Which VCR is least bad to capture old VHS?
 

Hello, i'm Philip, i'm buying a VCR to digitize my PAL VHS tapes, but I don't want to spend too much. I'll be using a Blackmagic Shuttle USB 3.0 for capturing.

As for the VCRs, my choices are:

Samsung SV5000W
Panasonic HR-S7500 (eu version)

If I'm not mistaken, both lack a TBC, but I can't afford anything better. Which one is the lesser evil?

Thank you very much!

The problem is the Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle here, Regardless what VCR you're going with, it will give you major video stability problems.

I found it at a good price ($35). Isn't it even worth trying?

What about the VCRs? The price is the same for both ($80).

Thanks!

Welcome. :)

The Samsung SV-5000W deck is complete garbage. Do not buy. I have one of these, and the quality of output is generally beyond pitiful. Samsung didn't even make VCRs, this is a Panasonic rebadge (with some Samsung alterations). It was wildly overpriced when new 25 years ago ($500+), and is still often in that $500 range. But it's just a plain composite VCR, and a terrible one at that. The "multi-format" (PAL<>NTSC) is terrible, even for 1990s standards. This unit has been discussed (and rightfully dismissed) many times in the forum.

HR-S7500 is JVC model number -- I'm not aware of a Panasonic model. (And if so, it has to be a rebadge.) The JVC 7500 (PAL) is non-TBC S-VHS model, s-video out, and it would definitely be far superior.

That card is infamous junk, and will not work.

I literally just read a PM from a person, who had a Blackmagic, and had been facing problems, even with other quality gear in use (including one of my Cypress frame TBCs). The Blackmagic refused to capture properly. He bought a known-inferior Elgato to test with, and it confirmed all of his other gear (and computer) were perfectly fine. It was the Blackmagic card at fault.

Blackmagic made HD cards that "also did" SD (and quite poorly). At best, it had visual issues. At worst, no signal (black frames).

So no, it's not worth testing. It's almost always a complete waste of time. It wasn't even worth $35. Sadly, even an Easycap tends to be better --- and it should not be used either.

Thank you so much for your response! You’ve been a huge help and saved me from wasting time and money.

I made a mistake—I actually meant the JVC HR-S7500. Speaking of VCRs, are there any other factors I should consider? Are brands like Sharp or Sony any good? Or, given the price, should I just go for the JVC 7500 without hesitation?

As for the Blackmagic, I didn’t expect it to be that bad! Would you recommend another Blackmagic card (e.g., Intensity Pro, intensity extreme, pinnacle...) or should I switch brands entirely? If so, which capture cards would you recommend?

Thanks again!

I would grab that JVC, though with hesitation and careful review. If you're buying this from a random place, with no ability to refund, you must be assured that it functions correctly. Do not assume. Sometimes a low price is "too good to be true", as that 7500 is generally worth at least double (€150 to 250 range). So at a lowly €75/$80, you need to ask what's wrong with it.

For example: https://vcrshop.com/product/vcr/vide...videorecorder/

BM cards should not be used, period. It's just a bad brand for SD work.

In the 2020s, selecting a capture card that "just works" is not easy. The era of capturing video was the 2000s, and everything degraded across the 2010s. In the 2020s, you have lots of gear that is failed, doesn't work with new OS, or is just Chinese junk. (That's why I have capture cards in the marketplace, or at least try to -- and I'm about to be sold out again. I'm the "easy button" so our community can actually capture video, rather than have issues and merely "try to capture".) There are certain ATI/Pinnacle cards, but which you need depends on factors. And some of those are not safe to buy "in the wild", because there are versions (some good, some bad, not easy to identify which is which).

If you just want a cheap card that "doesn't totally suck", then I have suggestions. But you'll run into issues, limitations, though not as terrible as the Blackmagic kind. But I'd much rather see you with a good card. After all, you'll (hopefully) be getting a good JVC at a good price, and that should free up some funds for a better capture card than what Amazon/eBay (or even local thrift store) would offer.

In fact, given your total lack of TBCs, you're going to require the minimalist ES10/15 type TBC(ish) in there, and a "more resilient" card (and none of those "doesn't suck" cards fit that bill). Then you'll be well on your way, capturing on a budget. :)

The VCR seems to be in excellent condition. Unfortunately, I can’t inspect it in person, but the seller appears to be reliable and has many reviews.

