Which VCR is least bad to capture old VHS?

[Filippods94]

Ah, so I didn't understand—Is the **Panasonic ES20** suitable or not? The one I found is old, it doesn't have **HDMI**, only **S-Video** and SCART.

[Bogilein]

I can't answer that now because I can't find the test file I made.

According to the Panasonic website it has a TBC, but I don't know how good it is compared to the other Pansonic DMRs. I would have to test it again but that may take some time.

As already written with the Shuttle I would go the HDMI way and buy a Panasonic DMR with HDMI.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogilein

I would differentiate between US (NTSC) and European devices (PAL).
The same applies to the HDMI output. All PAL devices on the list output 720x576i via the HDMI port. I have 8 Panasonic DMR's from 2002-2009 I think I know what I am talking about.

Well, hold on a second. I think you're missing a few facts here. (Sometimes people are so determined to prove me wrong, that they take some bad/wrong shortcuts in logic.)

I correctly stated that Blackmagic cards are lousy for SD capture/ingest. You disagreed with me -- and then stated that Blackmagic cards should not use the SD inputs. (So .... you're not disagreeing. )

You stated to use the HDMI input. I've always stated that BM cards are fine at HD.

Now, you may be thinking "720x576 over HDMI is SD" -- but you'd be incorrect, from a technical signal stance. HDMI = HD (High Definition) Multimedia Interface. It is HD. In fact, the only signals compliant with HDMI are 1080p or higher. However, latter HDMI revisions allowed you to put out any random framerate and resolution, up to the allowed bandwidth.

None of that matters, you now say?

Well, again, not correct -- and not incorrect. The Blackmagic card will accept whatever is sent (to its own standard) over HDMI. The signal is already digitized, before BM even touches it. So it's not really a capture card with HD, but more like "capture" in the same way that DV footage was "captured" (transferred) from the digital tapes. BM mostly just containerizes, optionally transcodes.

So you're really relying on the HDMI-out player to be the actual digitizer -- for better or worse.

Now, in the realm of NTSC, everything gets butchered. Deinterlaced, wrong aspect ratio, etc. It's a mess.

But PAL allows 720x576i output -- but also 576p25 or 576p50, and other resolutions. You don't (usually?) get to choose this, the machine automagically does it for you (because you're too stupid to have choices -- or at least that's what the DVD manufacturer at the time thought of you). Whatever it want to do, is what you're stuck with. That varies from model to model, and even firmware to firmware. It's not a brand-wide standard (all Panasonics), or even all DVD recorders. In fact, it's not a standard at all -- it's non-compliant (illegal) output.

I know that some PAL Panasonics butcher the HDMI output. The ghost messes have been posted online many times.

However....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogilein

As already written with the Shuttle I would go the HDMI way and buy a Panasonic DMR with HDMI.

I do think this is a viable method. But it cannot be done at random. Not any random DVD recorder, not even any Panasonic.

- if you can get interlaced 720x576 output, and
- if the Panasonic digitizes with quality, and
- if the Blackmagic plays nice with the computer

Then you may be fine.

But that's a lot of "ifs", lots of variables. You have patience for it, I have patience for it ... but does the general user want to take that risk of time/funds? I say no.

But it is possible, I fully agree.

Quote:

I don't know ... how the American postal service handles it.

- They play football with it. American football, or "soccer" football, take you pick.
- Then an elephant sits on it.
- Then it's left in the rain overnight, for good measure.

quality-vcr-shipping.jpg

Quote:

I've also bought video equipment from other European countries and had no problem with shipping.

Sadly, I can say the same. Packages from Europe arrive perfect, packages from a few U.S. cities away are smashed and non-working.

Quote:

I don't know what you do with your equipment or how you store it,

You must be logged in to view this content; either login or register for the forum. The attached screen shots, before/after images, photos and graphics are created/posted for the benefit of site members. And you are invited to join our digital media community.

I jest, of course. (Those were parts/pre-furbs.)

[latreche34]

SDI, Firewire and HDMI essentially work the same way, They are all digital, they all start from SD resolution and up, They are all lossless with the exception of DV and HDV over firewire, and they all relieve the CPU to a certain extent from converting analog to digital because the signal is already digital, This is why they suffer less from the problems of CPU based capturing workflows.

SDI-SD is the basis of the rec.601 of digitized tape formats streamed in a studio environement for digital broadcasting or archiving on the Sony D1 lossless digital format back when computers are only good for payroll or word processing. Lossless over firewire is similar to SDI-SD in terms of standard compliance, DV/HDV over firewire has it's own lossy standard, HDMI can be rec.601 compliant or not depends on the hardware and the era it was made. SDI and HDMI are the most supported, Firewire lossless or lossy DV/HDV is left in the dark by modern OSs.

