How is video stored on Hi8 cassettes?
 

Quick question.

How is video stored on Hi8? Composite or chroma and luma stored separately? My parents have Hi8 Sony Camcorder with no S-Video out. They want me to digitize some of their stuff. If chroma and luma stored separately, should I be better off buying a Hi8 player with S-Video out? Any recommendations? Thanks.

--Leonid

Its stored separate. No S-video out sounds like its one of the last Hi-8 camcorders Sony made (likely the CCD-TRV138 or 338). They eliminated the S-Video port to cut costs! (its the only change from the previous year's model) Finding a slightly older Sony camcorder with S-Video is recommended, just make sure it has the built in TBC and DNR circuit (check the manuals on Sony's site). Almost all Hi-8 Sony Handycams from 1998 to 2006 have it. Another option is to find a Digital 8 camcorder that has analog Hi-8 playback, but once again, check the manual as Sony didn't offer this feature on their low end Digital 8 camcorders.

I don't know if you are in the US or not, but resale values for 8mm equipment is pretty high here, so it might not be easy to find a cheap unit.

I'm in US. That's interesting. I purchased this camera for my parents in around 1994-95. Not later than 1996. So then basically I want to be looking for for the devices with S-Video out. I actually would prefer no DNR or even TBC. The reason is I wouldn't want middleman to do analog->digital->analog between analog outputs and the capture card.

What about these devices?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-EVO-950...ht_2451wt_1207

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Sony-Handyca....m14#prodDescr

There's also this one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-ES-EV-S...ht_3593wt_1207

But it says digital 3d comb filter. Does it mean it takes composite and runs it through 3d comb filter? I would actually prefer to take S-Video direct and let capture card do all the work.

Thank you.

--Leonid
--Leonid

Its kinda odd that a 1995-96 model wouldn't have S-Video output, typically all the Hi-8 models had it, while standard Video-8 models just had composite. I don't know if Sony started it that far back, but is the camera labelled Hi8"XR"? If so, the tapes are best played on another "XR" camcorder to get the full quality of the recording. XR was a format extension (higher quality video) Sony implemented on their Video-8/Hi-8 camcorders from 1995ish to 1998.

Check this one out. I personally own a CCD-TRV65, I can vouch that its a reliable model, its also better built then the later models (loads from top, no flimsy feeling tape tray). It has XR, stereo audio playback, S-video, TBC/DNR and if you ever want to use it as a camcorder, its excellent at that too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/290658452122

$200 is a bit high for a bare bones Hi-8 camcorder, you can likely find one for $100-150 if you a patient. Serach for "Sony CCD-TRV" on ebay to see all the different models. I wouldn't worry too much about the camera's DNR and TBC causing image quality problems, the built in system does a great job. The DNR and TBC can also be individually toggled on and off on the camcorders.

I wouldn't bother with a standalone deck. The camcorders and Sony's later "Video Walkman" players (both share the same transport and playback electronics) are much newer and more advanced the any standalone deck was. I wouldn't ever bother looking at other makes in the 8mm field, Sony made the best camcorders/players bar none.

I'll call my parents tomorrow and find out the exact model number. I will let you know. Thanks for the help.

To be completely honest, the higher-grade Sony Hi8 cameras are so good that s-video doesn't matter very much. Even a composite signal is going to capture beautifully -- assuming you have quality capturing hardware, of course. And then you want to convert Video8 on a Hi8 camera, as the Video8 cameras are craptastic for playback quality.

Additionally, the color quality of Video8 and Hi8 was so superior to VHS that 8mm-based tapes are rather easy to convert to DVD or other digital formats (NR notwithstanding). To be specific, compared to VHS/S-VHS, the Video/Hi8 formats:

• Have been black level
• Have virtually zero chroma noise
• Have virtually zero color bleeding aka chroma/color offset
• Have very rich colors, without being falsely saturated or saturated due to chroma problems

Video8 and Hi do still suffer from grain (sometimes worse than VHS/S-VHS) and comparable consumer tape resolutions.

This is something I wish we'd have known before shooting 20 years of family home movies to VHS, VHS-C and S-VHS-C !!!

