Just got my barely used CCD-TRV65 shipped in. As promised, here are the short captures with Edit on and off (Both have AVT in the loop and NR off). Please note the first 4 seconds or so was waiting for the jitter count to die down on virtual dub and 2 seconds or so after is the camcorder looking for better tracking.

CCD-TRV65 Edit On:
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita..._on_NR_off.avi
CCD-TRV65 Edit Off:
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita..._on_NR_off.avi

and for good measure my parent's older DCR-TRV52 (Edit off, with AVT, TBC on, and NR off)
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...R_DCRTRV52.avi

Hi Lordsmurf, if turning Edit on shuts off the TBC and NR, why does it give me the option to turn TBC as well as NR on?

I don't think EDIT mode has any effect on the TBC or DNR setting. The manual simply says "Select ON to minimize picture distortion when editing". I did notice one interesting artifact with these camcorders though. No matter if the TBC or DNR is on or off, there is a small amount of chroma ghosting/trailing, particularly with reds. This even includes Digital-8 camcorders playing back analog tapes. I can provide samples for the OCD, in most cases it isn't noticeable.

I think I had this backwards. The "picture mode" is intraframe (within the frame), while the TBC NR is "interframe" (temporal). But the temporal is very minute, 1-3 frames max.

Thank you NJRoadfan. So we're back to square one. I did read that in the manual but had no idea what it meant (nor see noticeable differences). What kind of distortion does it mean? If it doesn't affect TBC or NR, sounds like it should be turned on in captures?

Thank you for clearing up the intra/inter Lordsmurf. So on the JVC SVHS players it's best to turn EDIT on with TBC for captures (since NORM applies some interframe NR) or does EDIT on only shut off TBC/NR on JVC SVHS decks and not on the Sony camcorders?

Also, is it my imagination or is the barely used CCR-TRV65 better than my parent's DCR-TRV52? Not sure if it's due to marketing/psychological (effect of knowing it's "barely used") but I see there's a difference in color (especially the reds) and the CCR-TRV65 capture is slightly less sharp (msgohan had mentioned the DCR-TRV52 capture was over sharpened and the camera may not be performing optimally). Is this correct or am I just too excited I got a barely used at almost half the price of my first attempted camcorder purchase (had to return two camcorders before this one)?

"Best" is to have both kinds of NR in use. But this only applies to the JVC VCRs, not your situation.
At first, it sounded like it might be comparable. But NJRoadfan has confirmed it's not.

Thank you Lordsmurf. Was asking in case I had to go back and recapture the tapes I played back on the JVC but I'm very happy with those results thanks in big part to you and others on this site.

Yes, calling both "EDIT" really adds to the confusion on top of the vague/limited description. I don't see much of a difference between EDIT turned on/off so perhaps someone who has experience with these camcorders can let us know what the differences are.

Also, can someone confirm I'm right with the slight difference between my CCR-TRV65 and DCR-TRV52? Don't want the price I got it at and seller's marketing ("barely used") cloud my judgement.

There isn't much difference between EDIT on or off -- but I repeat, NOT MUCH BUT ENOUGH. Edit-On looks subtley smoother and cleaner to me, especially if you deinterlace with QTGMC (at "super fast" to avoid most added processing) or use SeparatetFields. If strong interlace combing is removed, you get a better look at what's going on. Edit off has slightly more edge noise, which is odd because the edge noise is a bit sharper but other fine details are smeared or have miniscule artifacts in smooth surfaces. Admitted, by the time you apply some chroma denoising and color and contrast correction, it would be a contest to see who could find a difference in the results. But because this tape is rather low quality to begin with, I'd prefer Edit-On to get all I could from it.

As for your JVC, don't discount the fact that some tapes play better on different machines.

The differences aren't slight. I'm surpirsed you didn't notice that the '52' is still reversing field order and makes frames hop (poor tracking of tape anomalies) in exactly the same frames that were messed up earlier with that camera. It has oversharpening artifacts (halos and hot spots on highlights). Small objects and smooth surfaces have artifacts and odd contour changes. It didn't handle the scene change at all well, the image is distorted on several frames. I don't think the '52' is giving you your money's worth with its tbc: edges are pretty ragged, compared to the other samples.