Unfortunately, I’m a novice in this field, so I don’t think I fully understand what the ES10/15 is.

Do you have any specific models to recommend? Keep in mind that I live in Italy.

ES10/15 refers to specific Panasonic DVD recorders with a pass-through TBC(ish) ability. It strong+crippled line TBC, with non-TBC frame sync. This should pair nicely with the JVC 7500, all connected via s-video. In Europe, there are also some models other than DMR-ES10 and DMR-ES15 -- but the ES10/15 models are still best/safest. Look around some, see what Panasonic DVD recorders are available to you.

I'd still like to holiday in Italy someday.

So basically, would the setup follow this diagram?

VCR → Capture device → PC → ES10/15

Is there no software solution that could at least partially replace the TBC and ES10/15? My goal is to store everything in the cloud, not on DVDs.

This one is a good one?

Pinnacle Dazzle DVD recorder HD

P.S. If you ever happen to be near Rome, let me know!

VCR > ES10/15 as TBC(ish) > capture card (at computer)

Dazzle is junk.
Dazzle is not a Pinnacle card. Dazzle was a separate company that Pinnacle bought, and those awful Dazzle cards are not Pinnacle products. (Even Pinnacle no longer exists, Corel/Alludo now owns the brand.)

Is the DMR-ES20 not a good option?
How should it be connected?
Is there a significant difference?

Unfortunately, I can't find any ATI capture devices in my area. Can you recommend any other reliable brands/models?

Sorry for all these questions!

ES20 does not have passthrough, so not that model.

Ok, what about the capture device?

As always, the same biased talk about the Blackmagic Shuttle from hearsay, without having had any experience with it.

The Shuttle was a diva mainly because of the USB3 port which didn't work with every chipset at the time.

The best way to use it is via the HDMI input in conjunction with the HDMI output from a Panasonic DVD recorder. The other analogue inputs (Composite, Component, Y/C, Scart) should not be used for capturing VHS video.

In the German Gleitz video forum there are instructions on how best to use an Intensity Shuttle in conjunction with a DVD recorder and the HDMI outputs. It would be worth a try for little money. You would have to buy a Panasonic DVD recorder and an HDMI splitter (because of HDCP), which can be bought for less than 50 euros in Europe.

With the help of ‘Google Translate’ it should be no problem to read the German language pages:

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?...en-und-andere/

and an overview of the Panasonic DVD recorders:

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?...chland-europa/

Your setup should then look like this:
JVC HR-S 7500-Panasonic DMR-HDMI Splitter-Blackmaqgic Shuttle

If you're not happy with it, you can always buy something else. As your JVC does not have a line TBC, you will need a DVD recorder to stabilise your signals anyway, no matter what capture card you use.

Thank you very much for the thorough explanation. I'll read the link you provided tonight.

I found software on GitHub that claims to perform a sort of virtual TBC... Do you think that's feasible?

How does the Sony SLV-235 compare to the JVC?

No such "virtual TBC" exists. You're probably reading some vhs-decode stuff, which is a hobby project that requires that you rip apart the VCR, solder stuff, and the capture cards aren't cheap. Worse yet, it's not any better than just using good equipment, which you're trying to do here.

It's not "hearsay". I was literally helping yet another person who had serious issues with a BM card. It was rejecting the signal, and that's when quality gear was in use. It's rare to hear about good BM experiences, as opposed to bad ones.

You have to be very careful with this. Most HDMI output is processed, often messy, such as ghosted/blnded deinterlace output. This can't be general advice, but must be specific to certain DVD recorders.

That's a good list.

However, I don't think it's 100% accurate. In NTSC, and I'm not aware of the PAL being any different, the DMR-ES20 is the LSI model, which lacks the line TBC.

For our friend Filippods94, here's a "cheat sheet": :D

DVD only (best units, less to go wrong!)
- DMR-ES10
- DMR-ES15

VHS+DVD combo units **
- DMR-ES35V
- DMR-ES30

HDD+DVD(+VHS) combo units ***
- DMR-EH52
- DMR-EH54
- DMR-EH55
- DMR-EH56
- DMR-EH57
- DMR-EH575
- DMR-EH585
- DMR-EH60
- DMR-EH65
- DMR-EH67
- DMR-EH675
- DMR-EH685
- DMR-EH775
- DMR-EH80V
- DMR-EX75
- DMR-EX77E
- DMR-EX80
- DMR-EX85
- DMR-EX87
- DMR-EX95V

** The VHS+DVD combo unit VHS player are lousy. Only use it for the passthrough.

*** There are a lot more HDD units in PAL than NTSC(USA), but the problems are universal. Most of these IDE HDD units have failed over the years, as have most IDE hard drives (be it computers, or these DVD recorders). I would be very wary of any HDD now, as all are 15-20 years old. When most of these fail, the unit becomes a door stop, and the HDD cannot be replaced.