I often find myself jealous of the quality of family videos shot by customers. Ours don't look anywhere near as good. :(
Betamax and Sony antics in general turned us off all Sony products for probably 25 years.

If you have a CCD-TRV138 or 338, use it -- it's gorgeous quality. :)

Capture to lossless AVI with good hardware, process for noise in VirtualDub and/or Avisynth, and then encode to 2-pass VBR for DVD-Video or BDAV/BDMV (Blu-ray), at higher bitrates. The video quality is simply stunning, comparable to anything pushed out of DV cameras -- especially the budget grade DV cameras.

Even the tapes take up less space. :p

Too bad I can't email myself back in the 1980s. This is one of the few missteps I took with video, and it's just because I didn't know any better at the time.

I think $200 for a Hi8 camera is fair, if it's in good condition. I see a lot of abused Video8 and Hi8 cameras, which have run out of alignment, making the playback or recording of tape impossible. The camera I use currently is a TRV-138, and it cost me about $250 in trade (exchanged some services) back in 2007. I had a hard time finding a good copy for under $500. I came across a number of lousy ones. This happened to be from a studio user, and it was the backup with low hours -- I was lucky. He used it as a student for B-roll, then decided video wasn't his cup of tea.

Hmm... I know someone who fixes Sony HandyCams and flips them on ebay. ;) Based on what I've seen the units suffer from two problems.

1. The tape reels sometimes get stuck. The preferred fix in the field for this is to whack the tape compartment camcorder with the palm of your hand to loosen them up. This repair also works on Sony MiniDV camcorders.

2. Loose pinch roller: This problem is surprisingly common. The retainer for the rubber pinch roller falls out. The field fix is to use a tube from a Bic pin to replace the missing insert. The proper repair is a $27 pinch roller assembly.

Just keep in mind that the TRV-138 only has mono audio out. A majority of Sony's Hi-8 camcorders recorded in stereo. In hindsight I was lucky to pick up a Sony DCR-TRV840 Digital 8 camcorder (with analog playback) for cheap two weeks ago. It was in great shape, hardly used. My only nitpick is that the tape transport is really loud when recording, a common complaint with D8 camcorders (the video drum runs 2.5X faster then Hi-8). I wish I had more Hi-8 tapes to transfer. Of all the tapes I did, those came out the best. Aside from the minor noise issues 8mm suffers from, the final DVDs look great.

For now my plan is to be capturing into Huffyuv AVI and store it on external hard drives (with back up copy of course). Later I will see whether to go for DVD or Blu-Ray or both. By the way, as far as DVD, I never go for 2-pass VBR. I use TMPGEnc with CQ at 100%. As for Blu-Ray format, I have never done it. When I get to it, no worries I will be asking questions as I am not familiar with codecs Blu-Ray uses. :)


Hello! I just called my parents. This is what they told me.
Sony CCD-TR93 Video Timer Recorder 27718.

In the manual they say it is: Video Camera Recorder 8.

The manual was printed in 1995.

So I guess it is not XR. All the Hi8 cassettes they want me to digitize were recorded on that camera. I already digitized 3 of such cassettes, but I guess the way I did them was not optimal. So basically you suggest I go for XR and rerecord them and record the new ones with S-Video out. Note, that I only need playback functionality with S-Video out. I am not going to be shooting any video. Given that, does http://www.ebay.com/itm/290658452122 still hold true? Thanks a lot.

--Leonid

The CCD-TR93 is a standard Video-8 camcorder, that would explain the lack of S-Video out. It does have stereo audio however, so seek out a model with that (usually Hi-8). Someone snapped up that CCD-TRV65, it was a pretty good deal. Just look for Sony Hi-8 camcorders with stereo audio out.

By the way, what about tracking? Do all of these camcorder have automatic tracking adjustment? I am asking because the cassettes were recorded on one camcorder but will be played back on the other.

--Leonid

The 8mm format uses an automatic tracking system. As long as the recording camcorder wasn't completely out of alignment, the tape should play without any issues.