The CCD-TRV52 (DCR refers to digital recording cameras) is an older circa 1997 camcorder, it completely lacks any TBC or DNR system. Sony overhauled their 8mm lineup for 1998 to what is considered their "best" platform, which the CCD-TRV65 and all the models that followed are based on (InfoLithium batteries, TBC/DNR, "XR" format extension).

I happen to own both a CCD-TRV65 and a Digital-8 DCR-TRV840, their analog Video-8/Hi-8 performance is identical as far as I can tell, that includes the weird chroma artifacts I noted above.

Sorry, that's a typo. It is indeed a DCR as it's a DCR-TRV520 (52 was a typo). It's my parent's old 2nd camcorder and although it was kept in a bag, it looks to be damaged judging by how it produces different video than the CCR-TRV65 I just received.

Thank you sanlyn, as of now I'm still in "capture everything I have" mode so I haven't gotten into the various post capture adjustments/tools/diagnostics such as avisynth. Once captured I'm planning on looking for faq or various pages here to become more familiar and review/utilize your instructions on the previous page. It seems a slight difference from an untrained eye is a big difference from a trained one. I hope to eventually get there. I've added the same footage from the previous as a frame of reference to evaluate the new CCR-TRV65 I just got so yes, the DCR-TRV520 capture should have the same defects. I noticed the portion you've provided 1fps breakdowns was in the beginning startup noise portion of the capture instead of the rest of the tracked footage. Is that the best spot to test for field reversals?

Field reversal wasn't the only problem I mentioned with the other camera. It appears that it has other tracking problems. Look at the scene change in the '520' sample you posted. It's easy enough to load an avi in virtualdub and move the video at a slower rate or a frame at a time. Oversharpening, chroma shift, and other such problems should be more obvious during normal playback. Field reversal itself results in playback stutter.

Thank you Sanlyn, I'll play around with virtualdub prior to going into "capture avi" mode which was all i've used it for thus far. Is the startup noise the best area to see these (i.e. should these errors normally not happen during the startup noise) because of the distorted lines on the top and bottom of the screen?

Wonder if the field reversal has something to do with the onboard DV encoder. The DCR-TRV520 is one of the D-8 camcorders that will stream analog tapes over Firewire. Thing is, field reversal shouldn't happen with analog tapes going directly to an analog output format! Any chroma ghosting or lag could be the artifact I mentioned earlier, but I didn't notice any really from the kid's red shirt. It would be more obvious against a blue or white background.

DV is bottom-field, while pretty much every other kind of capturing is top-field. (Another reason DV is poo to work with.)
Note that analog video doesn't have a specific field order.

I wonder if something is going awry there. Not sure how or where, but that's a good start.

If it was coming in as DV, would WinDV or something similar be able to recognize it?

The best place to look for problems is during normal play. Startup noise will be removed anyway.

I'm curious as to why you have 4.5 seconds of startup noise. Are the video heads running but the tape is not? That creates damage where the heads scrub the tape over and over. The way most people capture is:
- Define the output file, etc., then start the capture.
- Start the tape.
If you have dropped frames during the startup noise, who cares? It won't be in kept the final video.

If you're capturing a specific part of the tape (i.e, not from the beginning), start the tape play and wait until you get a few seconds before the segment that you want, then start the capture. If you get some extra lead-in frames that you don't want, cut them out later.

VirtualDub won't be the only tool you need. Many glitches can't be fixed with VirtualDub. You really need VirtualDub and at least some basic Avisynth for analog glitches. The two samples attached are a quick levels fix and cleanup with Avisynth and some color tweak in VirtualDub. Sample2 has a glitchy frame or two, fixed a bit with ReplaceFramesMC in Avisynth. Sample1 with Edit-on didn't seem to have those two glitchy frames, and I still say Edit-On looks a little better.

Your Sample3 has a lot of problems. The camera needs maintenance. To demonstrate problems that are likely due to the tape itself, as well as poor tracking, and how AVisynth can often work a repair, look at Sample3_Sample3_original_bad_frames_4fps.mp4, attached. This are the opening frames of the scene change in that sample, deinterlaced to show why those frames hop and look smeared when the scene starts. The video runs at 4fps. The short sample plays 3 times in the mp4.