All of the combo units are exceedingly heavy, so none of these should really be bought online (and shipped). Local pickup only is suggested.

Hence why ES10/15 is the most ideal of all units. Less to go wrong.

I also cannot testify to every unit here, especially not most of the PAL HDD units. So I'm just trusting Bogilein has made an accurate list. (Although the inclusion of ES20 makes me wonder. Either that, or the PAL varies from NTSC.)

An SVHS video recorder is recommended, the Sony is only a VHS video recorder.

Here is an overview of the Panasonic/JVC SVHS video recorders with a few details:

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?...r-deutschland/

If you mean VHS Decode, well, the entry barriers are high.
Experts argue about whether it delivers better quality.

Hi, LS, I actually own the multisystem Samsung that you referenced - it's the Samsung SV-4000W. It served my purposes for viewing and in some cases converting my PAL tapes (mostly low-priority) to NTSC, but I agree, if the other unit is capable of handling S-video, that seems like the clear winner.

Alright, I canceled the purchase. Now the choice is between the JVC 7500 or a model with a built-in TBC.

-- merged --

I'm reading the list to find a used VCR with TBC available in my area that I might have missed earlier.

-- merged --

This list is extremely useful! Too bad about the ES20, as I had found one for €20... I'll keep searching.

Thank you all so much!

At the time I collected the information for the Panasonic DVD recorder list, I didn't have an ES20 and the information was taken from the Panasonic website. In the meantime I have an ES20 and have done a few tests, but unfortunately I can't find the test clip quickly. I have too many scattered on various hard discs.

I would differentiate between US (NTSC) and European devices (PAL). Because all the PAL devices in my list have a SCART output which is missing on the NTSC devices. I can't say whether these are the only differences as I don't own a US unit.

The same applies to the HDMI output. All PAL devices on the list output 720x576i via the HDMI port. I have 8 Panasonic DMR's from 2002-2009 I think I know what I am talking about.

I don't know where you buy your equipment and from which people or how the American postal service handles it. But I've never had a problem buying a DMR online and having it shipped to me. I've also bought video equipment from other European countries and had no problem with shipping.
I don't know what you do with your equipment or how you store it, I have over 20 DVD recorders and none of them have ever had a faulty hard drive, including IDE & SATA models.

In a way, it's hearsay. Because you haven't tested or used the Shuttle yourself. Most of the time the mistake is in front of it or in other words stupid people do stupid things, that also applies to me and is not meant to be mean.
I'm just passing on my experience with the equipment that I have myself and can show and prove with an example at any time. Especially when it comes to video captures, many people are like little children reaching for their mother's hand.

Ah, so I didn't understand—Is the **Panasonic ES20** suitable or not? The one I found is old, it doesn't have **HDMI**, only **S-Video** and SCART.

I can't answer that now because I can't find the test file I made.

According to the Panasonic website it has a TBC, but I don't know how good it is compared to the other Pansonic DMRs. I would have to test it again but that may take some time.

As already written with the Shuttle I would go the HDMI way and buy a Panasonic DMR with HDMI.

Well, hold on a second. I think you're missing a few facts here. (Sometimes people are so determined to prove me wrong, that they take some bad/wrong shortcuts in logic.)

I correctly stated that Blackmagic cards are lousy for SD capture/ingest. You disagreed with me -- and then stated that Blackmagic cards should not use the SD inputs. (So .... you're not disagreeing. :hmm:)

You stated to use the HDMI input. I've always stated that BM cards are fine at HD.

Now, you may be thinking "720x576 over HDMI is SD" -- but you'd be incorrect, from a technical signal stance. HDMI = HD (High Definition) Multimedia Interface. It is HD. In fact, the only signals compliant with HDMI are 1080p or higher. However, latter HDMI revisions allowed you to put out any random framerate and resolution, up to the allowed bandwidth.

None of that matters, you now say?

