New VCR observations, usage, D-VHS vs. S-VHS?
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I got a new VCR (JVC SR-MV45) from LordSmurf almost two weeks ago and I'm in love. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU LS THIS VCR IS AMAZINGGGGG
It's blows my old D-VHS deck out of the water quality wise! D-VHS Deck (HM-DH30000U) Attachment 13704 SR-MV45 Attachment 13705 If you're considering getting a D-VHS deck for standard VHS transfers, don't. You'll have a bad time. I do have some observations and some questions about this because I'm somewhat new to using JVC's with a *proper* TBC and not some half-ass TBC like the D-VHS deck had. I had one issue on my D-VHS deck where out of nowhere the image would just start jumping along like crazy, like a weird field order switch or whatever. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMzoEnAA3EY I have yet to encounter that issue with the new VCR y̶e̶t̶. :D EP tracking is hit or miss. This is one of LS's B+ decks (tracks SP and LP fine, EP depends). No fault of anyone. I got some EP tapes that have some shows and doing the manual tracking while capturing is a bit of a pain since it can't really hold it when I rewind to the beginning. It's a bit of a pain but I'll manage :P I've also noticed that the brightness sometimes goes up slightly and goes back down. It's not an issue of my capture card because I also notice it when I have it hooked up to my CRT. Is this normal? Had an issue where the VCR crinkled a tape a little :/ Happened when I was fast forwarding through the tape and I guess it went off track then came back on with some damage. It's nothing important but its still weird. I did use it almost nonstop for the first three days though, so that's probably why. I've let it sit for a day or two between transfers now. Hasn't happened since. One thing I'll miss about using the D-VHS deck, as terrible as it was, it did output a fairly clean signal from the S-Video ports. I think it digitizes the signal before it's sent out, so that's probably why. The non-D-VHS decks just output pure raw-dog analog. Miss seeing 0 or 2 inserted frames a transfer :P But that's perfectly normal because analog video Sucks Poo Poo Kinda™. Other than that, my captures were fine. No dropped frames, just the occasional inserts when the tape hiccups. Everything's in sync. I switched to capturing on my XP machine with huffyuv, so that helps a lot. On that topic, I'm going to need a frame TBC. I've been looking at the Datavideo MP-6000. It was a DVD recorder but I saw that someone on another side uses it as a TBC, and I found a delisted eBay auction that says that the TBC is just as good as a TBC-1000. Has anyone tried it out as a frame TBC? If so, how's the results? Does it work well? If not I'll just save up for a TBC-1000. Another TBC-related thing: I'm finally able to use my Panasonic DMR-ES15 for tapes that exhibit the dreaded tearing issue that plagues JVC TBCs. You couldn't turn it off on the D-VHS decks (another reason why you should stay far far far far far away from them for transfer). However, it's so much more noisier because of the noise reduction being locked to the TBC. Kind of a pain to clean it up in post but I'll manage. Another issue I've experienced with the TBC off+ES15 setup is this line at the top. Feels like ghost-tearing to me (even though I completely made that term up). Is this normal? Attachment 13706 I'll add on to the thread as I find more stuff. Other than the minor issues I've experienced, I'm in love :hearts: |
Glad to read this post, and thanks for sharing samples. :)
I've never liked the D-VHS, not JVC or Mitsubishi or otherwise, and this is why. TBC is not as good (sometimes even a problem), NR not as good, LP/EP rarely plays well. When VCR heads heat up, from overuse, bad things can happen. The hot heads can cause the thin tape to slightly alter shape, and "eating" can happen. Also remember that B+ is a statement of tracking, alignment, head condition. Head conditions makes alignment trickier (thus ability to track well). So it must be tweaked, to make as best as possible. Misalignment is easier, and too much misalignment can cause bad things to happen. When you FF/REW while playing, it misaligns some. So FF/REW while play + overheated deck = potential for very bad things to happen. On older tapes, like BASF, a head that is too hot, or too cold, will literally strip oxide off the tape. The AGC between models, and even decks, differs some. CRT TV can still feel the effects of timing errors, and can throw off the luma gain, it's not 100% immune, just mostly. And it could still be your capture card (what card?). TBC may still smooth that out. That blue line is a top-of-frame error, not too different from tearing. Just mask it, move on. It's almost never