Sample3.mpg is that sample fixed up a bit, including the scene change. Some of this was tweaked in VirtualDub, but you need Avisynth for the frame repairs. You can see the camera's oversharpening effects and ghosting on the date characters.

wow. Thanks sanlyn!! I didn't get an email notification that I had new posts. Once I have everything captured, I'll definitely be learning to pick up how to use avisynth. It's great to see that I can make significant corrections after the capture!

What kind of store should I bring the DCR-TRV520 for repairs? Is this repairable to the point it will play back tapes flawlessly? I wouldn't even know where to start and I'm in NY. There're a lot of places that claim they know what they're doing but oftentimes don't… That's what lead me here to begin with.

As for the start up noise capture, it always takes my rig 5 seconds to get the jitter counter to 0. Also, on most of my tapes, there isn't enough empty space in the beginning to let it play out. Still not comfortable cutting out video without potentially changing the rest or mess up the file for future edits (viritualdub/avisynth/etc). I like to do things once I understand what the implications are.

I'm seeing some strange behavior with my new CCR-TRV65 and I'm hoping it's either tap damage or something similar.

The first thing I've noticed is there's a lot of bright flashes that occur during playback on my CCR-TRV65 that doesn't occur on my DCR-TRV520 (but I see the screen flicker more on the DCR…). Is this just damaged tape or is the CCR-TRV65 damaged as well?
CCR-TRV65 flashing:
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...5_flashing.avi
DCR-TRV520 not flashing:
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...0_flashing.avi

In a few sets of tapes, the CCR-TRV65 won't produce a picture and the audio only produces noise while the DCR-TRV520 will produce both video and audio. Is this what happens when you play Digital8 on the CCR-TRV65? I don't know if this was recorded on Digital8 but then again I don't know what the playback looks like when someone attempts to play Digital8 on a nonDigital8 player. The other thing that makes this a bit more murky for me is that two of the tapes show both VideoHi8 and Digital8 but the one tape that shows the same results only show Hi8. Is this Hi8 tape possibly recorded as Digital8? Is that even possible? If non of these are the reasons, what could be the reason for this error? Is my CCR-TRV65 damaged as well?

CCR-TRV65 playback error:
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...ybackError.avi
DCR-TRV520 playback:
http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...ybackError.avi

This is very frustrating… I just want a camcorder that plays without issues...

The last clip certainly looks like a Digital-8 tape. Playback of tape format is obvious, you will hear the tape transport speed up and there will be a D8 logo on the camera's LCD along with "16-bit" indicating the audio track format. Any time you play an analog tape in the unit, the tape transport will slow down and a logo showing "D8 -> Hi8" will pop up indicating the player is switching modes.

Odd. I got the queue email. There are no mail delivery errors to Gmail.

I don't know what to say lordsmurf. I've just did a search for all things digitalfaq and I see the notification on 4/5 but not 4/6. I did get a notification on 4/6 for a different thread. Even today, I got NJRoadfan's but not yours

Thank you NJRoadfan, I will check the DCR once I get back. Can a non Digital8 tape be recorded as such?

Should the bright flashing clips of the CCR-TRV65 be considered a defect from the camcorder?

The Digital 8 camcorders only record in digital, they can only playback analog tapes. There are no "special" blank tapes, they are all Hi-8 (preferred) or Video-8 cassettes. Later Hi-8 tapes sold by Sony included the D8 logo and recording times, but were otherwise unchanged media.

The CCD-TRV65 problem could be dirty heads. Looks like it isn't playing back a field of video.

You only get one notification per "not visit". So, for example, if NJRoadfan replied, you'd get the notification that the thread has a new reply. If I come and make a reply, and you've not yet visited since the notification, then you won't get another one. Is that what happened?

Also be sure that Gmail is not marking the messages as spam. (If that's happening, then please let me know via PM.)

Anyway, back to the topic:

Digital8 is DV on Hi8 tape. That was yet another Sony proprietary format that failed, like so many others of theirs.