[lordsmurf]

Ah, yeah, HDMI is often not rec.601 compliance, so another quality loss from the method. This is something that must be tested for, not assumed. If anything, assume it's wrong, and hope for better.

Even SDI is all legacy now. I've not seen anything legit new for years, not since the 2010s.

[Filippods94]

I bought the JVC 7500.
I'm looking for a Panasonic ES10/15 (it should be connected via S-Video, right?).
I resold the BM capture card (it was easy).

Now, the remaining question is the capture card—I need to find something decent that works on Windows 11...
Elgato Video Capture USB?
MyGica EZ2?

-- merged --

I found:

Dmr ex75
Dmr ex86
Dmr ex87
Dmr eh65
Drm eh60
Dmr eh55

Should I keep searching, or is one of these good enough?

[Bogilein]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filippods94

I bought the JVC 7500.

I resold the BM capture card (it was easy).

Now, the remaining question is the capture card—I need to find something decent that works on Windows 11...
Elgato Video Capture USB?
MyGica EZ2?

That was a mistake in relation to the shuttle. Even after almost 10 years, nobody has complained about the HDMI method in PAL country. Have fun buying a capture card. Then import one from Lord Smurf. It won't be an upgrade to the Shuttle in terms of quality except for the price...

Many words without experience have won against practical experience

I'm out then...

[Aya_Rei]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filippods94

I bought the JVC 7500.
I'm looking for a Panasonic ES10/15 (it should be connected via S-Video, right?).
I resold the BM capture card (it was easy).

Now, the remaining question is the capture card—I need to find something decent that works on Windows 11...
Elgato Video Capture USB?
MyGica EZ2?

Panasonic ES10/15 should be connected via S-video, also route the audio through to prevent additional audio desync that the ES10/15 causes.

As for capture cards, those won't do at all. Especially the Elgato with its internal software (I used, results were crap and I wish I kept it to do at least one comparison between it and a suggested workflow)

Seeing how your bottleneck is wanting to use Windows 11. I'd suggest the I-O Data GV-USB2, only because it is probably the least bad card that'll work on Windows 11. As the suggested ATI and Pinnacle USBs only have drivers for Windows 7 and XP.

[Filippods94]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogilein

That was a mistake in relation to the shuttle. Even after almost 10 years, nobody has complained about the HDMI method in PAL country. Have fun buying a capture card. Then import one from Lord Smurf. It won't be an upgrade to the Shuttle in terms of quality except for the price...

Many words without experience have won against practical experience

I'm out then...

It wasn’t my intention to offend you. I got the impression that even you didn’t consider connecting S-Video to the Shuttle optimal. Since I couldn’t find any ES10/15 models with HDMI, I decided to sell the Shuttle.

In any case, I sold the Shuttle to an acquaintance for a low price, with the option to use it if I ever need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

Panasonic ES10/15 should be connected via S-video, also route the audio through to prevent additional audio desync that the ES10/15 causes.

As for capture cards, those won't do at all. Especially the Elgato with its internal software (I used, results were crap and I wish I kept it to do at least one comparison between it and a suggested workflow)

Seeing how your bottleneck is wanting to use Windows 11. I'd suggest the I-O Data GV-USB2, only because it is probably the least bad card that'll work on Windows 11. As the suggested ATI and Pinnacle USBs only have drivers for Windows 7 and XP.

I also have PCs with Windows 10 and Linux, but they are less powerful. Could they still work?

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filippods94

Elgato Video Capture USB?
MyGica EZ2?

No, neither.
- Elgato is infamous,
- MyGica is an Easycap rebadge --- and "MyGica" is one of those BS/nonsense "brands" that was created solely for Amazon/eBay sales.

Quote:

I found:
Dmr ex75
Dmr ex86
Dmr ex87
Dmr eh65
Drm eh60
Dmr eh55
Should I keep searching, or is one of these good enough?

I would probably stick to one of the EX models, if you get the HDD units. Older IDE is heavier, noisier, and most have failed over the years. I'd rather you have a "newer" unit, less likely to fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bogilein

Many words without experience have won against practical experience
I'm out then...

Your DVD recorder info was appreciated, and followed here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aya_Rei

Seeing how your bottleneck is wanting to use Windows 11. I'd suggest the I-O Data GV-USB2, only because it is probably the least bad card that'll work on Windows 11. As the suggested ATI and Pinnacle USBs only have drivers for Windows 7 and XP.

Nope, nope.

In my recent research:
- GV-USB2 has more Win11 issues than not
- the specific Pinnacles had Win10 issues, none have had Win11 thus far!
- ATI 600 USB are Win7 max, no 8/10/11. Sometimes even 7 fails, XP always best.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filippods94

It wasn’t my intention to offend you. I got the impression that even you didn’t consider connecting S-Video to the Shuttle optimal. Since I couldn’t find any ES10/15 models with HDMI, I decided to sell the Shuttle.

