255.

I've made sure to reset the device by holding "reset" button for several seconds after having seen it in the instructions before using it. Perhaps I had to press the button a little firmer? Does it look like it's not reset?

The input type I've made sure was showing "N" (it was giving me an odd black and white otherwise and I had to manually shift it to "N" as the auto was having difficulty).

I'd like to adjust the levels but in which direction? and by how much? How do I get it within the 16-240 (that's what I want, correct?)?

I've been patiently waiting to find to go with the AVT-8710 as per the recommendation in the guide on this site as well as lordsmurf's high recommendation. Hopefully he can let us know what his opionion is as well. Perhaps this green/black unit is defective?

you can press select to switch the settings and up and down until you get where you want it to, on the unit alone its impossible to tell numerically if its right or wrong, so just go off of how it looks to you. It generally looks a little bright but I have found that its more often then not a combination of contrast and brightness rather than one setting or another to get things right. i dont believe its defective, but go by your eyes, and quite often many tapes will end up using the same levels.

I don't know how you go by your eyes if you're looking to hit within specific figures. would the steam/gradation effect go away if I tone down brightness? Not sure why that effect is happening with a TBC. It almost seems as if the picture without the AVT looks better but I'm new at this so I'm not 100% certain. The problem is, I've purchased this for it's TBC function and the proc amp was meant to be a bonus feature for me. If the TBC doesn't work, it's defective in my eyes (unless this is how it usually performs). I've heard a lot of the black newer models had severe QC issues and that's why it gets a bad reputation but the older green/black models (like the one I have) did not and it was the best TBC out there along with the TBC-1000.

I have a suspicion the TBC is defective since when I turned the internal TBC from the panasonic off (with the AVT on), the picture behaved erratically much like how it looked without both TBCs in the loop. I've also tested out the TBC with another tape that was recorded in SLP mode and it behaved the same way as if the TBC wasn't there. I'm suspecting this unit is defective but would need clarification before I open a case.

Please let me know if the TBC isn't working as I've been patiently waiting to finally nab a green/black AVT-8710 (7 months). If it is defective (the TBC portion) I only have a few days span to return it for a full refund and since I've spent close to what a new black AVT would've cost, I'd like to use that opportunity as soon as possible. If it is defective as a TBC I don't mind waiting for another one to come along as long as this is defective and I can return it.

Thank you.

It could possibly be defective. In any case, if you're dissatisfied you should probbaly erturn it.

The most reliable dealer I know of for these tbc's with good service who do track any complaints about a product line would be the Professional Video Department at B&H Photo Video.

I bought a black one from Amazon and have been happy with it

That's the thing. I only want to return if the TBC is defective. Not sure it is or isn't cause I'm not familiar with it's behavior. Looking for feedback in case I'm missing something.

I don't see that your AVT capture version is doing anything wrong, except that it's black leels are too high. If you think the left-hand flare only appears on the AVT version, there's something wrong with your monitor. It's on both versions. There;s also a little flare starting in the same area in the very first frames of both captures.

Did you try premiumcapture's suggestions in post #48, above? You might have inadvertently raised the proc amp's brightness control without realizing it. As noted earlier, holding down the "Reset" button for several seconds resets the proc amp control. To lower the glare of the brightest colors, lower the contrast control. To lower the ovrall brightness starting with the blacks on up, lower the Bright control. It might sound contradictory, but "Brightness" controls black levels and "Contrast" usually works with gain in the brights. The two controls do interact a bit, so you often have to toggle back and forth to get things exactly right.

I'm not sure that it is defective -- I've never seen this defect before. It looks more like the TBC is reacting badly to this specific tape. I wonder how it works with retail tapes.

I'm not sure what to say here. :hmm:

Thanks guys!!

I now have a few things to test out (and am excited to try). I'll do some testing today/tomorrow with an old store bought tape and I'll press down the reset button a bit more firmly even though I've attempted multiple times(just in case it didn't register a press?). I'll also see if there's a difference installing MMC as the original one hour capture was done when I had that installed (and didn't have the gradation effect in the steam).

Instead of just pressing reset, turn the brightness way down and make the image dark. The press reset, and you should see everything bounce back. Just mashing buttons without a way to test it is never a good idea.