The format lasted from 1999 to 2005 and I believe the final model camcorder was produced to at least 2007. I'd say the format was successful enough that Sony purposely crippled the camcorders over their contemporary MiniDV units. The irony is that Digital8 recordings are more robust than MiniDV tapes due to the larger form factor and metal particle tape.

Wow, didn't know that.

I never really saw D8 in stores. Circuit City was the biggest one to carry video gear in the late 90s and early 2000s. By around 2002, it just seemed to be missing. Even stores like Fry's were clearancing it out before 2005. When I got a DV cameras in 2003, all that Best Buy carried was DV. No other formats.

Video8/Hi8 tapes are definitely better than DV tapes.

I remember being quite upset when Sony unveiled their 1999 camcorder lineup. My parents had just purchased a CCD-TRV65 a month before! NYC area electronics chains always seemed to carry a full line of camcorders and stuff like the high end JVC SVHS decks (6th Ave Electronics, P. C. Richard & Son, and The Wiz comes to mind). Our CCD-TRV65 actually came from a Sony dealer in St. Maartan as prices were quite lower there compared to here. I was very worried at the time that a PAL camcorder might have been purchased... thankfully it was a NTSC model. That island is notorious for using all 3 analog video formats (PAL and SECAM on the French side, NTSC and PAL on the Dutch side).

Hi admin,

I've received a notification on a different thread but not from this one from sanlyn. Does it not send out a second notification if the first wasn't from the same thread?

Thank you NJRoadfan. If it's DV on Digital8, is it better to capture through DV (like firewire and WinDV) as opposed to SVideo and ATI card?

Also, is there a store that still cleans/repairs camcorder heads in NY? If not, is it difficult to do? Is there a guide? I'm willing to do almost anything to get these machines acting right. Thank you.

Camcorder video heads are cleaned the same way one cleans VCR video heads. The major difference is that the video head drum in a camera is usually smaller than a VCR head drum. The video heads are embedded in small openings in the surface of the rotating edge of the video drum. You see a ton of videos on YouTube and articles on the web that advise using (a) cotton swabs, or (b) lens paper, or (c) head cleaning tape.

First, (a) cotton swabs (QTips) should NEVER be used to clean video heads. Not ever. Period. There are no exceptions, despite the number of dunderheads who say it's OK and works "great". All you need is one tiny thread to get hung on a video head and rip the head off, or one tiny thread to get pulled inside the drum. Might happen, might not. If it happens, and it only has to happen once, throw the camera away. End of story.

(b) All lens cleaning papers contain a fibrous paper or paper/plastic or paper/fabric compounds, and usually some waxy stuff to make the lens look polished. Almost all of them leave a fine-film residue on the lens that adds a thin but foggy residue. Pro's don't use lens cleaning paper. They used an old, soft, pure 100% cotton t-shirt. Obviously you won't use that on video heads. Don't clean video heads with lens paper.

(c) head cleaning tapes don't clean anything. They pick up dirt, all right, smearing it all over your tape, which ends up on your rollers and capstan and, eventually, on your video heads again. Many of these cleaning tapes claim to be "only mildly abrasive" Only mildly, no matter how mild, is still abrasive. Period. The last cleaning tape I used was in 2006. It ruined the soft metal heads on my Panasonic VCR. Don't use cleaning tapes.

So,what do you use? For liquid, don't use alcohol. Even the highest-grade alcohols leaves a slightly greasy, alkaline residue. Get genuine video head cleaning fluid from an electronics dealer, or from Amazon. Comes in a small bottle. Not very expensive. Lasts forever. The swab you use to clean video heads is made of a soft chamois material. Get these on Amazon as well. If you do have alcohol around, you can clean your rollers and audio heads with it, but not video heads, and use a clean dry swab as a finishing touch to make sure there's no alcohol residues on the rollers.

