Panasonic 1980P noise patterns?
 

I purchased a Panasonic 1980P off of the DigitalFAQ marketplace from a guy that bought it direct from TGrantPhoto (I have the original invoice). He bought the VCR in the summer of 2018, finished his capture project (about 100 tapes) and sold it to me in January 2020 (a year ago).

Due to factors beyond my control, I was only able to start my capture project now. I connected the VCR last night and despite doing some research, I am having problems.

I’ve uploaded three videos to YouTube from three different tapes. One is a S-VHS demo tape. Not a commercial tape, but something someone put together. Another one from an old, used commercial VHS tape that doesn't look dirty or anything. Actually it looks like it's in great, physical condition. And the last one is a brand new commercial VHS tape that I just unsealed last night.

SVHS: https://youtu.be/ZrPHS3zRkfo
Old VHS: https://youtu.be/ePfvnRuGFU8
Brand new VHS: https://youtu.be/VrISvolL1yc

One thing you can't help notice is that the issue seems to be the worse on the VHS tapes, with the used tape being the absolute worst.

Please view the YouTube Videos in 4K or 1080p quality. Of course the original capture was done in SD, but I upconverted to 4K so that YouTube compression wouldn’t smear the details too much.

I have the Panasonic 1980P set to “NOR” playback. I set the TBC on and off, neither made any difference. I manually adjusted the tracking, but it didn’t improve the picture. The recordings on YouTube were done letting the VCR autotrack (pressing the + and – buttons simultaneously) which seemed to give the best results. I have not tried cleaning the heads, yet. Based on what I am reading, I’m assuming the issue with the heads, but I’m surprised a guy on here would sell me the VCR that he said was in "great condition" and it outputs such a poor video like that. I am assuming I'm doing something wrong, the cables are bad, etc. for now.

My workflow is the 1980P-> Matrox MX02 Mini via a S-Video Y/C breakout cable.

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated.

The noise pattern is on the S-VHS tape too, it is just less noticeable, I would try to clean the video heads just to be certain but it might be something related to bad capacitors.

I would send those links plus a copy of the receipt to TGrant. He can probably best identify the potential culprits, and likely he has records on what caps were previously replaced to further narrow it down.

No idea, but hopefully he would strike you a deal on a repair since it was one of his decks to begin with.

Horror stories like this are why I am so gun-shy about pulling the trigger on a 1980P. I'd love to see what my tapes look like on it but I don't really want the hassle of owning one.

I wrote to TGrant and he thinks it's some sort of ground loop problem or something to do with some of the power circuits of the VCR. He told me to hook the VCR up directly to a tv, no capture card, no TBC, to see if it's the VCR and rule out the ground loop problem. I can do that tomorrow after I get a tv with analog inputs.

The advice of "plug it in from time to time" doesn't hold water. :no2:

We've lost all of our AG-1980P decks in 2020, and that includes my personal decks. Some were plugged in, some were on reserve status. Right now, we can't even accept certain VHS transfer projects, and I can't do my hobby projects as I had scheduled for this cold stay-at-home winter. I've not been in a good mood lately, as some may have noticed (orsetto and I commiserated on the 1980 at VH, that was a fun diatribe, quite cathartic for me).

That included 2 decks previously fixed by TGrant (2018), and 1 by deter (2017). I expected a then-$300/400+ repair to last a hell of lot longer than just a couple of years. I've had good recent conversations with deter, he's adjusted his repair methods in recent years, for this very reason, and he should be in possession of my two decks soon.

I'm actually becoming convinced that TGrant's repair work was (maybe still is?) temporary/shoddy, as he appears to ONLY swap out bad caps. Well, guess what? The "good" caps are also bad caps, either garbage from the industrial espionage, or just being plain damned old 15-20+ year part that are known/expected to fail.

