New template, new sample
 

Here's a teaser of the next generation template.

I'm going to split the templates it two sections.
The current 352x480 and the new XVCD 704x480 ( KVCDPlus 8) )
Take a look and feel free to comment right here in this thread :D

http://www.kvcd.net/kvcdplus.mpg

27 seconds, 2.35MB

And yes, I was able to fit the complete "Matrix" ( without final credits ) at that resolution :lol:

I'm still tweaking and doing some final encodes, but the quality of the sample tells it all!
It's "Near DVD quality" and leaves SVCD like the song "Dust in the wind" :lol: . You be the judge :wink:

Also, it's more compatible than 352x480, as it's the standard XVCD resolution for MPEG-1 stills.
I should have a final template posted no later than tomorrow.

And this one plays back with Windows Media Player, PowerDVD, WinDVD, etc.

Enjoy,
kwag

wow, thats excellent quailty kwag :D u da man, was ur original file the matrix a normal mpg file?

It's from my own DVD.

New Template
 

Thank, my player just hates 340X480. Is this a Great place or what???


Kwag.....you da Man...... :wink:

I must admit it looks damn good, as good as some of the SBC DivX's that I've seen. One question do macro blocks spoil the image in some of the more intense high motion scenes. Because at the kind of quality that was produced in the sample it might be worth upping the bit rate and splitting the file in two to keep the same quality in those high motion scenes.

kVCD Plus huh... i like the idea KWAG, but is this actually aimed to fit on 1 CD? thats a pretty crazy feat to conquer. getting a little greedy are we? heheh.

i took a gander at the sample clip and liked what i saw, but i see a lot of potential for increasing macroblocks. in regards to compatibiliy issues, this sole purpose makes complete sense.

good luck once again my man. keep amazing us and we'll have to make you a trophy. i pretty FRICKIN big one!

How common is it for a DVD player to accept this xvcd resolution (704x480)? Obviously, I'll just have to try it and find out, but is it common to support this res? My player seems to have no trouble with 352x480, so I'm very excited at the possibility of full xvcd resolution (even if it no longer fits on one cdr... though if it does... muahahhahah).

My dvd player supports 352x480, do you think it will support 704x480? I also have another question. I heard from someone that if I wanted the best quality to just convert with the same resolution as the source file
(ex. 353x272). Is this true, because I tried it and the picture was great but it was pushed up to the very top of my TV screen and the bottom of the tv screen had the last frame of the movie but all scrambled. What was the deal with that? Also, I used the bitrate given to me with the bitrate calculator.


Keep up the good work Kwag. 8)

Here's a sample cut from the full encode of a worse case scenario.

There are some macro, or micro blocks I would say :wink:, if you watch closely in your monitor, or pause your player in some parts.

Viewed normally, the high speed action scene and flying stuff just blend with the picture, and unless you're focused at trying to see blocks you won't notice them.

Watched in a TV, there's hardly any visible blocks.

Here it is:
http://www.kvcd.net/kvcdplus2.mpg
About 2.8MB, 15 seconds. Very high action scene.

Enjoy,
kwag

Almost every DVD player that supports VCD's ( and XVCD's ) should play 704x480.

That's because most players support 352x240(288) mpeg video AND 704x480(576) mpeg stills.

So we're putting the "stills" in motion :lol:

kwag

WOW 8O ....I'm a newbie who discovered VCD over this past Memorial Day weekend. Kwag, I just wanted to say that I am so glad that I came across your site. You are DA MAN! I used cladDVD XP and TMPEGEnc with your template to copy and encode a concert DVD that I borrowed from a friend and it came out to 783MB! And the quality is very acceptable at 352 x 480! Then you put out another template on Monday and when I tried it on the same movie, it came out to 1 GB. I'm not sure if I've done something wrong? Anyway, I can't wait to get this new template that you are working on! Good Luck! and THANKS! :D

hi kwag,

when I download the sample of your new template my computer crashes (I think the Quicktime thing isnt working for me). Is there anyway you can upload the sample mpeg like the ones on the main page?

thanks
rendalunit

Just "Right click" on the sample link and "Save as".

kwag

I right clicked on "save link as" and the download began- I can't wait for your new template because the sample looked superior! It also played great on my dvd player (sony dvp-nc600)

thanks!

