Which VCR is least bad to capture old VHS?

[Filippods94]

Hello, i'm Philip, i'm buying a VCR to digitize my PAL VHS tapes, but I don't want to spend too much. I'll be using a Blackmagic Shuttle USB 3.0 for capturing.

As for the VCRs, my choices are:

Samsung SV5000W
Panasonic HR-S7500 (eu version)

If I'm not mistaken, both lack a TBC, but I can't afford anything better. Which one is the lesser evil?

Thank you very much!

[latreche34]

The problem is the Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle here, Regardless what VCR you're going with, it will give you major video stability problems.

[Filippods94]

I found it at a good price ($35). Isn't it even worth trying?

What about the VCRs? The price is the same for both ($80).

Thanks!

[lordsmurf]

Welcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filippods94

Hello, i'm Philip, i'm buying a VCR to digitize my PAL VHS tapes, but I don't want to spend too much
As for the VCRs, my choices are:
Samsung SV5000W
Panasonic HR-S7500 (eu version)
If I'm not mistaken, both lack a TBC, but I can't afford anything better. Which one is the lesser evil?

The Samsung SV-5000W deck is complete garbage. Do not buy. I have one of these, and the quality of output is generally beyond pitiful. Samsung didn't even make VCRs, this is a Panasonic rebadge (with some Samsung alterations). It was wildly overpriced when new 25 years ago ($500+), and is still often in that $500 range. But it's just a plain composite VCR, and a terrible one at that. The "multi-format" (PAL<>NTSC) is terrible, even for 1990s standards. This unit has been discussed (and rightfully dismissed) many times in the forum.

HR-S7500 is JVC model number -- I'm not aware of a Panasonic model. (And if so, it has to be a rebadge.) The JVC 7500 (PAL) is non-TBC S-VHS model, s-video out, and it would definitely be far superior.

Quote:

but I don't want to spend too much. I'll be using a Blackmagic Shuttle USB 3.0 for capturing.
I found it at a good price ($35). Isn't it even worth trying?

That card is infamous junk, and will not work.

I literally just read a PM from a person, who had a Blackmagic, and had been facing problems, even with other quality gear in use (including one of my Cypress frame TBCs). The Blackmagic refused to capture properly. He bought a known-inferior Elgato to test with, and it confirmed all of his other gear (and computer) were perfectly fine. It was the Blackmagic card at fault.

Blackmagic made HD cards that "also did" SD (and quite poorly). At best, it had visual issues. At worst, no signal (black frames).

So no, it's not worth testing. It's almost always a complete waste of time. It wasn't even worth $35. Sadly, even an Easycap tends to be better --- and it should not be used either.

[Filippods94]

Thank you so much for your response! You’ve been a huge help and saved me from wasting time and money.

I made a mistake—I actually meant the JVC HR-S7500. Speaking of VCRs, are there any other factors I should consider? Are brands like Sharp or Sony any good? Or, given the price, should I just go for the JVC 7500 without hesitation?

As for the Blackmagic, I didn’t expect it to be that bad! Would you recommend another Blackmagic card (e.g., Intensity Pro, intensity extreme, pinnacle...) or should I switch brands entirely? If so, which capture cards would you recommend?

Thanks again!

[lordsmurf]

I would grab that JVC, though with hesitation and careful review. If you're buying this from a random place, with no ability to refund, you must be assured that it functions correctly. Do not assume. Sometimes a low price is "too good to be true", as that 7500 is generally worth at least double (€150 to 250 range). So at a lowly €75/$80, you need to ask what's wrong with it.

For example: https://vcrshop.com/product/vcr/vide...videorecorder/

BM cards should not be used, period. It's just a bad brand for SD work.

In the 2020s, selecting a capture card that "just works" is not easy. The era of capturing video was the 2000s, and everything degraded across the 2010s. In the 2020s, you have lots of gear that is failed, doesn't work with new OS, or is just Chinese junk. (That's why I have capture cards in the marketplace, or at least try to -- and I'm about to be sold out again. I'm the "easy button" so our community can actually capture video, rather than have issues and merely "try to capture".) There are certain ATI/Pinnacle cards, but which you need depends on factors. And some of those are not safe to buy "in the wild", because there are versions (some good, some bad, not easy to identify which is which).

If you just want a cheap card that "doesn't totally suck", then I have suggestions. But you'll run into issues, limitations, though not as terrible as the Blackmagic kind. But I'd much rather see you with a good card. After all, you'll (hopefully) be getting a good JVC at a good price, and that should free up some funds for a better capture card than what Amazon/eBay (or even local thrift store) would offer.

In fact, given your total lack of TBCs, you're going to require the minimalist ES10/15 type TBC(ish) in there, and a "more resilient" card (and none of those "doesn't suck" cards fit that bill). Then you'll be well on your way, capturing on a budget.

[Filippods94]

The VCR seems to be in excellent condition. Unfortunately, I can’t inspect it in person, but the seller appears to be reliable and has many reviews.

