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JVC HM-DSR100U vs. JVC SR-W5U
I borrowed a HM-DSR100U over the weekend for some comparison tests. Videos are uncompressed with no filtering or deinterlacing. Save them to your computer for viewing, do not watch them in browser. Dropbox will stream and add compression if watched in browser.
Each tape is a professional recording. No home movies. Not recorded on cheap home gear (though you wouldn't know it on the last two. Both date to 82 and 83). ------------ Admin Edit -- Note: all files in this thread have been mirrored on our servers, and the links are in post#49. So if the Dropbox links ever go 404, the files are still here on page 3. All members should remember to please attach video clips to posts, not upload them elsewhere. Thanks. ------------ Test A - JVC HM-DSR100U animation test https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/IronGA.avi Turbines https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/powera.avi Power https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/power1a.avi Test B - JVC SR-W5U Animation test https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/IronGB.avi Turbines https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...7/Turbineb.avi Power https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/power1b.avi *the animation samples will be removed at the end of the week. |
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http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1437413154 http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1437413145 http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1437413145 still having issues with my audio track syncing. automatic audio latency determination has the audio delay by 3 to 4 seconds. Fixed is better, but there is still a noticeable delay. |
This was suppose to go on the Capture, Record, Transfer forum.
Could a moderator move the thread? |
Hello.
Some useful tips: I don't think I have to tell you that no one here is going to spend the time to download nearly 3GB of uncompressed AVI video. There are plenty of good lossless compressors around, including huffyuv, Lagarith, and UT Codec. As it is, that much video isn't necessary to see that you have serious line sync errors, really bad dot crawl, and audio sync problems. I tried to check the file size of https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...7/Turbineb.avi. but got a 404 error. If it's a large as the others, I wouldn't have downloaded it anyway. You can capture uncompressed if you wish (i don't know why, perhaps you have other considerations you haven't mentioned), but it's not a problem to losslessly compress capture samples in VirtualDub. You need a line tbc or line tbc pass-thru in the worst way, and the dot crawl is serious with both players. |
I realize the videos have issues. That is part of why the videos were posted in a raw format. So we wouldn't go back and forth about what I might have used to make them look bad. People don't want to believe that high dollar players like these two can output video this ugly.
Also, download them and then watch them. Do not watch them in the browser. Dropbox will try to steam them in browser and add it's own compression. |
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Ummm, no, not for 3GB. Why couldn't you compress them yourself? What's this with watching them in a media player that adds its own compression? last I heard, media players de-compress video to play them, not the other way around. Maybe you've been misled. I think, too, you might misunderstand the nature of the lossless compressors mentioned so often here and which are S.O.P. for working files.
Saw enough to see that the Sr-W5U is the better choice, but you still need a line tbc. Many of the problems should be helped along during capture. That includes a line tbc, or you'll be spending a lot of time with unnecessary work and unsatisfactory results. The two vids I looked at are telecined. The cause of the audio sync problems is debatable, but a frame tbc will certainly help address that, and a line tbc can help as well. Had just enough time to try to rescue some of the animation. Still some work needed on sloppy edge problems. The attached video was inverse telecined in Avisynth, color corrected and denoised in VirtualDub, and re-relecined in TMPGenc Mastering Works (3:2 pulldown). Some of the remaining chroma smear and edge problems could be fixed with either more filtering (you will lose some more detail) or, even better, a cleaner signal via tbc. |
The SR-W5U is going to blow away that DVHS deck. The JVC HM-DSR100U is a first generation SD-only DVHS deck and lacks the Line TBC/DNR found in the later HD capable models. For all intents and purposes, its a standard SVHS playback deck.
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the line tbc in the W5U is, well, seems a bit weak, but that could point to a need for a little maintenance. Still, eons ahead of the other player. I'm going almost 100% by the animation, though, since the othr vid was still downloading when I finished playing with the anime. On the other hand, maybe the anime was just "made" that way (many of them are) or was a 2nd gen copy.
The W5U all the way, then. |
Thanks for the samples! Guess my ISP will be charging me overages for data usage this month.