worth filtering, and will never entirely correct anyway. Tearing on not caused by JVC VCRs, but the tapes. The JVC line TBC simply is not strong enough to correct tearing. Even the Panasonic AG-1980 field TBC often is not, or will on/off the tearing. eBay is full of idiots that know nothing about VCRs, TBCs, or video whatsoever. The MP-6000 has the latter non-consumer-source TBC-5000/DVK type TBC. It's weak, and chokes on videotapes, especially EP mode VHS and nth gen sources. It's easy to spot -- those units are all blue boxes. The blue box DataVideos have almost nothing in common with the TBC-100/1000/3000/etc. The 5000 type can work fine with perfect SP mastery type sources (not made on home camcorders/VCRs), with a strong line TBC (usually Panasonic, maybe JVC but it's hit-or-miss). But for EP/nth/etc, forget it. Yep, the NR from the Panasonic ES10/15 isn't ideal. I say this over and over. It's nice to read that somebody else sees it, acknowledges it. It's not slight or faint, but obvious. And contrary to some folks stating it can be "turned off", that is not true -- and I don't care what the manual says (user manuals are often wrong, missing info, etc). The "on" is strong, while "off" is weaker -- but it's still there. The only time that the ES10/15 is suggested is when the net result is better video, aka anti-tearing. Aside from anti-tearing, the ES10/15 really has no place in a quality workflow. It can work as a "poor man's TBC" (strong+crippled line TBC with non-TBC frame sync), but it's very hit-or-miss (especially without the DVK to make a full TBC'ish), and degrades quality compared to the source. Inserted frames are still a kind of dropped frame. VirtualDub adds an insert to prevent loss of sync, but the drop happened. When VirtualDub gets overrun, it can both insert and drop, or just gives up and drops. PM me about TBC options. ;) |
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In fact, install the Win8 Firewall (nothing to do with Win8, terrible software name!) from Sphinx. The free version. http://www.sphinx-soft.com/download/W8FC6.5/ Monitor it for activity. Don't just block network attempts, but entirely disable anything you can, sometimes outright uninstalling PITA software that insists on trying to phone home/out. BTW: The "Win10 Firewall" works great on Win7/8/10, I use this. But XP needs the "Win8" version. |
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Another observation that I've noticed. Whenever I run tapes through my ES15 (problematic tapes of course), there's this terrible flicker. This never happened to me when I used my old Quasar on this thing. Is this normal? Sample's attached. This only happens when I use my ES15 with the TBC off. TBC on doesn't have the problem.
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I don't see any flicker in the sample.
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I'll admit it's a bit hard to tell while it's playing, but when you go frame by frame it's noticeable.
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I have observed a bit of flicker on the PAL ES10 on a few occastions on a tape where the top of the video signal was extremely messed up. That was on a very extreme case though.
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Found out that the flickering is just a TBC-off issue. :/ I have a better video example attached. What a shame. It gets really bad sometimes. Attachment 13937
Another issue. I have a tape that's physically damaged. I think it has something to do with the control track. It's an EP tape. Sometimes it'll speed up randomly for no reason, sometimes show the blue back but have audio. Really annoying. Is there anything I can do here? Attachment 13935 Attachment 13938 Another issue. Does the MV45 have issues with heat? There's a tape that has the nasty tearing issue, however it is fixed when I take the lid off the VCR, or when I leave it off for a while, or when it just wants to not tear. It happened on my D-VHS deck as well. I have it right next to my PC but I have plenty of breathing room in the back. Only thing that's on it is my ES15. Attachment 13936 |
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Forgot to add before the edit time expired:
I've always used NORM for the picture mode. Looks great with the TBC on. TBC off, not so much. IMO, noise wise (not talking about softness/sharpness), my old Quasar looked better than the MV45 with the TBC off. Is this normal? This just doesn't look right. Hope LS can chime in. MV45 TBC off to ES15 Attachment 13941 Quasar VHQ-950 to ES15 Attachment 13942 |
From the missing horizontal green lines, it appears that the Quasar somehow cleaned up the signal even without a TBC. What I don't like about the Quasar image are the ringing artifacts from sharpening.