So should I be looking for just CCD-TRV65 model? Also some of these models are labeled as XR and some others are not labeled as XR?

Like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-Handyca...item2318b705c6

vs this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-CCD-TRV...item4ab2efd2de

Its all the same model. Both of those are fine. Do a search for "Sony CCD-TRV Hi-8", that should bring up most of the preferred Sony models. From what I can see, all Hi-8 models from CCD-TRV65 to CCD-TRV99 have stereo audio out. The CCD-TRV100/300 series is hit or miss. Before bidding, verify that the camcorder supports stereo playback in the manual (Sony is very good about posting manuals for older products).

Actually, it looks like only TRV65 has stereo and S-Video out. TRV98 and TRV67 are mono and composite. I put my eyes on these 2 because they don't come from the dealer:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/150738503110...84.m1438.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/110810443091...84.m1438.l2649

This seems to come from a dealer and you've already described the potential problems.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sony-CCD-TRV...item4ab2efd2de

So basically you're saying you can turn off DNR and TBC if needed? Can you turn DNR off while leaving TBC on? Thanks.

--Leonid

The TBC and DNR can be switched on/off independently. Also check out the CCD-TRV66, it has stereo audio out. Digital 8 models with analog tape playback also feature stereo audio out, but the prices are usually much higher.

There are a few of TRV66 on ebay. Is there a difference between TRV65 and TRV66?

The 66 is a model year newer and comes with a built in video light.

Is the built in video light for shooting in the dark? Kind of like flash light for cameras?

By the way, this is what it says on the CCD-TRV65 menu:
When video tape recorded by this "XR" camcorder is played back by a conventional 8/Hi8 camcorder or when video tape recorded by a conventional 8/Hi8 camcorder is played back by this "XR" camcorder, the playback picture quality is in the normal quality of the 8/Hi8 camcorder.

Since all the Hi8 tapes I'm going to be digitizing were recorded by conventional non-XR Sony CCD-TR93, the only benefit I will potentially get by playing back on CCD-TRV65 is S-Video out, correct?

That is correct. You also get an optional TBC and DNR circuit if your videos require it.

I may use TBC. As for DNR - to me it's a big no no because I prefer to use noise reduction in AVISynth.

By the way, this is a bit off this particular topic. But I still would like to point out as I did in another post that TBC is a middle man. It digitizes the video and then converts it back to analog. But if video goes through extra analog->digital->analog, doesn't it get degraded?

--Leonid

You are right of course, but the tradeoff to use a TBC is worth it. I believe there are devices that can skip this step, for example dvd recorders use a tbc on input and store directly to a digital file. There's probably other ways to do it, for example to use a camcorder as the capture, and record through compressed DV. Another way would be to use an AV receiver, though in that case you are probably looking at recording HDMI as output (which is complicated).

I was looking for the ones that can do this and 3d comb filter and store it uncompressed or losslessly compressed. Couldn't find ones. Hoped Canopus had something like that but they even discontinued the DV compressed ADVC-300. Matrox doesn't have 3d comb filter and I am not even sure they have built in TBC.

Can you tell me more about it?

Yes, that's easy! (my new catchphrase :)

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...al-output.html
Do a search for "using received as tbc" and you'll find more references.

I can't tell you if it has 3d comb as well, but there's a way to do that in software, live if need be. I answered the general technique recently. http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...ctorscope.html
Instead of using the setup for viewing a vectorscope, you would paste a script to do decomb.
There's quite a few of them, and I have used some that do work.

3D Comb Filters are only used on composite video input to separate the chroma and luma portions of the video. If using S-Video for capture, you don't need one at all. The TBC found in Sony camcorders is a very good unit, there isn't any noticeable signal degradation and it does a great job of stabilizing the video.