I'll post it in about an hour. With a clear BETA name on it :lol:
Just so everyone tries it, and then we all tweak it for max quality.min size :wink:

kwag

The first 704x480 BETA template ( KVCDx2 ) is posted in the main page left panel.
http://www.kvcd.net

Only the NTSC is posted, but you guys know what to do for PAL 8)
When we iron it out, both NTSC and PAL will be posted

Have fun, and I want some feedback. Good or bad :wink:
Let's have a ball tweaking it :D

kwag

Well I've just watched the high motion scene, and I have to say "Damn I'm impressed." Especially considering the bitrate used. I think I'm going to dig out a couple of my Jet Li films and try the template on some of the high motion scenes in them and do a comparison.
Considering the original limitations of the MPEG format as a whole and the limit of an 80 min CD I think you deserve a heart felt pat on the back.
Kudos man, good work.

Kwag, I'm 40% done encoding "the Matrix" with the new 704x480 temp. and it's looking like the final file size is going to be about 600mb 8O I'm also encoding "Amadeus" and it also looks like the file size will be small (they're both kind of dark (the brightness) movies. Twice the resolution and smaller file sizes is almost too good to be true :D

hmm
 

So I liked what I seen in that example especailly as if 120mins of that film where made then it would only be about 600mbs!!(i worked that out) And since I have 790mbs to play about with its time to up the bitrate!!!

pros:
fucking brilliant
good quailty
1 cd!

cons:
Lots of picture detail lost (and the fact its mpeg1 dosn't help either)
gt convert to pal res and framerate(may lose bitrate)
That clip was extremely wide(mightend fare so well with fullscreen)

Soloution:
First I am going to convert it to brilaint old pal standards anyhow, next I am going to up bitrate a lot as I will need it for less widescreened movies(theres loads of spare space anyhow so I shouldn't have to worry! 190mbs!) since most films are under 120 mins I might be okay space wise.

If I only uped the bitrate a little to compensate for less widescrened movies and highier res(720x576) and highier framerate(25fps) will I still get 120mins to a cd. A similar pal non-widescreen of this templet may not be possible.

p.s. Any chance for mpg2 as t hate the look of mpeg 1, very dull and lifeless.

Baker

Chee Weez rendalunit, me too :lol: :lol:
I'm at 47% and the file size is 336MB 8O

The sample I posted was encoded with the current parameters, but I hadn't tried the complete movie yet!.

Let's see if our results are the same when we get done. I am using an AviSynth script with TemporalSmoother(1,2). The same AviSynth script I used for the sample.

We know how it's going to look, because that's the same parameters I used to create the sample.

If anyone is reading this, and wants to fit the movie in 2 CD-R's with full blast DVD like quality, go ahead and increase the CQ from 50 to 70.

It will look just like the original DVD :lol:

kwag

mine is TemporalSmoother(2,2) :( now I have to start all over (j/k) Just for the hell of it earlier I set it to TemporalSmoother(5,5) and the audio was off by about 5 seconds- I don't have a clue why this filter affects the audio sync- all I know is (X,Y) X=strength Y=radius ?? :roll: ???

Re: hmm
 

Hi Baker:

I think the Quantization matrix in there fixes a lot of the original MPEG-1 issues regarding chroma/brightness/dullness, etc.
I did a small clip this afternoon of UnderSiege 2 and it looked GREAT!.
I can't tell a difference in color from the original DVD ( which is MPEG-2 )
Here's a small clip: http://www.kvcd.net/kvcdx2-short.mpg
It's 7 seconds, 897Kb.

kwag

You can use 2,2. That's fine. Too high a value will mess audio/video sync because it takes too much time to process, and the video will lag the audio.

Don't go beyond 2,2. This happens also in VitrualDub, if you use a high temporal value.

kwag

I don't have the words to express my admiration and respect for such fine work teacher kwag, i confess i was a little dissapointed with the template that made files too big, but know i am really amazed with the size of the image, the quality and of course the final file size of the new template, i haven't tried it but i have no doubt about the success i'll have. I'm also very excited for watching the compatibility with mi KONKA (with K ok?) i hope it won't have problems with the new beautiful resolution(i never liked the eggheads, and i think many players neither(tampoco)).

By the way, it will be too much if i ask you to explain us how you did it? the first template you posted today, and the newest one, which were your movements? What your german friends did?