I'm also not see we can discount the capture device as being part of the problem. Another variable to consider! :o

As far as the tbc goes, I think you should return it. Amazon wouldn't be my first choice for buying the product anyway. Trying the unit with more than one tape, however, would give a more reliable conclusion. You might try the kind of copy-protected tape it was designed for.

TBC aside, none of them will solve the problems I'm seeing on the "with" and "Without' samples you provided. The bright flare is caused by the way those scenes were photographed. It's pretty much a case of lens flare. But there are other problems. Saturation is strong, to the point where clothing and skin tones approach neon or day-glo colors. High-contrast, mixed lighting makes it worse. The first scene with the woman eating looks very much like damaged tape -- either that, or severe mistracking along the top of the tape. Look at the wall tiles on the wall in the background: they flutter and ripple in a way that suggests that the tape surface is losing contact with the heads. There's also some line twitter on the tea kettle in the lower right. In the upper right, the chrome handle of the refrigerator is unstable and warped. I can only imagine what those problems would look like without a line tbc or a decent tracking VCR.

Unfortunately those are not the kind of in-frame timing problems that a full-frame tbc would address. Another problem with that first scene: look at the white objects in the scene, especially the woman's white neckware. You can see an on/off bluish flicker in the white objects. You can also see a couple of lines of orange pixels that flutter on and off along the bottom border, just above the head switching noise. These are suspicion indicators of a damaged section of tape. The overall color imbalance for both videos leans visibly toward purple. It would be better to correct that imbalance during post-processing and not during capture. VHS is far too unpredictable for on-the-spot color grading. But you can always set brightness and contrast to handle what you think would be the worst-case scenario for those two elements during playback. Wost-case settings should suffice for almost the entire video, except for some really off-the-chart scenes that might require re-capture.

The brightness problem isn't unusual with many tbc's, but here it seems somewhat excessive. I once read that those proc amp controls were originally designed for calibrating the AVT, with the ability to massage the input signal being an extra perk. Don't recall where I read that piece, but it was pretty far back during the pleistocene era when I first started working with video.

If you really want to know whether the tbc version is truly brighter than the non-tbc version, it's simple enough to verify by using a histogram and a pixel sampler. I realize that newcomers have a morbid fear of trying the sort of tools that pros rely on. So to relieve your curiosity, I used my own tools and can report the following:

The dark values in the tbc version are an average 12 RGB points brighter than those same pixels in the non-tbc version. The bright flared areas are 10 to 14 RGB points brighter than the same areas in the non-tbc version. It would hardly seem to matter so much, because both videos have been captured with an elevated basic IRE that is almost 15 RGB points above RGB16 black. The higher black levels are consistent through the video and are a little tricky to correct because of the high contrast. The scenes with the little girl are consistently overexposed. Anyway, the brights in both versions were badly clipped on two occasions: (a) when the videos were photographed without regard to strong light in view of the camera or to contrasty lighting that is beyond the range of analog or digital video to record without problems, and (b) they were clipped some more during capture.

I don't really like messing with color outside of software, especially if im thinking about digital metrics. The only time i adjust the settings is if the saturation is too high or the brights get blown out.

Near as I can tell, your link doesn't support what you're saying. Look at the column heading where the 15Mbps limits are listed, then look at the one to the left of it. The one you're referring to is 15Mbps even for HD frame sizes.

Also, that thread is about AVC, not MPEG-2.

I can confirm the reset helped take away the gradation of the steam on the lense (at least that's what I think it is as this was taken during winter) and was relieved.

I was furthering my tests and noticed the 3 retail tapes I've tried all played without the AVT-8710 in the middle. Two NBA VHS tapes from 1993 and 1995 as well as an Epcot tape from 1986 played fine without the AVT. Is the copy protection on VHS retail for more recent tapes? I don't think I'd have anything more recent. And I'm still not sure if the TBC portion is working. I'll convert to RAR files and upload each

-- merged --

So I've finally gotten everything captured and put through winrar. I'm trying to find out if the AVT-8710's TBC is working as well as which flow works better for capture. There are three categories. Home video, SLP, and retail VHS. Here are the results.