For the Hi8 tapes I will not need 3d comb filter if I end up snatching TRV65/66. I will however need a good 3d comb filter because I plan on converting some of my LaserDiscs where video is stored as composite. But I will post about it later in a separate thread.

we should have a list of the good HI-8 cameras, like LordSmurfs' VHS list
these Sonys are S-video with stereo out:
CCD-TRV62
CCD-TRV65
CCD-TRV66
CCD-TRV70
CCD-TRV72
CCD-TRV82
CCD-TRV85
CCD-TRV87
CCD-TRV99
CCD-TRV101
CCD-TRV615

im sure i missed some -if you know of more ad them

CCD-TR940 and CCD-TR917 do stereo audio too. All Digital-8 camcorders with analog playback (I'll compile a list of the ones to avoid that lack this feature) along with the GV-D200 and GV-D800 Video Walkmans can also play back stereo Hi-8 tapes too.

do the 940 , 917 and the walkmans have S-video outs as well?

The following Digital 8 camcorder models can NOT play back analog Video-8/Hi-8 recordings. They only play and record Digital-8 tapes. They also lack firewire analog pass-through capabilities.

DCR-TRV130 (2001)
DCR-TRV140 (2002)
DCR-TRV250 (2003)
DCR-TRV260/265 (2004)
DCR-TRV280 (2005-06)

Yes, they have full I/O. The Digital-8 Video Walkmans and analog capable D8 Handycams also have Firewire connectivity.

i also believe these are S-video/stereo:
ccd-trv75
ccd-trv93
ccd-trv715
ccd-trv815

does anyone know offhand if a CCD-TRV101 has TBC & DNR?

Yes, all the above models are Hi-8 XR stereo from the 1998 model year.

The CCD-TRV101 (1996, stereo, non-XR) has the TBC/DNR function, it also one of the few HandyCams that recorded a datecode to the tape similar to how DV does it. You can recall the date and time of the recording with the touch of a button!

My focus would be on the TBC. As long as the camera has a TBC, and is in good shape, I'd be happy.
Composite will suffice; s-video is better, but it's not as big a deal with 8mm formats.
Stereo audio is a non-issue, because it's not like you weren't recording from a single location anyway.

That's my vote. :)

My camera has arrived:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/110810443091...84.m1436.l2649

I think it works ok as far as playback is concerned. However, there's one little thing. When I go to menu and adjust the settings, there's a wheel to move the selection up and down. If I roll the wheel up, the selection is supposed to move up, and if I roll the wheel down, the selection is supposed to move down. It's not always the case. Sometimes the selection jumps randomly. Other than that I didn't find any problems so far. I can return it, but I think I want to keep it. Yet I'd like to ask whether the experts here on this forum think that this is a minor issue or not.

Oh, and by the way, I tried test capture with TBC on and off and found that the colors of the same footage slightly differ from each other. I found that with TBC off they are more natural.

Wow you are a last seconds bidders...me too:D

The wheel on both my Sony camcorders do that, even when they were new.

If the color is slightly off, it can be fixed with a proc-amp or software. Fixing a slight hue shift is easier then jumpy/jittery video. I don't notice a perceptible color shift on my Hi-8 or D8 HandyCams, so it may vary by unit.

If ya'll build it, I'll publish it. :thumb:

I have a detailed list already. I'll get it up here when I get a chance.

i certainly pays to know what ones to look for.
while everybody on ebay was fighting over the more widely known models and IMO paying way too much,
i stole a CCD-TRV101 - mint with a Sony case, brand new battery, 2 new sealed Hi-8 tapes and even a Sony 8mm tape rewinder - $53 shipped

i used it to capture some tapes i had previously done with a Minolta Hi-8 camera.
what a difference!!! - the Sony looks 100 times better

I'd like to post 2 images. They were done from the same Hi8 cassette.

First work flow was Sony CCD-TR93 -> Compro VideoMate via Composite -> Huffyuv/704x480. Compro was equipped by WDM drivers from Compro.

Second work flow was Sony CCD TRV65 -> LifeView FlyVideo via S-Video -> Huffyuv/704x480. I didn't use drivers from LifefeView. I used the reference drivers from Philips directly.

It is obvious that the 2nd image is much clearer, has more details and has much less White Peak spread out. What contributes to the difference is obviously difference between the quality of playback on these camcorders, Composite vs S-Video and WDM capture drivers from Compro vs capture drivers from Philips.

Both capture cards are based on Phlips SAA7135 chip.

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