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That Y/C crosstalk (what sanlyn called dot crawl) is atrocious. I think your S-Video cable is faulty. If you used the same cable for the SR-W5U, I guess the HM-DSR100U unit's S-Video output is busted. Try a capture with composite. Does the SR-W5U have sharpness/picture controls you can alter so that the edges of the Iron Giant sample look less processed? The product sheet describes "emphasis" that is active in both HD and SD modes, but doesn't say whether you can disable it. (It also doesn't specify whether it's active in normal tape playback or only the special SD component format.) I'm surprised by how conservative the luma noise reduction is. I had to go frame-by-frame before I could see any motion trails, and even then it's still at crazy-person nitpicking levels. The chroma NR is more aggressive though, with some visible trailing during playback and I count about 2 frames of ghosts at each scene change. I just had a look back at your first post here. I hate that you're using such a prized unit to transfer freaking old company training videos. :eek::cry: |
Yep, chroma trails. That's the term I was looking for! CamcorderColorDenoise cleaned some of it in the animation. Dot crawl isn't so bad with the W5U, but any sharpening later will make it more annoying if it isn't addressed. At least it's not the other player.
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...secondtest.avi
I made that with compression earlier in the week. It is from a laserdisk player. Captured through composite. Used Lagarith. Still having audio syncing problems. I've had audio problems with everything I record. Everything goes through the ATI All in wonder 600 USB dongle. |
When I said "try a capture with composite" that was specifically directed toward the HM-DSR100U, to troubleshoot where the Y/C crosstalk is originating. But I guess you no longer have it.
Can you tell us whether or not the exact same S-Video cable was used for both the HM-DSR100U and the SR-W5U captures? The frame rate of the LD sample is wrong. I'm guessing you used "Sync video to audio by adjusting video timing" for that one. Do you want comments of the video quality of this sample? EDIT: The VirtualDub Capture Timing Options I currently use are shown here. I've also used some different settings at other times. Setting these correctly for your device is key to maintaining audio sync. |
same S video cable. Fancy Sony branded cable.
I hooked up an avt 8710 yesterday, and I think it is defective. Composite just doesn't work. S Video is in black and white and the controls don't seem to do anything. I got it from an ebay vendor, so no return policy :/ I ordered a 2 new s video cables and a new avt 8710 from B&H. *Fingers crossed* Maybe that will help. |
All retail s-video cables are very much alike, especially the cheapies. On the other hand, there are high-end s-video cables from Audioquest and Cardas, etc., that are ridiculously priced (would you believe one at $1200 per meter? ? ?) and no better than generic cables from Home Depot. Most are stranded-core units with poor insulation and crummy connectors, have a lot of transmission noise and uneven impedance characteristics, noisy reds (low impedance) and color mottling, and give a relatively softened image or bristling edges.
The cleanest throughput and reliability I've found so far are these: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/svideo/index.htm. |
More tests on the JVC SR-W5U
Used Lagarith with the same settings for this one https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/giant3.avi Used Lagarith with msgohan timing settings for this one. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4135937/giant4.avi I also moved the computer and cables around a little just in case something was picking up something from something else. syncing issues seem to have improved with both methods. I did not post the one that I deinterlaced and ran through 2 other filters as the file was 2 gb. |
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Much better audio. The dot crawl (okay, the y/c crosstalk) is pretty obvious. Probably not too tough to clean up, along with the excessive combing. I don't know what the player does to analog video, but it almost looks like noisy analog-to-DV. Not a disaster, though. |
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Other than the glitches previously noted, the last two samples are a lot more workable than the early ones. Both animations look a little grungy with a ton of slithery low-level noise during camera motion (no surprise, folks, this is VHS!). Maybe the player's sharpening is making noise and rough edges tougher than they ought to be, but I managed to work on giant_3. It was inverse telecined, filtered, color corrected (the darks are on the edge of crushing and have almost no visible details in the original). All the caps seem to have oversaturated reds that exceed RGB 255. Re-telecined with 3:2 soft pulldown, DVD compliant.