Correct, s-video best.
HDMI should not be relied on, for multiple reasons outlined several posts back.

I never understand why some people get pissy when others don't follow their advice 100%.

The goal here is to help you find the best option, not appease egos. I never act that way when people pass on my advice. They can take it or leave it (but often to their detriment, as many on this site will attest).

[Filippods94]

I finally (maybe) found an ES15. Is it still preferable even compared to the EX models?

Shipping isn't an issue for me (for €5, I get 24-hour delivery, and they handle items carefully), so buying a COMBO remotely is fine.

Strictly in terms of video capture quality: EX or ES?

Ok, I'll install Windows XP. Can slow PCs handle lossless capture?

Unfortunately, I can't find any ATI 600 cards in my area. I need good alternatives.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filippods94

I finally (maybe) found an ES15. Is it still preferable even compared to the EX models?

It is because less can go wrong. And it's easier to use.

Quote:

Strictly in terms of video capture quality: EX or ES?

There's really no difference.

Quote:

Ok, I'll install Windows XP. Can slow PCs handle lossless capture?

How "slow" is slow?

Almost anything post-2010 is perfectly fine.

Most people wrongly think that CPU/RAM is what you need, but it's actually about the HDD/SSD in use, being offline, having a calibrated monitor, etc. So what are the full specs? And you really need to add a dedicated drive for the captures, let the OS drive only hold the OS.

[Filippods94]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

It is because less can go wrong. And it's easier to use.


There's really no difference.


How "slow" is slow?

Almost anything post-2010 is perfectly fine.

Most people wrongly think that CPU/RAM is what you need, but it's actually about the HDD/SSD in use, being offline, having a calibrated monitor, etc. So what are the full specs? And you really need to add a dedicated drive for the captures, let the OS drive only hold the OS.

It’s still an i5 with a dedicated AMD graphics card. It runs on an SSD, and I can connect an HDD via USB for the capture.

For the subsequent processing (Hybrid, Topaz, etc.), I have a consumer-grade monitor, but of good quality, on a gaming PC.

Here’s what I found:

ES10 with a broken DVD tray (€20)

ES15 in good condition (€20)

EX75 in good condition (€30)

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Filippods94

and I can connect an HDD via USB for the capture.

No, you cannot capture to external USB, the throughput is not reliable, and USB hits CPU. There's no enough USB processing for both input from capture card, and output to HDD. Capture must be to an internal drive, be it SSD or HDD.

Quote:

For the subsequent processing (Hybrid, Topaz, etc.),

Yes, Hybrid.
No, not Topaz.

Quote:

ES10 with a broken DVD tray (€20)
ES15 in good condition (€20)

Either is fine.

[Filippods94]

Perfect:

Recording on SSD

No TOPAZ

I’ll go for the ES10

Other video capture cards I’ve found:
Osprey 210

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Even SDI is all legacy now. I've not seen anything legit new for years, not since the 2010s.

SDI is just a digital port, it carries video signals that range from SD-SDI (SMPTE 259M) to 24-SDI (SMPTE ST 2083, 4K/8K) and keeps developping in the future, They're all backward compatible with SD-SDI hardware and software in any OS platform, you know in the business world backward compatibility is important since the upgrade process is too slow. The newer the more expensive however because of its purpose.

Strict SD-SDI hardware is now obsolete, It stopped around 2016, The same can be said for both analog to digital converters, and SDI computer adapters & stand alone recorders. But there is absolutly no difference in using a $15 legacy SD-SDI device or card or a $1500 newer SDI device or card for digital SD ingest, The resulting lossless file will be exactly the same assuming the same container is used, maybe with additional blank audio tracks for modern devices.

[lordsmurf]

I'd not really seen SDI ports on anything in recent years, but I've also not really looked much. I'm not surprised that it'd still exist in broadcast/studios. At very least, I think use has narrowed from prior decades.

Example, https://www.aja.com/solutions/12g

But this is getting too off-topic. Let's not confuse our OP here.

[latreche34]

Not in consumer stuff, yes.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

Not in consumer stuff, yes.

I'd say
- not in consumer
- not in prosumer (hobby)
- not in prosumer (small studio)

It all seems pretty high end now, curtailed to just a few companies with appliances and high-end cameras. Not that SDI was ever low-end, but the middle space is gone now, replaced by HDMI.

[Filippods94]

What do you think of Pinnacle USB devices?

-Pinnacle MovieBox 700
-Pinnacle MovieBox DV
-Pinnacle MovieBox USB Plus
-Others...

Which one is the best?