Unfortunately, I’m a novice in this field, so I don’t think I fully understand what the ES10/15 is.

Do you have any specific models to recommend? Keep in mind that I live in Italy.

[lordsmurf]

ES10/15 refers to specific Panasonic DVD recorders with a pass-through TBC(ish) ability. It strong+crippled line TBC, with non-TBC frame sync. This should pair nicely with the JVC 7500, all connected via s-video. In Europe, there are also some models other than DMR-ES10 and DMR-ES15 -- but the ES10/15 models are still best/safest. Look around some, see what Panasonic DVD recorders are available to you.

I'd still like to holiday in Italy someday.

[Filippods94]

So basically, would the setup follow this diagram?

VCR → Capture device → PC → ES10/15

Is there no software solution that could at least partially replace the TBC and ES10/15? My goal is to store everything in the cloud, not on DVDs.

This one is a good one?

Pinnacle Dazzle DVD recorder HD

P.S. If you ever happen to be near Rome, let me know!

[lordsmurf]

VCR > ES10/15 as TBC(ish) > capture card (at computer)

Dazzle is junk.
Dazzle is not a Pinnacle card. Dazzle was a separate company that Pinnacle bought, and those awful Dazzle cards are not Pinnacle products. (Even Pinnacle no longer exists, Corel/Alludo now owns the brand.)

[Filippods94]

Is the DMR-ES20 not a good option?
How should it be connected?
Is there a significant difference?

Unfortunately, I can't find any ATI capture devices in my area. Can you recommend any other reliable brands/models?

Sorry for all these questions!

[lordsmurf]

ES20 does not have passthrough, so not that model.

[Filippods94]

Ok, what about the capture device?

[Bogilein]

As always, the same biased talk about the Blackmagic Shuttle from hearsay, without having had any experience with it.

The Shuttle was a diva mainly because of the USB3 port which didn't work with every chipset at the time.

The best way to use it is via the HDMI input in conjunction with the HDMI output from a Panasonic DVD recorder. The other analogue inputs (Composite, Component, Y/C, Scart) should not be used for capturing VHS video.

In the German Gleitz video forum there are instructions on how best to use an Intensity Shuttle in conjunction with a DVD recorder and the HDMI outputs. It would be worth a try for little money. You would have to buy a Panasonic DVD recorder and an HDMI splitter (because of HDCP), which can be bought for less than 50 euros in Europe.

With the help of ‘Google Translate’ it should be no problem to read the German language pages:

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?...en-und-andere/

and an overview of the Panasonic DVD recorders:

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?...chland-europa/

Your setup should then look like this:
JVC HR-S 7500-Panasonic DMR-HDMI Splitter-Blackmaqgic Shuttle

If you're not happy with it, you can always buy something else. As your JVC does not have a line TBC, you will need a DVD recorder to stabilise your signals anyway, no matter what capture card you use.

[Filippods94]

Thank you very much for the thorough explanation. I'll read the link you provided tonight.

I found software on GitHub that claims to perform a sort of virtual TBC... Do you think that's feasible?

How does the Sony SLV-235 compare to the JVC?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filippods94

I found software on GitHub that claims to perform a sort of virtual TBC... Do you think that's feasible?

No such "virtual TBC" exists. You're probably reading some vhs-decode stuff, which is a hobby project that requires that you rip apart the VCR, solder stuff, and the capture cards aren't cheap. Worse yet, it's not any better than just using good equipment, which you're trying to do here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogilein

As always, the same biased talk about the Blackmagic Shuttle from hearsay, without having had any experience with it.

It's not "hearsay". I was literally helping yet another person who had serious issues with a BM card. It was rejecting the signal, and that's when quality gear was in use. It's rare to hear about good BM experiences, as opposed to bad ones.

Quote:

The best way to use it is via the HDMI input in conjunction with the HDMI output from a Panasonic DVD recorder.

You have to be very careful with this. Most HDMI output is processed, often messy, such as ghosted/blnded deinterlace output. This can't be general advice, but must be specific to certain DVD recorders.

Quote:

and an overview of the Panasonic DVD recorders:

That's a good list.

However, I don't think it's 100% accurate. In NTSC, and I'm not aware of the PAL being any different, the DMR-ES20 is the LSI model, which lacks the line TBC.

