Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Again, I give findings, not raw data, because I don't always have the time to take screen caps and clips. I'm actually using my gear, not sitting around testing it. I'm not one of those people that stares at test patterns all day. I do, however, try to give enough written info so you can recreate the scenarios. And many people have done just that, seen the same issues. I've yet to see a test that lacked variables. Posterization, for example, varies greatly on sources, from almost imperceptible (unless you're looking for it), to unacceptable artifacts. What I've always seen is people try to use test patterns, retail tapes, etc, and that's neither typical source, nor a useful real-world test. German Doom9 doesn't use NTSC equipment, where it's easier to see than PAL. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think people that spend $1000 for a video game console (with controllers, handful of games) are bonkers. What a complete waste of time and money. But you know what? They buy it. And you know what else? Many people buy games with the same idea: buy it, use/enjoy it, resell it. Quality video gear is an asset that holds value, and quite a few people understand this. Cars are the same way, and lots of people sold their used cars in 2020-2021 for a profit. I have actions figures on my desk that have no use, other that look pretty, and these have appreciated more than TBCs. Quote:
Quote:
Do you still have every car you ever owned parked in your driveway? Quote:
I still have ads somewhere, I saved video gear ads from the late 90s and early 2000s for trivia, I knew I'd want to see those numbers someday. |
Quote:
For my case, my tape collection is ever growing, so reselling it isn't on the table for me. Anyways, do you got an explanation for the weird lines when I have the VCR's TBC off while having the picture set to NORM? It reminds me of RF interference, but that doesn't make a lot of sense because I don't get the issue when I have it on EDIT mode, and with the TBC on, image is nice and clean. |
Quote:
I'm nonstop amazed at the prices of action figures. Browse BBTS: https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/ For example, this week's newest preorder is a 6" action figure based on a 1990s Sega game, for the low-low price of only $125 (plus tax, plus $4 flat shipping). Seriously, WTF? If you followed toy groups on Facebook, or genre forums (example: TFW2005 for Transformers, where I'm a member), you'd see how most people have the entire figure lines. And many get not just one figure, but "one to open, one to keep MIB/MOC" (which I find nuts). We're talking massive spending on action figures. Stock trading sites are no different. I can afford to grab 25 shares of this, 10 shares of that. But some people have enough cash to get 100 or even 500 shares in a single buy. They're flush with cash. Yes, I know people that don't even have two nickels to rub together. But I know equally as many, probably more, that have money. I know a school teacher that drives a Corvette. And nearby rednecks have yards full of "toys" (motorcycles, golf carts, tractors, etc) and $50k+ pickup trucks. Every weekend, I watch the tractor auctions on RFDTV, with a family member (he enjoys it, and I enjoy spending time with him). Those people often own barns full of tractors, on a large piece of property, and it's unfathomable how much money some people must have. Anyway, I just do not think what you're saying is accurate, at least for the primary demographic that is willing to DIY video. Quote:
|
Quote:
|
|
So much to answer here. I will have to split this post up as there is a lot to cover.
Quote:
Quote:
Re: the proc amp, I agree that it may not the be the thing at fault here but the point remains - levels and colour are completely mishandled by the units that I've tried. Irrespective of tapes, the adjustments made by the TBC are always definitively wrong. I am not merely judging by eye, the waveforms speak for themselves. Even if freezing / ghosting is not a factor on your AVT, I would be equally concerned about its handling of levels too. Back to the ES10 - Quote:
End of the day, it is a difference of spending hundreds vs thousands of dollars for a "what if" scenario. If some tapes are truly so worn out that they make any consumer A/D converter go haywire then they can simply be set aside and left to a professional service to digitize. Much more sensible option than spending an exorbitant amount of money "just in case" on external TBCs that are sold at 5x the price (at least) of what they were brand new. Side note: Whenever I refer to the ES10 I also refer to the entire line of 1st gen Panasonic DVRs. The TBC is not unique to simply this model, but also belongs to DMR-HS2, DMR-Exx, DMR-EH52 / EH50 / EH60. 1st gen has the strongest performance but 2nd gen is also adequate for decent condition tapes with the benefit of only one A/D conversion in the HDMI workflow. Quote:
|
Quote:
Quote:
I've said this for at least 15 years now. The AVT-8710 can overheat is used too long. Never use it for more than 6 hours, and let it cool down for at least 30 minutes between uses. AVT-8710 problems are cumulative. Many units now exhibit what I refer to as "attitude problems". The output can be garbled. In the worst cases, then unit refuses to even power on. It takes patience to retry unit startup, with breaks between startups. Then use it for 6 hours. And then I suggest you call it quits for the day, not push it. The mild currently-typical issues just take a few attempts. I've lost AVT-8710s myself from this. I'd baby the units for years, and then accidentally leave it on overnight. One mistake is all it took. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think part of your issue is just not having enough experience with a wide array of tapes. How many tapes have you converted to date? Quote:
Quote:
And you're still not understanding valuations (coupled with inflation). I can no longer buy a cheeseburger for 49 cents ($0.49), but you don't see me opting to starve rather than pay $1.99 in today's prices. It's not "old tech" (worthless tech), but legacy (still needed, no longer made). Legacy has value. This was true long before TBCs, and f/2.8 (or lower) lenses is a good example of it. There are lens made in decades past that cost way more than MSRP, and nothing comparable new exists. It's not just pros buying those, but hobbyists, and even photo students. Quote:
|
Quote:
|
1 Attachment(s)
Jarvis is talking about the PAL models and Lordsmurf is talking about the NTSC models, so there may be some differences.