Well, again, not correct -- and not incorrect. The Blackmagic card will accept whatever is sent (to its own standard) over HDMI. The signal is already digitized, before BM even touches it. So it's not really a capture card with HD, but more like "capture" in the same way that DV footage was "captured" (transferred) from the digital tapes. BM mostly just containerizes, optionally transcodes.

So you're really relying on the HDMI-out player to be the actual digitizer -- for better or worse.

Now, in the realm of NTSC, everything gets butchered. Deinterlaced, wrong aspect ratio, etc. It's a mess.

But PAL allows 720x576i output -- but also 576p25 or 576p50, and other resolutions. You don't (usually?) get to choose this, the machine automagically does it for you (because you're too stupid to have choices -- or at least that's what the DVD manufacturer at the time thought of you). Whatever it want to do, is what you're stuck with. That varies from model to model, and even firmware to firmware. It's not a brand-wide standard (all Panasonics), or even all DVD recorders. In fact, it's not a standard at all -- it's non-compliant (illegal) output.

I know that some PAL Panasonics butcher the HDMI output. The ghost messes have been posted online many times.

However....
I do think this is a viable method. But it cannot be done at random. Not any random DVD recorder, not even any Panasonic.

- if you can get interlaced 720x576 output, and
- if the Panasonic digitizes with quality, and
- if the Blackmagic plays nice with the computer

Then you may be fine.

But that's a lot of "ifs", lots of variables. You have patience for it, I have patience for it ... but does the general user want to take that risk of time/funds? I say no.

But it is possible, I fully agree.

- They play football with it. American football, or "soccer" football, take you pick.
- Then an elephant sits on it.
- Then it's left in the rain overnight, for good measure.

Attachment 19157

Sadly, I can say the same. Packages from Europe arrive perfect, packages from a few U.S. cities away are smashed and non-working.

Attachment 19158

I jest, of course. (Those were parts/pre-furbs.)

SDI, Firewire and HDMI essentially work the same way, They are all digital, they all start from SD resolution and up, They are all lossless with the exception of DV and HDV over firewire, and they all relieve the CPU to a certain extent from converting analog to digital because the signal is already digital, This is why they suffer less from the problems of CPU based capturing workflows.

SDI-SD is the basis of the rec.601 of digitized tape formats streamed in a studio environement for digital broadcasting or archiving on the Sony D1 lossless digital format back when computers are only good for payroll or word processing. Lossless over firewire is similar to SDI-SD in terms of standard compliance, DV/HDV over firewire has it's own lossy standard, HDMI can be rec.601 compliant or not depends on the hardware and the era it was made. SDI and HDMI are the most supported, Firewire lossless or lossy DV/HDV is left in the dark by modern OSs.

Ah, yeah, HDMI is often not rec.601 compliance, so another quality loss from the method. This is something that must be tested for, not assumed. If anything, assume it's wrong, and hope for better.

Even SDI is all legacy now. I've not seen anything legit new for years, not since the 2010s.

I bought the JVC 7500.
I'm looking for a Panasonic ES10/15 (it should be connected via S-Video, right?).
I resold the BM capture card (it was easy).

Now, the remaining question is the capture card—I need to find something decent that works on Windows 11...
Elgato Video Capture USB?
MyGica EZ2?

-- merged --

I found:

Dmr ex75
Dmr ex86
Dmr ex87
Dmr eh65
Drm eh60
Dmr eh55

Should I keep searching, or is one of these good enough?

That was a mistake in relation to the shuttle. Even after almost 10 years, nobody has complained about the HDMI method in PAL country. Have fun buying a capture card. Then import one from Lord Smurf. It won't be an upgrade to the Shuttle in terms of quality except for the price...

Many words without experience have won against practical experience

I'm out then...

Panasonic ES10/15 should be connected via S-video, also route the audio through to prevent additional audio desync that the ES10/15 causes.

As for capture cards, those won't do at all. Especially the Elgato with its internal software (I used, results were crap and I wish I kept it to do at least one comparison between it and a suggested workflow)

Seeing how your bottleneck is wanting to use Windows 11. I'd suggest the I-O Data GV-USB2, only because it is probably the least bad card that'll work on Windows 11. As the suggested ATI and Pinnacle USBs only have drivers for Windows 7 and XP.

It wasn’t my intention to offend you. I got the impression that even you didn’t consider connecting S-Video to the Shuttle optimal. Since I couldn’t find any ES10/15 models with HDMI, I decided to sell the Shuttle.