This is the home video with the AVT and Panny AG-1980 TBC on (notice the glare on the left of the little girl no longer has gradations like a topographic map.

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is the same video with the Panny TBC but without the AVT TBC to see If the TBC is doing anything:

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is the same home video with both panny TBC and AVT TBC turned off

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is the same home video with the panny TBC turned off and just the AVT TBC on to see what the AVT TBC is doing:

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is a video bought in a store without the AVT TBC and without the panny TBC. For some reason it seems to play/capture fine. All three of my tapes captured fine on both my panny and JVC. Is this normal?

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is the same video with both TBCs on (AVT & panny). Seems like this tape is better off without any TBC? Seemed odd.

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

Then the TBC sounds like it's working, if not adding errors.

I highly doubt those tapes have any form of copy protection.

One of my favorite copy protection tapes is "Liar, Liar" with Jim Carrey, as the tape has really ugly Macrovision errors. The TBC-100, TBC-1000, and AVT-8710 completely ignore it.

Hi Lordsmurf,

Based on post #59, do you think the TBC is working? With my newbie eyes I don't see it doing anything at all.

Also, is it odd that the capture without any TBC seems to look better?

I'd be curious to learn about any findings. Hoping to use this as a case study

I'd also like to share that the free GOM player (unfortunately win only) plays interlaced video surprisingly well. When I played my 640x480 captures (only capturing 640x480 for now for ease of use to look through. Otherwise 720x480) through VLC, seemed like the picture was getting squished but I don't see that from GOM. The picture is the same and the motion is smooth. Only problem I'm seeing with it is the audio. When playing the same AVI file through QuickTime on my Mac it played fine but on interlaced mode in VLC and GOM it gets a little garbled. Not sure why.

Thank you!

-- merged --

Same tape as previous with just the panny TBC (no AVT):

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

Same tape as previous with just AVT TBC (panny TBC off) to see if AVT TBC is working:

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is for the two missing rar files from post #64 (couldn't make the 60 minute cut off)

This is the same tape as above but using the JVC HR-7600U TBC instead of the panny along with the AVT TBC. Seems like the panny does better?

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

Rather than fill up this server with lots of small multi-RAR attachments, could you instead upload them to the FTP, which has far, far more space than this server? Contact me for details on setting that up for you.

Thanks!
-admin

And finally, the SLP tape captures. The below has both JVC HR-S7600U TBC and AVT's TBC on:
I'll post the rest of the SLP tomorrow morning

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is the same SLP with both the AVT and Panny TBCs on:

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

Instead of going through the trouble of uploading all these and having other people have to download so much, I recommend using VLC to take screenshots of scenes where you find the difference. It will help us get a faster rundown of whether or not there is an issue and will in turn get you feedback faster.

This is the last SLP tape. This is with the AVT TBC but no panny TBC to see if it can show whether the AVT's TBC is doing anything:

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

I've tried screen shots before and was asked to provide clips as it wasn't sufficient enough. Fortunately for me, I'm finally done uploading.. (huzzah!)

I'm ultimately looking for two things. Is the TBC working on the AVT as I'm not sure I'm seeing a difference between having no TBC and having AVT's TBC (I wouldn't know how to distinguish that and would welcome opinions) and which workflow is best for retail, SLP, and home video tapes. Any detail would be much appreciated as I'm sure myself as well as others can use this as a case study (which is why I went through the trouble by using an entire weekend to do this).

Please don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong but does the following make sense?
1) the home video with the little girl is better off with panny's TBC and AVT's TBC (not even sure if the TBC works)
2) for the SLP tapes, the JVC TBC with AVT's TBC is the better option
3) for the retail tape, the panny without panny's TBC and without the AVT is the better option

If there are no differences between the videos that have the AVT's TBC and the videos without it please let me know so I can return it asap.