Quote:
In my testing, NTSC Panasonic DMR-ES15 and DMR-ES25 both completely eliminate all Blackmagic Intensity Pro 4K black flashes and frame drops/inserts, even with my worst Nth-gen tape or other garbage like tuner static, unrecorded tape, etc. I never ended up posting my results because all evidence is dismissed/ignored, but since I have nothing better to do at the moment, here's a screenshot. Sound card used as poor man's 2-channel oscilloscope; sufficient for my purpose. Left channel = direct signal (blank portion of tape) Right channel = same signal passed through DMR; consistent VSync is added (frame sync) Attachment 13952 Quote:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...e7#post2341969 https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...-I-hate-DNR%29 https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...deo-samples%29 |
Quote:
(a) that you must not have had very varied testing criteria. I found the ES20 and ES25 were both very weak, and often did little to nothing on very basic line timing (wiggle) issues, worse than any JVC or Panasonic S-VHS VCR, which is the standard. It was a far cry from ES10 or ES15, which is itself stronger than the JVC/Panasonic decks (which is both good and bad). (b) that there are at least two versions of the ES25. That's also plausible, it happens. Understand I wish this were not the case. But it is what it is. Quote:
Quote:
|
Again, I still don't see what is the issue, That's normal VHS artifacts, it is part of the tape. Different analog workflows never produce identical results pixel by pixel, Only digital sources can achieve that level of consistency.
|
Quote:
Also not all models were released everywhere, like there is an ES16 that seems to be a Canada-only model that's almost the same as the ES15. I think the ES25 is similar to the ES15, but with HDMI, and may be North-America only. I don't know for certain if they had models that used significantly different hardware with the same name. ES referred to HDD-less models EH to ones with HDDs as far as I know, later they used EZ and EX for models with digital tuners. The second number seems to generally indicate what generation they are from. As Ive noted before, I've also never seen the ones I've used output anything that wasn't a stable signal, though they do turn off the analog outputs after a few seconds if they think there is nothing being input. This does NOT happen on unrecorded sections of a tape, but it can happen if a tape has been "erased" by recording to it with no signal input (provided the VCR doesn't blue screen on it, and may possibly not happen if the VCR has a TBC active) which isn't very common but I've seen it a few times. Never seen models from other brands that do this so I don't know why Panasonic decided to set them up like this. This isn't an issue if using the HDMI out on a newer model though. On the PAL Lion king tapes I have the EH57 at least gives constantly fluctuating brightness levels even if connected over HDMI (I think the ES10 does similar but not sure.) Macrovision isn't as common on PAL tapes as NTSC ones though, haven't done a lot of testing on other devices with it though. Main issue with the PAL ones as noted before and on the German forums is that they tend to clip whites, which can be worked around. EDIT: ANyway I think it would be better to have this discussion in another thread. |
Quote:
|
Ok then use EDIT, that's what you suppose to use for capturing anyway.
|
Quote:
In comparison, the Datavideo TBC I own provides consistent performance and the unit has never exhibited the kind of behaviour you describe with the AVTs. It does a good job of handling levels and is fairly transparent to the signal. While I can provide comparison samples, I can't prove how stable the unit has been over the years so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
End of the day, you just make it seem like your workflow is the only option, even when other viable methods are provided yet you choose not to even acknowledge them. To see that reputable members like msgohan consider themselves dismissed on here is also concerning. You found your ideal setup and that's totally fine, the problem only arises when you act like all other methods are strictly inferior - even when you have never tried them yourself. Quote:
This will be my last post in the thread as I agree the discussion is better continued elsewhere. |
Quote:
For example, the TBC-1000 is no darling, and has had excessive caps issues since 2019. We're all now learning that some units have begun to age as badly as AG-1980P decks. You also need to understand that there is no single TBC-1000, but at least 6 different revisions sharing that model number, which comparable (but not identical) parts. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
- Invest in a good VCR, that's where quality starts (or stops). - Some form of TBC is required, and the ES10/15 is a line TBC with non-TBC frame sync, not really a TBC at all, very minimally meets the definition of "TBC" in the context, and with multiple issues (not just artifacts, but reliability). - Obviously a capture card, DVD recorder, capture box, etc. Again, don't go cheap, or you'll get 1990s junk (Canopus ADVC boxes), or cheap Chinese USB or HDMI junk, all of which will butcher the video quality. I always find it amusing that people think that I suggest my workflow. :D That entails about 4x decks (at least 1 AG-1980P and 2x JVCs, a DVD recorder, multiple capture cards, multiple TBCs (at least 1 DataVideo and 1 Cypress), audio mixers, two different types of proc amp (1 RGB, 1 YUV), a detailer -- and yes, ES10 or ES15. No, I'm merely suggesting a basic good workflow. Nothing "fancy" or "pro" by any means. Basic. Now if you want to cut corners, I'll talk about ES10/15 or better yet ES10/15 paired with DVK/5000. We can discuss other non-suggested capture cards. Same for non-TBC VCRs, and JVC still suggested. Quote:
Quote:
Disagree with? Yes, sometimes. But usually not. Quote:
I don't need to try every method myself. Just as I also don't need to stick my dick in an electric socket ("try it myself!") to know it won't have a good outcome. There is plenty of extant data that shows what will happen. Now then, that said, I have tried (or reviewed) about 100 capture cards, maybe 60 DVDs, at least 100 VCRs, almost every single TBC (or TBC-like device) known to exist, in the past 2 decades. So spare me the "you never try it yourself" bit. But I just cannot spend the time to "try" everything due to online trolling daring me to "try it myself" (which, FYI, almost never deviates from the expected outcome, and the problem vectors are easy to recreate). Quote:
The bottom line is this... Your main disagreement is simply about price. You want to find cheaper alternatives, and those do exist. That's fine, I make those suggestions as well. However, you have to understand that cutting corners always reduces overall compatibility, often quality. Not everybody pinches pennies. Some folks want to invest in a foolproof solution, something that "just works". They don't want to experiment, learn lots about video, and screw around with trial-and-error, in order to see if the cheaper solution will work for them. Their time is more valuable than that. They spend what's needed for the better/best gear, do the transfer work, the resell the gear. Most get back a decent resale % (sometimes even profit), but understand that even at a 50% loss, their DIY is less costly than giving it to a pro service (or a "pro" service that may have given crappy quality). They're able to get an overall excellent return on investment, and have quality converted video they're happy with. I see this all the time. Overall, video is a cheap hobby, a few grand gets you everything you'll need. For most hobbies, that's just intro costs. So, perspective needed. |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main thing I want to talk about - regarding my "low-end gear". If you asked me for a list of it you would find we share much in common. I paid a great deal of attention to your posts when I was starting out circa-2011 and onwards, and many of my purchases were largely based on your recommendation. My current setup therefore is not determined by choice, but by necessity. I'll just focus on the essentials - line TBC and frame sync. The TBCs found in recommended JVCs and Panasonics consistently choked on my tapes and also had inherent downsides regardless of performance. Namely the JVC's forced DNR and the Panasonic's hard clipping of any levels above spec. I was unsatisfied until I acquired the ES10 which ironed out anything I threw at it without complaint. From that point it became a permanent part of the chain. In regards to full frame TBC, you already know my thoughts on AVT-8710 and though I never owned the coveted green model, the ones I did own simply butchered the signal. TBC-1000 was indeed a good purchase in my personal experience, however - given that I was not dealing with either MV or false triggers and already having a rock solid frame sync from the ES10 (as proven in this very thread) it became unnecessary. It is always there as a backup however, should any problems arise with false detection. Quote:
Even outside of TBCs, good proc amps are also equally hard to acquire. I tried for years to purchase a Signvideo PA-100 with absolutely no luck. People must be holding onto them for dear life because they have largely disappeared. The best I managed was the previous iteration under Vidicraft label, the PRC-100 which is composite-only with no separate toggles for white and black point (but a useful luma meter which I still use occasionally). As mentioned before, I am now simply repurposing a volume controller to lower abnormally high levels - also composite-only but at least it is passive and adds zero noise. Only used for special tapes. In terms of the ES10 / Panasonic DVRS in general, your main disagreement seems to be about MV-based issues. Posterization being a secondary factor which I still haven't personally seen, and if we really want to test this then it is certainly possible. But soley on the topic of false MV triggers, are they truly so common to immediately warrant the purchase of a full TBC? Many users (including professionals that have frequented this forum) also use the Canopus NX card (not DV) with no other h/w in the chain, as it has comparable (slightly better) line TBC and frame sync to the ones in 2nd Gen Pana DVRs, along with a true proc amp. As I assume this card would also obey copy-protection, then I am simply doubtful about these false triggers being such a recurring issue. As I’ve said before, context is very important - not everyone is intending to start a capture service transferring all manner of wildly varying tapes from around the world. Most likely they have only a small collection of their own and a minimal, readily available capture chain may be entirely sufficient without hunting down rare and costly hardware. |
Over half a year later, VCR still works well. I just got a Cyberpower UPS and it looks like it cleaned a bit of noise up if there was any. however, I am still having issues with picture control NORM with the TBC off. I'm still getting this nasty noise that happens every few seconds. Whenever I have to use my ES15 I have to use EDIT mode but it looks SO bad compared to NORM. Is there a solution?
Screenshot here, video example here. The ES15 is not causing the issue. I see it on my CRT as well even if it's the only thing hooked up to the output. |
Site design, images and content © 2002-2024 The Digital FAQ, www.digitalFAQ.com
Forum Software by vBulletin · Copyright © 2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.