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No matter what the seller claims, you should be covered by eBay's Money Back Guarantee as long as you file within the time limit. They tend to side with the buyer (many legit sellers would say too much so). Even if they decide against you, you can still file a chargeback with your credit card company if that's how you funded the payment. That's one reason PayPal always tries to persuade you to use a bank account to add funds to your account, instead: they're out the cash when a chargeback happens and have to try to extract it from the seller. The chroma ghosting in the samples is driving me nuts. And the small snowflakes seem to have trails from the NR too. After I had praised the lack of luma trails before! If you can, try the ATI 600 on a different computer. You shouldn't be getting all those dropped frames at the start of the capture. It's probably related to the audio sync issue. |
More tests and comparisons
cheap monoprice cables http://www.monoprice.com/Product?p_i...seq=1&format=2 without avt-8710 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...pricenotbs.avi With avt-8710 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...nopricetbs.avi with bhphotovideo Pearstone PEPCSVSV10 - Gold Series Premium S-Video without avt-8710 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20no%20tbs.avi with avt-8710 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...ries%20AVI.avi All videos taken with JVC SR-W5U and Lagarith |
Not sure what you're trying to accomplish here. Each "comparison" is from a different video, and each of those videos have their own pros and cons. So in many respects there's no conclusive way to determine if AVT or no-AVT affects video A, B, C, or D. They're all different.
S-video doesn't carry audio, if that's what you're testing. The two you mention are wires I've encountered in the past. They're generic stranded-core material and are all pretty much alike. I tried all of them over the years. I use these: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/svideo/index.htm. Audio cables, while they do differ in quality, don't affect audio sync either. Generally the skinny OEM cables you get with most hardware players is shrill and fuzzy. I use 1694A's, pictured on the lower part of this page: http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/audio/index.htm. Have also used the heavier insulated 1695A's, offered elsewhere. The top section of the page features Canare cables -- a cheaper cop out IMO, with a relatively dull sound and inferior dynamics. But that still doesn't affect audio sync. Earlier you mentioned you've been deinterlacing these videos. The videos seen so far are all telecined, not interlaced. Meaning that they are film-based, progressive video with hard coded 3:2 pulldown. |
If a AVT is so subtle that an observer can't tell it is on without comparing the exact same footage, why use one?
I'm trying to figure out which combination of svideo cable and AVT produces the best picture and removes the y/c crosstalk. After I have a cable and AVT that removes the y/c crosstalk, I will borrow the JVC HM-DSR100U for another comparison. I'm not testing audio. I think the syncing issues are in the software settings. Not the cables or player. "Earlier you mentioned you've been deinterlacing these videos. The videos seen so far are all telecined, not interlaced. Meaning that they are film-based, progressive video with hard coded 3:2 pulldown." Nothing posted in this thread has been deinterlaced. It has been specifically stated that I have not posted any deinterlaced files. The first post consist of raw captured avi files. The rest are captured with just Lagarith. |
No one said that you posted deintelaced videos. You simply stated earlier that you had deinterlaced some of your movies. The caution is to be careful about deinterlacing telecined video. None of the samples you've posted so far is standard interlace.
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s-video cables don't "remove" crossstalk. Luma and chroma are already separated before they enter the cable. Sometimes the output device doesn't always do a clean job of separating y and uv. The cable won't fix that. It's usually handled by y/c comb filters, not wires. Some of your samples have bad combing and aliasing effects. That's not crosstalk. That's just production or playback problems. |
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I think a certain amount of rainbowing and dot crawl are inherent to VHS. Some time ago I looked at a diagram that showed the chroma information partly overlaps with the band where the luma is recorded on the tape, regardless of any S-Video cabling. So it's limited to particular frequencies. Assuming I understood the diagram properly.
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That same luma-chroma overlay can also occur during playback with sloppy y-c separation, which I've seen in a number of players.