Thanks again for this big effort, and by the way, how do you do to aswer all the questions made in this site, working, visiting german forums, and make so many tests???!!! Do you eat? do you sleep? does your children know you? or when they see you they ask to mom: who's that mister mama? 8O HOW YOU DO IT? (Just joking :wink: )

Thanks teacher kwag,
DaDe.

Hi DaDe:

Thanks for those words. But all of this work is the work of many people.
I know that my dream is ( maybe impossible ) to make DVD visual quality and +-120minutes in a CD-R. Maybe with the 99 minute CDR's this dream comes true :lol:

I received an E-Mail this morning from Andreas, one of the moderators at a DVD forum in Germany, with a lot of technical information regarding the use of the GOP in the KVCD template in their template. They made a Quantization Matrix for TMPEG that when I tried it, it blew my mind away :lol: .
The only problem was that the file size, with their parameters, was around 2MB per minute more than with the KVCDx2 that I had posted last night.
So I started to experiment with many parameters, trying to keep the quality, but reducing the file size.
The result is in the current BETA template :D .

If you increase the CQ in the current template from 50 ( the current value ) to 70, the damn mpeg will look like a DVD!.
But your file size will be very large. I still believe that with the CQ at 70, it will still fit about 90 minutes of video in a 80 minute CD-R.
So a 3 hour movie should fit in 2 CD-R's with a "DVD like" quality.
This has to be confirmed. ( The size, not the quality :wink: I already did that )


Do I Eat?
What's that!

Kids?
Oh, the people I hear downstairs playing!

And when they see me, they jump!
Guess they don't see me that often ( even in the same house )

JUST KIDDING :lol: :lol:

kwag

Ok, im trying this new Beta template and at the TMPGEnc 'Bitrate Setting' screen in wizard mode it says that the file size will be around 3850.68mbs.

Movie info is 704x480, 23.976fps / 44100Hz Stereo / 248 min 34 sec.

1. Will it be around that size or is it sayign that because of the 2000 bitrate?
2. How come it says 248mins, 34secs when the movie is only 85 min, 22secs?
3. What is the average MB per minute are you all getting?

hehe thanks

Don't use the Wizard. It doesn't display the correct time, because CQ mode can't be calculated.

Average per minute will vary, depending on the movie.
But as a guide, expect around 6-8MB per minute. 10MB on high action scenes.

kwag

Very high action ( water splash ) sample
 

Here's another very small ( about 3 seconds ) very high speed action scene with the new template.

It's a small file. Less than 500KB
http://www.kvcd.net/splash.mpg

kwag

Thanks for info but this template is to good for me!

My 466, 160mbs of ram sucks for this template hehe

Right keag here I go, I have a few questions please answer them in order.

1. Me and a admin at vcdhelp had a conversation about trying to get 720x576 resouloution on 2 cds. Now he explained to me that with a cbr of 2500 (the hightest possible.) thw quailty wont look so great as the macroblocks wont have enough data and be lifeless looking, and he was right. So that meant 480x576 actually looked BETTER than my 720x576 idea. Now how on earth can 2000 bitrate look so good!!!

2. I have easily modified the templet for pal and it wasn't too hard. But I Have always looked for futture compliance in my encodes (eg my 352x576 svcds) now I think that 1 cd with dvd quailty is impossible but 2 cds might just work. Now I want to up the bitrate to 2500max and edited the quantizier to fit 2 cds.oh yea and kept the gop structure to 15 frames AND changed the audio to 48000hz do I have a futture dvd compliant file(mpeg 1 is complaint isnt it?)??? Cause 2 cds,future compliance,dvd quailty. Then It will definetly make you famous.

Make a 2cd dvd complaint templet THEN worry about trying to get it on one cd will ya?

Baker

Hi Baker:

#1- It's the Quantization Matrix what did the trick. If you try the template with the original TMPEG's default matrix table, it will look CACA !
Actually the blocks are there, but with the Q matrix they blend so well that they're hardly visible.

#2- MPEG-1 is DVD compliant ONLY if it's 352x240(288) and CBR :cry:
MPEG-2 has to be 352x480(576) or 720x480(576).
So even SVCD's will have to be re-encoded for compatibility.
Even with the patching tricks, like Avestensio, DVDPatcher, etc, some players will not play a patched SVCD mpeg file in a DVD player.