I also didn't like Tom's attitude last year, where our emailed question about my AG-1980 stuck tape issue was met with (paraphrased) "I don't know, I can't guess, box it up and send it here for inspection" ($$$). That's completely contrary to what I've been doing online for 25 years now (helping others with video), and contrary to the spirit of this site (and all the information it contains). Even more ironically, a guide on his site showed me how to remove the tape from the 1980 -- though only after some advice by helpful members here, as the guide was somewhat incomplete for the issue, as you'll see in that thread. But I still have no idea what caused the problem. As a supposed AG-1980 expert, I would have expected him to a least have some guesses on what could be the issue, and costs that some of the fixes may entail. After a few more weeks of bad REW slack issues (and 4 total eaten tape incidents), it now completely refuses tapes. Boat anchor, door stop.

I didn't want to make this discontent public, but you're not the first person to have a problem with a deck previously repaired/refurb'd by others. I cannot remain quiet any longer. I've seen some others in very recent times. We may have another timebomb cap that was "fine" at the time of repair, not properly swapped (again, age, espionage) during the refurb. It's the early/mid 2010s all over again.

I can't keep paying now-$500 to re-refurb a Panasonic unit every few years. That's just not reasonable.

When I refurb my JVC decks, TBCs, etc, my goal is to make those last another 10 years. I also want my refurb'd units to look and act like new. I don't halfass anything, and you get the sort of gear that I'd use for myself. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that same treatment in return. (If I could repair the AG-1980 myself, I would. But I can't.)

Fear of AG-1980 deck ownership is quite founded, these things are money pits. As deter recently put it, any slight off variance in power (ie, the caps) on a 1980 decks causes all hell to break loose. These are amazing decks when working, but getting them to work, and stay working, is a battle (that you often lose).

For the record, smashing one of my decks with a hammer (or run it over with the car, or shoot it) is still tempting. :devil:

I never liked Panasonic VCR's, I use to watch 12voltvids complain about them being crap and I read a lot of horror stories about the power supply and video processing capacitors, here is a demonstration of before and after replacing the caps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ_Ruwmes04

Update:

Good news: After a lot of trouble, I managed to get my hands on a tv that accepts S-Video input and when I connect the 1980P direct to the tv via S-Video, the noise is gone! So the 1980P is ok, I think.

Bad news: I'm not sure what's the problem when I try to capture via S-Video into the Matrox MC02 PCI-E. TGrant suggested it's a video hum problem. I connected everything to a single power strip going into the wall, and it made no difference.

Obviously, it could be the Matrox MXO2. I tried it in a different, barebones computer and still the same noise problem. I don't have another capture card atm, so I'm not sure what to do. I guess I should buy another capture card? Before I do that, is there anything else to try? Could it be the cables? There is one S-video Y/C breakout cable that I only have one of that's going into the Matrox. Could a bad cable give that kind of noise pattern?

It could well possibly be the Y/C S-Video cable grounding issue, Get another one before you replace the capture card. Also the Y and C negatives should not be grounded to the sleeve of the S-Video end I believe, check to make sure there is no continuity between the sleeves of the BNC ends and sleeve of the S-Video end.

Is your outlet properly grounded? Can you try and move the whole shebang to a different room or different location just to rule out electrical issues at that location?

Glad it's not the 1980P capacitors!

So I was looking around for another analog video source and I found an old ACE video converter I bought like 20 years ago.

http://www.gthelectronics.com/controlc.htm

Anyway, I used it to generate color bars, outputted S-Video and did a straight swap out of the 1980P with the ACE...and the Matrox card loved it. Looked great, no issues.

https://youtu.be/z0NGznOXsJU

Everything was the same. Same cables. Same computer, I plugged it into the same power strip. Only difference was the 1980P vs the ACE. So what does that mean? Something wrong with the 1980P? Or could it still be some grounding issue? Or does a color bar test pattern not really a good test for the issue I am experiencing?

Analog video gonna analog video. There are very few hard and fast rules!

Not familiar with the ACE, but I assume it has inputs? What happens if you pass the signal from the 1980P through it and then into the Matrox?

Also, have you tried adjusting settings on the 1980P? First thing to try turning off is its TBC. Also try to put it in Edit mode. Does that make any difference?