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As it is, there's what looks like old fashioned dot crawl in the right borders of the samples. Likely a production problem, because it doesn't appear in every shot. IMO opinion it looks like you're using the better player. It's up to you, but I don't think the DSR1000 can compete with the unit you used for the last 4 samples. That border stuff 's a little glitch that's visible, and better fixed by cropping off and replacing the dirty border. |
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Compare Gold Series AVI frames 569 and 570, where I assume you used the tbc. Remnants of the boy's hands and other colors in frame 569 appear ghosted in frame 570: Gold Series AVi - frame 569: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1438609604 Gold Series Avi - frame 570: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1438609654 Neither a change of tbc nor a change of cable affrects this problem. Compare non-AVT "Gold Series no tbs" frames 441 and 442, where ghost images from the man's clothing and other objects in previous frame 441 appear in frame 442: Gold Series no tbs - frame 441: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1438609818 Gold Series no tbs - frame 442: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1438609898 Also note the black dots along the right borders of all these images, hwich appears in your oldedr posts, the newer posts, and almost all frames with or without a tbc (these are 2X blowups of a proportions of the right-hand border from each of the above images): http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1438610033 The dots would appear to be either placed there in production or is maybe characteristic of the player. IF this happens on all tapes in that player, it's the player. Dot crawl doesn't appear in other parts of the frames. In any case, the tbc has no effect on either these problems. Chroma lag or ghosting is often an effect from aggressive chroma denoising, and can be a mastering problem in the source. Only way to tell is to play other tapes and/or use other players. Offhand I'd say the tape was created with those problems, as we see a lot of tapes that have that have these glitches, even retail jobs. |
It might be an issue with the player. I tested 4 different tapes from different years and I see similar results of varying degrees. Would damaged or dirty heads cause this? When I received the player it would not play tapes coherently. I had to clean the heads 3 or 4 times before it would play anything correctly.
for the sake of discussion, the other 4 clips. Same player, through the AVT, with Lagarith https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../RoboTest1.avi https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...animetest1.avi https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...storyTest1.avi https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...storyTest2.avi |
Chroma ghosting is visible on all 3 color clips. You won't see it on the black and white clip unless you have transitions between grayscale and tinted segments (because luma and chroma are stored separately in YUV). The monochrome clip demonstrates that the temporal carryover is in chroma, not luma. The monochome clip does have mild magenta rainbows.
There's no magic in detecting these effects. Mount a video in VirtualDub and use the scroll controls to slow the video or watch frame by frame. Scene transitions are the easiest places to see these effects. |
borrowed a different vcr and purchased some bluejean cables for some more comparisons
All videos use Lagarith, bluejean svideo cables, and AVT JVC SR-V10U https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../IronTest1.avi https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...PowerTest1.avi JVC SR-W5U https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../irontest2.avi https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...PowerTest2.avi Also, some very simple scripting in avisynth Code:
AVISource("D:\Turbine2.avi") https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...rbineIVTC1.avi Code:
AVISource("D:\irontest.avi")https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...rbineIVTC2.avi IMO, the issues discussed so far are in the animated tape. I'm seeing the discussed issues on both players with better cables and a tbc. I think the second inverse telecined script works better than the first. I question if the training tapes were done on film and need inverse telecined. I'm still seeing issues around mouths and hands after inverse telecined. The JVC SR-V10U has darker playback and has more trouble with older tapes. |
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Would it be possible to share the script you used in avisynth and the filters you used in virtualdub? Were the filters some of the ones that come in the forum download version of virtualdub? |
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I didn't post the scripts and VirtualDub settings earlier because (a) it took some real effort to clean up and color correct the clips. The noise and color aren't your fault, the tape is just a nightmare (welcome to VHS LOL!). And (b) I didn't think you'd go through all the trouble, but I'm used to it with some of my horrible tapes. The attached mpg is a new one. So here goes.... I used two scripts, an "A" script for the first 27 frames of the clip, and a "B" script for the rest of it. Like a lot of VHS issues, the first scene was so out of whack it looked like something from a different tape. No surprise, as I say. The "AB" script joins the two segments. Script "A" (first scene): Code:
Import("Drive:\Avisynth 2.5\plugins\HQdering.avs")Script "B" for the second segment: Code:
Import("Drive:\Avisynth 2.5\plugins\HQdering.avs")The "AB" script joins the two segments and doe final cleanup. No VDub filters were used. Saved as "IronGB_AB" with Lagarith YV12. Code:
vidA=AviSource("Drive:\path\to\IronGB_00A.avi").Trim(0,27) |
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The SVR-10U and SR-W5U Hogarth clips use an unusual method to get to 29.97fps. They appear to be 25fps PAL film transfers with duplicate frames, then 2:2 blends applied for NTSC. They're a combo of dupes and blended frames. Consequently, you could use regular TIVTC to restore the film speed, or you could deinterlace first and use SRestore(frate=23.976) to get the same thing. It works here, but it might not work on other videos. I'd stick with TIVTC.