"Make a 2cd dvd complaint templet THEN worry about trying to get it on one cd will ya?"

Why a DVD compliant template, if right now you can get DVD quality is 2 CD's.
Just up the CQ to 70 and bit rate to 2,300 and you'll get around 3 hours in 2CD-R's with the current template. That's with the new template.
I tried that, and it works. At those settings you can view your original DVD besides your encoded mpeg, and you can hardly tell the difference. Of course, there's always some loss, because you transcoded from a VOB which is already a MPEG file. So unless you have gigabytes of uncompressed MGM footage, you'll never get ( technically ) DVD quality, not even with CCE or TMPEG's DVD templates. It's just not possible, because you're adding another generation of encoding.

As for 2 CD's, that has never been the goal of KVCD templates!. What people are looking here is to fit a full movie in a single CD, with the highest possible quality. And we're already there!


kwag

KVCDx2-CQ-(NTSCFilm)-BETA on APEX AD 600 A
 

I just used your KVCDx template
http://www.kvcd.net/templates/KVCDx2-CQ-(NTSCFilm)-BETA.mcf
on a clip from The 5th Element. I put it on a non-standard VCD and it played OK. I didn't change any of the settings at all. During playback I do have the ability to FFW and RRW up to 4X. I tried the same clip with setting the frame rate to 29.97 and it looked perfect. Wonderful quality. For others who can't get thier Apex AD 600 to playback correctly, remember to turn PCB OFF (it's a little button on your remote).

-Matt

back again with more quewstions:

1:is vcd dvd compatible(beisdes the audio)?

2:I want future complaince so I dont have to reencode in the future, plz tell me the settings I must change to make it dvd compatible and still fit on 2 cds(mpeg-2 of course.)

3:how long should the encoding take on a 450mhz computer will you plz?

Sorry for not doing this stuff myself but my dvd-rom is down and I need to get a new one so until I can afford it culd you answer these questions plz!!!

Baker

Hey Kwag,

Is your newest template intended only for widescreen movies or can it accomodate 4:3 video stuff as well? Without AR distortion?

can this gop structure be fed into cce?

I can't seem to do it!!

This is sad as I would love to really let this gop structure strut its stuff!!1

I believe that if such quailty is possible with tmpegenc than with cce quailty on 1 cd may be very close to dvd.

baker

Color distortion
 

Hey, I encoded a test of my DVD rip of Lord Of The Rings and I noticed that this template and the lower res template don't handle blackouts well AT ALL! They distort the color very badly right before it goes black. Is there a way I can fix this? BTW, the new template works great in my Panasonic DVD-RV31 DVD player :D if anyone wanted to know :wink:

-Any help would be appreciated!-

Green Bars?
 

Um, I have a problem. When I played my Lord Of The Rings KVCD sample on my Dvd player, (Note: CQ:70 and max bitrate raised to 2300) I got funky green bars on the right half of my screen. THis is odd because it played your Matrix sample without any problems. Again, any help would be appreciated. Btw, I also tried the LOTR KVCD on your original settings also and it did the same thing. BTW, what was the resolution on both of your Matrix examples? I need to know.
-Thanx-

Hi Scav:

The template will work great with full screen movies too. But don't expect 120 minutes on a CD! :wink:
I tried a small clip just to see the quality.

Maybe you'll fit 90-100 minutes or so from a full screen movie.
Depends on the movie.

kwag

Hi Baker:

1: You'll have to re-encode if you want to put it in a DVD. Sadly, the MPEG-2 specs for DVD call for a max size of 15 PAL or 18 NTSC frames in a GOP. So you can't have the advantage of the KVCD's GOP sequence.
If you look at the template, you'll see that the max number of frame is set to "0", which means there's no limit, and TMPEG can generate longer GOP's. So you'll never get the advanced compression we are getting with MPEG-1 ( and even MPEG-2 SVCD with the KVCD GOP ) in a DVD.

2: Fixed max GOP to 15 or 18. And say Bye Bye to small file size! Probably you'll need 3 CD's to fit a movie.

3: 450Mhz PC? Start to encode. Come back the next day for your result 8)
I'd say between 24-30 hours.

kwag

Sorry! CCE will not take that GOP :P
Also CCE's MPEG-1 quality is far inferior to TMPEG's MPEG-1.

kwag