Thank you very much

-- merged --

So when I've uploaded these, I've grouped them in a relatively logical order. Since the primary thing (due to timing) is to see whether the AVT's TBC is working properly or not, I've created a guide below as to which videos are probably suited to tell whether it's working. I've tried looking at these over and over but can't tell if the AVT TBC is working here. Any help would be greatly appreciated

Home video
# (1st vid) no AVT TBC & no panny TBC
# (2nd vid) with AVT TBC & no panny TBC

Retail video
# (1st vid) no AVT TBC & no panny TBC
# (2nd vid) with AVT TBC & no panny TBC

SLP
# has AVT TBC & panny TBC
# has AVT TBC but no panny TBC

If I may ask, are you aware of what a tbc and frame sync do?

My understanding is that it syncs the frames so there're no mistimed alignment. The AVT being a full frame tbc, it takes in each line as it comes, constructs a full frame, and sends it out frame by frame. It has a clock it keeps track of to pull all this together. I'm surprised the panny tbc which I understand goes line by line (line TBC which can occasionally trip over itself since not frame by frame) does a much better job than the AVT's full frame TBC (somehow unwatchable and I personally don't notice a change with or without the AVT?). This is why I'm guessing the AVT is defective. But since this is my first time using this TBC, I've been hoping people who've used it and highly recommended it (including guides from this site) could verify whether I'm right or wrong.

The reason for the others on the other hand, is to see which combination of AVT/AG-1980/JVC SVHS works best for SLP recorded tape, retail tape, and home videos originally taken with hi-8 tape. Should be a beneficial case study to all since these are the highly recommended hardware put together in one spot. But we can't get there without determining whether the AVT's TBC is functioning properly or not.

so lets assume for a second it is defective. what should the video look like?

"I personally don't notice a change with or without the AVT?"

"But since this is my first time using this TBC, I've been hoping people who've used it and highly recommended it (including guides from this site) could verify whether I'm right or wrong."

If I were to be able to answer your question I wouldn't need to post mine. Considering each TBC behaves differently and since this is the first time I'm using this device (or any TBC for that matter), it's only logical that I wouldn't know if defective or not (if it seemingly does nothing) and thus why I'm asking people who have used it to see what they think. I guess ultimately I'm not sure where you're getting at?

If defective, I'd assume either it'd do nothing or have some other non-normal behavior depending on what's defective (I don't know what it would be under normal conditions or potentially various defective conditions)

If you've spotted something and pinpointed/described the portion you've found, I'd probably pick it up faster

My apologies for being a relative newb. I understand it can be frustrating sometimes dealing with people who've just started out.

Your understanding of the difference between a line tbc and frame tbc is not correct.

No it doesn't. It works frame by frame, not line by line. In rebulding the frame sync timing signal it ensures a constant frame frame. In doing so, it rebuilds timing signals in such a way as to (usually) destroy the copy protection interference.

The Panny tbc does work line by line. A line tbc could care less about the frame rate. The AVT could care less about lines inside the frames. So why insist on using a tape which requires line correction instead of frame correction, and then blame the full-frame AVT for "not doing anything" to a tape that doesn't have copy protection or frame sync errors? Unless you have a very bad case of whacked-out frame sync (and you would be working with, indeed, a tape far more crappy than the those you've shown so far), you're wasting your time using a full-frame tbc on home-made tapes.

BTW, I've used the same Panny on many retail tapes and noticed that some of those supposedly copy protected tapes didn't need a frame tbc when played via the AG-1980.

Thanks guys. I now see direction with this.

So since the line TBC is off, the AVT is keeping the frame sync timing of a badly distorted tape. So in order to test whether the AVT's TBC is working or not, you need to have playback with no line timing errors. What would it look like if the frame sync timing was off? Is there any way to test whether the AVT's TBC was malfunctioning? Also, does full field TBC = frame synchronizer?

So it looks like if there is any way to see if the AVT's TBC isn't working it's be these samples instead. Are there certain things I can look out for to see if the frame sync timing is off?

Home video
# (1st vid) with AVT TBC & panny TBC
# (2nd vid) without AVT TBC but with panny TBC

Retail video
# (2nd vid) has AVT TBC & panny TBC
# (1st vid) without AVT TBC but with panny TBC

SLP
# has AVT TBC & panny TBC
Don't have a capture of without AVT TBC but with Panny TBC

I wasn't blaming the AVT's TBC. I was just reporting what I saw and was looking for direction. Now I know it was seemingly doing nothing because I wasn't comparing the right samples. Thank you for that. I appreciate all the help I can get.