In any case, I sold the Shuttle to an acquaintance for a low price, with the option to use it if I ever need it.

I also have PCs with Windows 10 and Linux, but they are less powerful. Could they still work?

No, neither.
- Elgato is infamous,
- MyGica is an Easycap rebadge --- and "MyGica" is one of those BS/nonsense "brands" that was created solely for Amazon/eBay sales.

I would probably stick to one of the EX models, if you get the HDD units. Older IDE is heavier, noisier, and most have failed over the years. I'd rather you have a "newer" unit, less likely to fail.

Your DVD recorder info was appreciated, and followed here. :congrats:

Nope, nope. :warning:

In my recent research:
- GV-USB2 has more Win11 issues than not
- the specific Pinnacles had Win10 issues, none have had Win11 thus far!
- ATI 600 USB are Win7 max, no 8/10/11. Sometimes even 7 fails, XP always best.)

Correct, s-video best.
HDMI should not be relied on, for multiple reasons outlined several posts back.

I never understand why some people get pissy when others don't follow their advice 100%. :unsure:

The goal here is to help you find the best option, not appease egos. I never act that way when people pass on my advice. They can take it or leave it (but often to their detriment, as many on this site will attest).

I finally (maybe) found an ES15. Is it still preferable even compared to the EX models?

Shipping isn't an issue for me (for €5, I get 24-hour delivery, and they handle items carefully), so buying a COMBO remotely is fine.

Strictly in terms of video capture quality: EX or ES?

Ok, I'll install Windows XP. Can slow PCs handle lossless capture?

Unfortunately, I can't find any ATI 600 cards in my area. I need good alternatives.

It is because less can go wrong. And it's easier to use.

There's really no difference.

How "slow" is slow?

Almost anything post-2010 is perfectly fine.

Most people wrongly think that CPU/RAM is what you need, but it's actually about the HDD/SSD in use, being offline, having a calibrated monitor, etc. So what are the full specs? And you really need to add a dedicated drive for the captures, let the OS drive only hold the OS.

It’s still an i5 with a dedicated AMD graphics card. It runs on an SSD, and I can connect an HDD via USB for the capture.

For the subsequent processing (Hybrid, Topaz, etc.), I have a consumer-grade monitor, but of good quality, on a gaming PC.

Here’s what I found:

ES10 with a broken DVD tray (€20)

ES15 in good condition (€20)

EX75 in good condition (€30)

No, you cannot capture to external USB, the throughput is not reliable, and USB hits CPU. There's no enough USB processing for both input from capture card, and output to HDD. Capture must be to an internal drive, be it SSD or HDD.

Yes, Hybrid.
No, not Topaz.

Either is fine.

Perfect:

Recording on SSD

No TOPAZ

I’ll go for the ES10

Other video capture cards I’ve found:
Osprey 210

SDI is just a digital port, it carries video signals that range from SD-SDI (SMPTE 259M) to 24-SDI (SMPTE ST 2083, 4K/8K) and keeps developping in the future, They're all backward compatible with SD-SDI hardware and software in any OS platform, you know in the business world backward compatibility is important since the upgrade process is too slow. The newer the more expensive however because of its purpose.

Strict SD-SDI hardware is now obsolete, It stopped around 2016, The same can be said for both analog to digital converters, and SDI computer adapters & stand alone recorders. But there is absolutly no difference in using a $15 legacy SD-SDI device or card or a $1500 newer SDI device or card for digital SD ingest, The resulting lossless file will be exactly the same assuming the same container is used, maybe with additional blank audio tracks for modern devices.

I'd not really seen SDI ports on anything in recent years, but I've also not really looked much. I'm not surprised that it'd still exist in broadcast/studios. At very least, I think use has narrowed from prior decades.

Example, https://www.aja.com/solutions/12g

But this is getting too off-topic. Let's not confuse our OP here. :noworry:

Not in consumer stuff, yes.

I'd say
- not in consumer
- not in prosumer (hobby)
- not in prosumer (small studio)

It all seems pretty high end now, curtailed to just a few companies with appliances and high-end cameras. Not that SDI was ever low-end, but the middle space is gone now, replaced by HDMI.

What do you think of Pinnacle USB devices?

-Pinnacle MovieBox 700
-Pinnacle MovieBox DV
-Pinnacle MovieBox USB Plus
-Others...

Which one is the best?