Edit: I still think it's worth double-checking that your ground connection is good. Is your outlet 3-prong? Some power strip/surge protectors will light up an LED when you have a ground fault.

I just tried outputting the ACE color bars into the 1980P and then out to the Matrox - Got nice clean color bars. So it seems like an issue with the 1980P playing tapes? Also, it's interesting that the noise was different for the different tapes.

In summary:

• 1980P (S-video) -> analog TV . Good image.
• ACE color bar pattern (S-video Y/C breakout) -> Matrox. Good image.
• 1980P (S-video Y/C breakout) -> Matrox. Got the noisy image in the first post.
• 1980P (S-video) -> ACE (S-video Y/C breakout) -> Matrox. Same noisy image like in the first post.
• 1980P (S-video) -> green AVT 8710 I bought off LordSmurf (S-video Y/C breakout) -> Matrox. Same noisy image like in the first post.
• ACE (S-video) -> 1980P (S-video Y/C breakout) -> Matrox. Good image.

In the cases where there were issues, I tried turned the 1980P TBC on/off and also tried switching between NOR and EDIT. Made no noticeable difference. Always the same noisy image like in the first post.

For grins, try using composite instead of S-video for the whole chain.

I know I keep mentioning this but haven't seen a response from you on the ground situation at the electrical outlet you're using.

Probably should try a different capture card before you determine it's the VCR.

I can't use composite for two reasons -> the connectors are BNC on the 1980P and I don't have that cable AND the matrox doesn't accept composite. Only S-video (via breakout cable), component and HDMI.

As for the grounding issue, I'll be honest and I don't totally understand it. What I did do was a) make sure everything was plugged into the same power strip that went into an outlet, and 2) change to a different outlet in the room. I did not change to another room only because of the hassle involved moving all the equipment around and the wife already is getting on my case about not helping her with our three kids (two of them still in diapers). I will move the equipment to another room if that's really something worth trying, though.

That has to be one hell of a ground loop to generate that strong of a noise pattern. Like being under a large power pole or cell tower, or having a microwave running at all times. The only time I've see something that bad, due to power, was if the microwave was on, and I had something directly into the wall plug.

Noting that VCRs/TBCs/etc should never be directly into wall power, and always be on a UPS.

That ACE is a lousy device, so I'm amused that it's finally useful at something!

The AG-1980P is a BNC for composite. You can buy adapters for a few bucks off eBay/Amazon, or I'll just give you one if you're getting that other something we're discussing in PMs.

Moving to another room is not likely to solve anything.

Just tried plugging everything into a UPS.
Same problem.

I'm going to ask a dumb question. Would using something like this:
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Project-Source-15-Amp-2-Wire-Single-to-Single-Gray-Adapter/3772899
Fix the grounding issues or make it worse?

No, that adapter will make it worse, if it does anything at all.

BTW, be sure to re-read my last post, I edited it after 1st posting.

Since this happens only when playing a tape I'm starting to think this is an open ground between the VCR's chassis and the last piece in the chain which is the capture card, Can you take a single wire like a speaker wire and connect the back of the VCR's chassis to any metallic ground on the capture card, Make sure the card is connected directly to the VCR with no other pieces in between, If the noise persists this indicates a problem in the VCR, TV's have strong shielding and can be immune to such noise. Alternatively, check to make sure the ground brush on top of the video drum (if equipped) is clean and firmly making the connection.

I'm not totally sure I did this right. First of all, I don't have any speaker wire. So I used a 3.5mm audio cable. I taped it to the back of the vcr so that the metallic end was touching one of the screws on the back. Then a ran the other metallic end all over the top, back and side of the Matrox chassis. No change in the picture. Still noisy. Did I do this right?

I have no idea how to do this, unfortunately.

The second one requires removing the VCR's top cover, At this point you may have to have the VCR checked by someone who knows how to do the basic VCR troubleshooting. You can always sell it as is and start all over again, I know it sucks but it is what it is.