Be also aware, as you seem to have caught on, that even if one or the other is improving playback, sometime for some tapes a combination of both may not agree. I have had a few tapes where the VCR's TBC was actually causing distortions and interfering with the ES-15's ability to straighten it out.

I only ask those questions as there exists a lot of misunderstanding on how these devices work and affect video. Each time you affect the signal, there is always a tradeoff.

Just saw this trying to figure it out on my end as well. Is the AVT's TBC to correct the jerky movement on the right picture? Does it correct other things as well?

http://youtu.be/i2SgBhszm9Q

Thanks premiumcapture. I appreciate that.

Does that mean your set up is a line TBC (VCR) onto another line TBC (ES-15)? I'm assuming the ES-15 would be a line TBC as it's looking to straighten things out. If so, is there an advantage to using two line TBCs?

Every piece of equipment treats a signal a little differently, the DVD line 'tbc' tend to straighten things out but many of the VCR one's most important feature is noise reduction. Sometimes they work great together, otherwise they conflict, but there is no single recipe or piece of equipment that handles every tape perfectly.

Better examples of severe line sync problem correction using a device with line tbc -vs- no line tbc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMA5aH_olAQ

The example you posted above is moderate line off-sync + severe playback noise (comets). A line tbc doesn't entirely fix those white streaks, noise reduction is part of the correction shown in the earlier link.

Videos for the posts linked below are no longer available, but frame captures are still posted:

Examples of Macrovision distortion, repaired using DV recorders as pass-thru (Panasonic and Toshiba).
These two era 2002-2005 recorders are known to often ignore Macrovision when used as pass-thru tbc's,
because these quality DVD-R's had nominal line-tbc plus some measure of elementary frame sync circuits:
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...=1#post2141384

Examples (Example 1 and Example 2) of screen distortion due to line sync errors, repaired with line-tbc pass thru:
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...=1#post2141386

You can use deVHS and a few other filters in AviSynth to minimize magnetic dropout, but another lesson to be learned here is to throw the word 'perfect' out the window.

Thanks guys!

Hi sanlyn, I was looking more for an example that shows what kind of errors the AVT's TBC would correct. Seemed like the video on the right of the YouTube click I provided had a lot of jerky movement and was wondering if that's what the AVT is for. Still not sure what kind of errors the AVT corrects look like. That's a great video that opened my eyes about line TBC some more. Thanks for the link!

Hi premiumcapture, if the ES-15 is to straighten out lines, would having three devices before the capture card be one too many? Panny TBC -> ES-15 -> AVT-8710?

A frame-level TBC such as the AVT would correct the bright flashing and distortion shown in the dinner table scene from the African Queen (with Bogart in the image).

No. Those are line timing errors within frames. They are fixed with a line tbc.

Different playback or capture devices and methods will display as different effects. Strong pixellation, distortion and rapid bright "flashing" or rapid-fire bright/dark frames accompanied by strong frame hopping and "dancing". The distortion can be as bad as an entire image turned into angular steaks that look like a full-frame version of the head-switching noise at the bottom of VHS frames. You'll also see at least several frames being dropped or repeated by the capture device every few seconds. However, physical damage can often cause problems, but they don't always look like macrovision effects. One of your earlier captures without the AVT has a missing frame and what appears to be two dropped fields (which produced two double-image interlacing effects) that can result from the way capture devices or capture software translates frame timing errors caused by physical damage.

If you see vertical lines, angular lines, or side borders wiggling, don't expect a full-frame TBC to fix it.

Thank you very much sanlyn!

When you say physical damage, do you mean to the VCR or the tape?
I did notice every time I capture regardless of which tape and VCR, there's almost always 1 or 2 dropped frames within the first 15 seconds of every capture. Not sure if that's due to physical damage as it doesn't drop frames or cause as much jitter afterwards (I've captured an hour of it). I also notice the jitter figure next to dropped frames at the bottom of virtualdub become somewhat erratic during that same time frame. Would you know what's causing that? I was hoping the AVT would resolve that but I see it with or without the AVT. Is it the VCR attempting to find proper tracking and inherent in every capture?