I'm not sure what your scripts were designed for, but it's been a long time since I saw anyone use Telecide, which has been replaced by TIVTC. I don't know what TDecimate(mode=1) was to accomplish; it seemed to work here (I haven't looked at every frame), but it's the long way around and is usually used for 15fps anime. All of the animation clips you posted were telecined or dupe-blended. The scripts won't work on the "power" videos. They're not telecined, they're interlaced. And not interlaced very well, either, with a lot of line twitter and buzzy edges. They look like either DV originals recorded to tape, or just sloppy production. I haven't had time to get into them yet. I thought the SRV-10U samples looked cleaner. The W5U oversharpens, oversaturates (especially red), and seems to have more chroma smear than the SR-V10U. Unfortunately the 10U can't be used for long-play tapes. The BJC cable seems to have cleaner color and good contrast without trying to blow out highlights. The difference over cheapo or OEM cables is subtle, but after a while you'll see what I mean. The two "Iron" clips and one of the power clips played with bad audio sync. I corrected sync in the attached "Iron" videos. The script for: "Iron1_SRV10U": Code:
AviSource("Drive"\oath\to\irontest1.avi")The script for "Iron2_W5U.mpg": Code:
AviSource("Drive:\path\to\irontest2.avi")-- merged -- Oops!!! There's a typo in the second script posted above for "Iron2_w5U". Sorry. Stayed up too late. Quote:
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Hi sanlyn
LSFmod(strength=50,edgemode=2) LSF = LimitedSharpenFaster of Didée ? RemoveGrain V1.0 or V0.9 PR? either ... or... see screen |
LSFmod is an update of LimitedSharpenmFaster. I use both versions. Found here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...dsr100u-2.html. LSFMod has settings that emulate the old version.
I use Avisynth 2.6 and have both RemoveGrain v1.0b and the newer RGTools together in my plugins. Have had no problems. LSFMod requires some support files, listed on the web page link. GradFun2Dbmod can use either version of RemoveGrain, but as I say I have both versions installed. |
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'M Just a little dated Quote:
Avisynth 2.6 I have, actually I RGtools and RemoveGrain v1.0 [2007] With a test film I've applied your script execution course in VDub. Approximately 5fps ... is too slow for me. I now try with the YUV curve in Edius to get an equally good result. Of the 3 versions DeHalo_alpha_MT.avsi DeHalo_alpha_MT2.avsi DeHalo_alpha_cs.avsi I use the "MT" version. DeHalo_alpha_MT (rx = 2.5) is a compromise, it makes it more one sees strong Blur Here I actually only interlaced material. TGMC filters only when the film is in progressive, then go back again to interlaced. |
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The video was input to the encoder as progressive 23.976 fps. The encoder applied 2:3 pulldown flags for proper frame rate 29.97 fps during playback. Original script posted: Code:
AviSource("Drive"\oath\to\irontest1.avi")Code:
Video |
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Since I have to use first TGMC for filtering in Avisynth. ..deutsch to English is a horror. Quote:
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For example, a cutout Code:
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)Then, the film is processed in Edius more ... YUV curve .... etc |
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Optimist
I have here Promptly professional 9 Luckily have your one big serving of humor :D |
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