YouTube abounds with videos from guys who use cotton swabs to clean everything, despite warnings from pros that cotton swabs are dangerous. Ignore these videos. One material that can be used to clean video heads is plain white (uncolored) printing paper, cut into a small 1/2-inch by 2.5-inch strip and held lightly against the rotating heads. Don't use so-called resume papers, onion skin paper, or that horrible waxy, easy-erase stuff. Plain, smooth, white printing paper (not cheap copy machine paper, which is dusty). Here is a clumsy but revealing video from a guy who's been doing this for years --ignore the sloppy production work on the video and see what he does to clean a camcorder and an old VCR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvBOCkWUlL8

Head cleaning fluid and chamois cleaning swabs are the best bet. Or have a good shop do it, and be certain to ask whether or not they use cleaning tape for this job. If they say yes, run away as quickly as you can.

If you open the camera you might see some areas that are smeared with lubricant of some kind. Often this lubricated area might look dirty or dusty. Leave it alone. If you remove that lubricant, parts that need to slide or slip back and forth won't move freely. When pros clean dirty lubricated areas, they remove it entirely but replace it with new, factory approved lubricant. Better to leave it alone than do it yourself; if it's a little dirty, never fear -- the dirt's stuck there and ain't going anywhere.

Thank you very much sanlyn!! I've found the chamois swabs on Amazon but not the cleaning fluid. Do you know which brand/name they sell on Amazon? Seems like the camcorder on the video has the drum on the top side. Mine are on the bottom. Do I take out the faceplate of the cassette side to clean it? Seems like a tight squeeze opening things up for mistakes.

I've done a search for pro shops in the city. Sounds like most are not trusted (what a surprise). If anyone knows a reputable shop please let me know.

As for Digital8 capture, should I be using winDV for the DV tapes? Is SVideo still ideal?

I've popped open the face plate on the cassette side and i can see the drum but won't be able to have it spin since it'd be at an awkward angle with a tape in there if using the paper method.

I've noticed something odd with my new CCD-TRV65. It seems there're several color markings on top of the drum. Is this normal? Also, which of the ones are lubricated (I can't tell without touching them)

DCR-TRV520 under the hood (which of these to clean and which to not touch?). This is with the tape holder ejected:
Attachment 4535


CCD-TRV65 (view with the tape holder in place):
Attachment 4536

CCD-TRV65 (view with the tape holder ejected):
Attachment 4537

CCD-TRV65 (Are these color markings on top of the drum normal)?
Attachment 4538

The CCD-TRV65 has one thing that sticks out to me, the pinch roller. It should have a black top like the one in the D8 unit. Carefully spin it with your finger, it should not be wobbly or loose and should have no play (shouldn't move up/down on the shaft). Do not attempt to pull on it, just spin it.

This is a COMMON problem with Sony Handycams and would cause weird playback errors as the pinch roller is pretty important.

Hi NJRoadfan, just spun both and they both move the same (doesn't go up or down but moves slightly sideways and rolling with finger). The CCD doesn't have a black top but it does have the same lookin piece but just white instead of black. Wondering if this was previously repaired/touched or if that's how it was made back in 1997 as opposed to 1999/2000 when the DCR was made

Has anyone seen the color markings on the drum like the last picture? Is that normal?

Is WinDV capture better than SVideo/ATI capture card on Digital8 since it's DV on tape?

I'm also wondering which portion of the DCR-TRV520 playback mechanics isn't working right that would produce those kind of playback errors.

Thank you!

What is the head cleaning solution called or does Amazon even sell it? Is there a place in NYC anybody can recommend?

Capture Digital 8 via Firewire, keep it digital. The markings on the drum appear to be normal. My CCD-TRV65 has a black locking nut on the pinch roller, but parts can vary during production runs.

Thank you NJRoadfan!

Would you recommend WinDV and if not, which is better to use for DV capture from Digital8 tapes?

Just need someone to let me know what kind of head cleaning solution I am buying and where I can get it.

I see WinDV recommended most of the time for DV transfer.

Video and audio head cleaning fluids aren't difficult to find: http://www.amazon.com/MG-Chemicals-L...1GRCMD8T6T0RBX
.