For our friend Filippods94, here's a "cheat sheet":

DVD only (best units, less to go wrong!)
- DMR-ES10
- DMR-ES15

VHS+DVD combo units **
- DMR-ES35V
- DMR-ES30

HDD+DVD(+VHS) combo units ***
- DMR-EH52
- DMR-EH54
- DMR-EH55
- DMR-EH56
- DMR-EH57
- DMR-EH575
- DMR-EH585
- DMR-EH60
- DMR-EH65
- DMR-EH67
- DMR-EH675
- DMR-EH685
- DMR-EH775
- DMR-EH80V
- DMR-EX75
- DMR-EX77E
- DMR-EX80
- DMR-EX85
- DMR-EX87
- DMR-EX95V

** The VHS+DVD combo unit VHS player are lousy. Only use it for the passthrough.

*** There are a lot more HDD units in PAL than NTSC(USA), but the problems are universal. Most of these IDE HDD units have failed over the years, as have most IDE hard drives (be it computers, or these DVD recorders). I would be very wary of any HDD now, as all are 15-20 years old. When most of these fail, the unit becomes a door stop, and the HDD cannot be replaced.

All of the combo units are exceedingly heavy, so none of these should really be bought online (and shipped). Local pickup only is suggested.

Hence why ES10/15 is the most ideal of all units. Less to go wrong.

I also cannot testify to every unit here, especially not most of the PAL HDD units. So I'm just trusting Bogilein has made an accurate list. (Although the inclusion of ES20 makes me wonder. Either that, or the PAL varies from NTSC.)

[Bogilein]

An SVHS video recorder is recommended, the Sony is only a VHS video recorder.

Here is an overview of the Panasonic/JVC SVHS video recorders with a few details:

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?...r-deutschland/

If you mean VHS Decode, well, the entry barriers are high.
Experts argue about whether it delivers better quality.

[SVHS Fan]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

The Samsung SV-5000W deck is complete garbage. ... The "multi-format" (PAL<>NTSC) is terrible, even for 1990s standards. This unit has been discussed (and rightfully dismissed) many times in the forum.

HR-S7500 is JVC model number -- I'm not aware of a Panasonic model. (And if so, it has to be a rebadge.) The JVC 7500 (PAL) is non-TBC S-VHS model, s-video out, and it would definitely be far superior.

Hi, LS, I actually own the multisystem Samsung that you referenced - it's the Samsung SV-4000W. It served my purposes for viewing and in some cases converting my PAL tapes (mostly low-priority) to NTSC, but I agree, if the other unit is capable of handling S-video, that seems like the clear winner.

[Filippods94]

Alright, I canceled the purchase. Now the choice is between the JVC 7500 or a model with a built-in TBC.

-- merged --

I'm reading the list to find a used VCR with TBC available in my area that I might have missed earlier.

-- merged --

This list is extremely useful! Too bad about the ES20, as I had found one for €20... I'll keep searching.

Thank you all so much!

[Bogilein]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

It's not "hearsay". I was literally helping yet another person who had serious issues with a BM card. It was rejecting the signal, and that's when quality gear was in use. It's rare to hear about good BM experiences, as opposed to bad ones.

You have to be very careful with this. Most HDMI output is processed, often messy, such as ghosted/blnded deinterlace output. This can't be general advice, but must be specific to certain DVD recorders.

However, I don't think it's 100% accurate. In NTSC, and I'm not aware of the PAL being any different, the DMR-ES20 is the LSI model, which lacks the line TBC.

*** There are a lot more HDD units in PAL than NTSC(USA), but the problems are universal. Most of these IDE HDD units have failed over the years, as have most IDE hard drives (be it computers, or these DVD recorders). I would be very wary of any HDD now, as all are 15-20 years old. When most of these fail, the unit becomes a door stop, and the HDD cannot be replaced.

All of the combo units are exceedingly heavy, so none of these should really be bought online (and shipped). Local pickup only is suggested.

I also cannot testify to every unit here, especially not most of the PAL HDD units. So I'm just trusting Bogilein has made an accurate list. (Although the inclusion of ES20 makes me wonder. Either that, or the PAL varies from NTSC.)

At the time I collected the information for the Panasonic DVD recorder list, I didn't have an ES20 and the information was taken from the Panasonic website. In the meantime I have an ES20 and have done a few tests, but unfortunately I can't find the test clip quickly. I have too many scattered on various hard discs.

I would differentiate between US (NTSC) and European devices (PAL). Because all the PAL devices in my list have a SCART output which is missing on the NTSC devices. I can't say whether these are the only differences as I don't own a US unit.

The same applies to the HDMI output. All PAL devices on the list output 720x576i via the HDMI port. I have 8 Panasonic DMR's from 2002-2009 I think I know what I am talking about.

I don't know where you buy your equipment and from which people or how the American postal service handles it. But I've never had a problem buying a DMR online and having it shipped to me. I've also bought video equipment from other European countries and had no problem with shipping.
I don't know what you do with your equipment or how you store it, I have over 20 DVD recorders and none of them have ever had a faulty hard drive, including IDE & SATA models.

In a way, it's hearsay. Because you haven't tested or used the Shuttle yourself. Most of the time the mistake is in front of it or in other words stupid people do stupid things, that also applies to me and is not meant to be mean.
I'm just passing on my experience with the equipment that I have myself and can show and prove with an example at any time. Especially when it comes to video captures, many people are like little children reaching for their mother's hand.