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From the picture the control track is damaged so the VCR defaults to SP speed and you get the chipmunks.
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I found the culprit of my TBC-off noise issue. Get this, having my picture control set to NORM causes the problem. What??? :huh1: NORM Attachment 13944 EDIT Attachment 13945 Ignore the weird change in brightness. Messing around with capture settings at the moment. Focus on the noise. I guess I'll be changing my picture mode to edit if I need to use my ES15. Anyone know why this happens? Paging LS. |
Yeah that's a bit odd, especially the green lines, one would normally expect EDIT to be more noisy as it turns off most of the noise reduction and video post-processing so maybe something's gone screwy with the analog noise reduction?
Does turning video calibration on/off have any impact? And is R3 on or off? |
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To say this device has no place in a "quality workflow" is also frankly absurd. Regarding full frame TBC performance, the only dedicated device I would ever recommend is the TBC-1000 which is indeed has very good performance. And yet, in my experience the ES10 still performs better for this purpose. Perhaps I should upload samples sometime. But even if the performance was comparable, the price is certainly not. I bought my TBC-1000 brand new for under $300 AUD and now I see the going price on eBay for up to 2K which is absolutely ridiculous. You would surely know the cost of these units now too. ES10 on the other hand can still be acquired cheap. |
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VCR Straight to Capture Card Attachment 13948 VCR to ES15 to Capture Card Attachment 13949 TBC is on in both cases. Will the average joe notice? Probably not. Quote:
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The bigger issue is that I'm not trying to prove anything to anybody. Too many posters on various forums are entitled, and demand "proof" of this or that, as if I work for them. No, I'm sharing my findings. Trying to curate and share the data that has resulted in those findings isn't an easy task, especially due to my health issues, which limit my time far more than those who are making these demands on my time. Unpaid, of course. I do want to do this, but it's not a priority. In the 2000s, before my health issues at the start of the 2010s, I did provide way more samples of things, and at more sites (some of which are now gone, so it was a wasted effort in the end, wouldn't you say?) Quote:
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$300 AUD was less than half MSRP of the TBC-1000, and even for those few years (almost a decade ago) when TBC prices were unusually down, $300 AUD (aka about $150 USD at that time) was insanely low. When exactly, and where exactly, did you buy that? |
So what alternative is left? A weak DVK? AVT-8710? I see you still recommend it these days for reasons I don't understand. It is absolute garbage, not only does it introduce freezing and ghosting on even good sources but also completely alters color via proc amp that cannot be disabled. I have owned both the AVT and the Cypress variant and they perform just the same. Perhaps early 2000s models did have a good chip, but I have never seen it myself and if they do exist, they likely go for a considerable sum. Other than that you have pro broadcast TBCs which should never be recommended to any novice period.
It is a quite a shame that ES10, one of the best pieces of hardware for analog capture is entirely dismissed on here as "crippled" when both axes of TBC outperform the majority of options. Maybe one of these days you will finally show evidence of this destructive NR or posterization, but I highly doubt it. It's ironic you recommend JVC VCRs for their line TBC - which does have truly destructive NR that can't be disabled - but yet ES10 is too much somehow. Quote:
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The HM-DH30000U doesn't seem like JVC's "best effort". Its plagued with reliability issues compared to other DVHS decks. I don't have one here so I can't comment on its quality. I do have a SR-VD400US (HM-DH40000U) and its TBC is very different from the SVHS decks and the earlier HM-DH30000U. It can't be turned off, but appears to offer pass-thru capabilities on the VCR's inputs like some DVD recorders do. The whole VCR appears to be based around the LSI DiMeNsion chipset.
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