Thank you sanlyn. Not sure why but when I did a search on Amazon for "video head cleaning fluid" it didn't pop up (felt like an idiot after seeing your link..). I'll purchase the two items you've specified and clean them. Would you be able to provide arrows as to which is the lubricated one I should avoid? I know what the pinch roller is now and where the video drum (and heads in between are. But not sure what the other parts are located. Also, for the video heads (grooves in the drum), do I pick it with the chamois swabs to clean it or just brush through it like the rest of the drum? Thank you very much!

Yeah, sometimes Amazon search gives me completely unrelated products. I got my cleaner from Markertek several years back, which will tell you how long a small bottle can last.

On almost all video head drums are made up of two parts: the upper video drum that rotates, and the lower video drum that is stationary. The video heads are in tiny slots located at about the middle of the drum's edge surface. First step is to moisten the cleaning swab with fluid. Don't soak it to the point of dripping, or you'll get fluid into those tiny slots that contain the heads. I usually pour a few drops of the fluid into a flat saucer and lightly dip the flat surface of the swab into the fluid. To make sure I don't have excessive fluid, I touch the swab to a piece of plain white paper to absorb any excess (don't use Kleenex for this, or you'll get lint on the swab -- or the soft tissue will stick to the swab, making things worse). Don't let the swab sit around for any length of time -- the fluid is designed to evaporate quickly. In the old days, head cleaning liquid contained Freon for really fast drying. Freon isn't used these days.

Place the wide, flat side of the swab against the edge of the drum so that the swab contacts as much of the upper and lower part of the drum as you can manage. The swab doesn't have to be "straight up", it can approach the drum from one side. You won't need any pressure, just a steady contact. With your free hand or just a finger or two on the upper part of the drum or on the very top-edge, rotate the drum COUNTER-CLOCKWISE a few times. Then remove the swab. The fluid is an efficient cleaner, so you don't have to rotate the drum 10 times or use any pressure to get the job done.

The fluid can be used to clean the roller guides, the rubbery capstan, the audio heads, and the erase head if an erase head is present. The "lubricated areas" are on the chassis surface, not on the rollers themselves, so you don't have to contact those areas. The lubrication, if it can be seen, is usually a greasy smear of silicon gunk or similar lubricant. Don't use a lot of fluid on the rubber capstan -- it should be cleaned when the swab is relatively dry.

Thanks sanlyn!! Unfortunately I've turned the drum clockwise when I was fiddling with it and trying to see how the paper cleaning would work (obviously without it spinning it doesn't do much). It didn't seem like there was any dirt on the drum though.

As for potential servicing someone in NY told me they'd have to ship it out to Chicago to see IF it can be serviced.. Not sure what to do about that.. Still shocked there's not one place in NY that would offer this service..

Give Mack Camera a call, its worth a shot: http://www.mackcam.com/repairs/what-we-repair/

They were able to fix my Sanyo Betamax deck, so something like a Handycam shouldn't be too hard to figure out.

One last ditch effort would be to see if the camcorder "fixes" itself. I've had luck by just taking a tape I don't care about and rewinding and fast forwarding it in the unit a few times. I had problems with the reels binding up, but those symptoms are different from what you are experiencing.

Yeah, sounds like alignment or something like a worn capstan.

But save those cleaning supplies. Whether you keep using other camcorders or eventually get a good VCR, you'll need those cleaners with old tapes.

Hi Sanlyn, just got my supplies and I cleaned out my equipment as per your instructions. The CCD-TRV65 didn't have any dust but some parts of the DCR-TRV520 was filthy. The cleaning didn't correct the bright flashing on the CCR-TRV65 so it unfortunately must be something else. Guess neither of them perform perfectly.

Hi NJRoadfan, is Mac camera your contact that you mention in post #26 below?
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr-...html#post28978
Do they replace capacitors as well on AG-1980? I have one built from Jan 96 it seems. If they're anywhere as good as tgrant photo mentioned here definitely worth stopping by for me for both camcorder and SVHS.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr-...html#post34623

Please let me know. Thanks!!

For capacitors, I have used this guy in the past: http://maccaps.com/

He can handle surface mount parts without a problem, but you will have to remove the board from the VCR and ship it out. Its also best to get an estimate before shipping as the AG-1980 boards do contain quite a bit more capacitors than your typical piece of equipment.