I can go as far back as a Pentium III. Assuming it powers up. Basement is in shambles right now as I try to make heads or talks of of all my stuff and organize. My main systems are newer, water cooled, heavily overclocked. I do have some dual-core older rev computers collecting dust that I plan to use for this setup. Only computer I have right now I "use" actively is a Dell Latitude laptop with Win8 and a MacBook Pro as all my desktops are in the basement running server stuff or just being video conversion computers so no point in a physical monitor on them.

Since I know it will be frowned upon using Win8 on a laptop even though it has 500GB of free hard drive space for content, will be setting up one of my old dual-core CPU based mini-tower computers and installing XP or Win7 on them depending on which is better. I will be installing the system fresh so can go either way since it will be revived just for this purpose.

Thanks.

-- merged --

NOTE: Since technically that ATI device doesn't support Win7 I'm setting up Windows XP 32-bit right now. From what I read guessing that's not a mistake. Will assume being 32-bit I won't need the additional RAM this system has on it since XP won't access more than 3.5GB or so.

JR

You'd be surprised how many video people insist on using XP, especially if they have a heavy software investment that won't work with later Windows. I capture with an old AGP machine -- it wouldn't be any faster on a new one. I have a newer XP build for most processing. It will handle heavy HD work, but then I have a Win7 build that does a quicker job with HD.

I have spare mobo's for the XP machines. I expect to be using XP merrily for a very long time to come.

XP box is ready to go now. Virtualdub, HuffyUV and Lagarith installed. So while I wait for the individual to ship me my 600 USB, couple things came to mind.

First, with the above, isn't YV12 4:2:0 AND YUY2 4:2:2? If so why would you want to use 4:2:0? Are you loosing anything noticable in that conversion?

Second, I read in one place that for the audio, unless you have some kind of hardware cleanup tool, you should feed the audio directly from the VCR to the ATI card, and only feed the video signal thru all the other devices being used. Figured there would be a discrepency in the audio and video for sure as they are following different paths of resistance to get to the ATI card so have been running audio cables right along with the video in and out of each device.

OK lied, third question. I can get my hands on a VidiCraft VIdimate VDM300S fairly cheap. Any value in this? Overkill?

Thanks.

JR

YUY2 is most similar to the way VHS luma/chroma information is stored, which is YPbPr (4:2:2). YUY2 avoids chroma loss and other interpolation issues involved with capture to other colorspaces such as YV12. Filters and other means of conversion from YUY2 to other matrixes (RGB being used most often for serious color correction) are available that allow one to make those conversions carefully and more precisely in post-capture processing, when and if those conversions are necessary.

For myself and everyone I know, I connect audio from the VCR to the capture card. No problems in 14 years.

Not just overkill, but likely problems with component aging. There are newer components around from SignVideo, which took over where Vidicraft left off. Color correction during VHS capture is an exercise in futility -- unless you have a piece of tape that is in such godawful shape that certain basic corrections must be made, but anything that bad will need plenty of post-capture work anyway. During capture the only filtering applied is usually brightness and contrast adjustment to maintain an RGB 16-235 luma and chroma range and avoid blown-out highlights and crushed darks. VHS varies in those areas from scene to scene and even within scenes, so usually people adjust for a worst-case scenario during the play of a tape. If you lose darks and brights during capture, there's no way to retrieve those details. VirtualDub capture can hook into adjustment filters in capture cards and graphics cards during the capture, so there's no need for an additional outboard device. You don't want to use denoisers during capture (they're too primitive, too destructive, and too slow), and you don't want to sharpen tape during play (what you would sharpen is noise, making it difficult if not impossible to remove later).

I have a proc amp (The SignVideo PA-100) that's a favorite although no longer made. I use it only for brightness/contast to control blacks and white levels. It's main benefit is the IRE luma meter that comes with the unit (the meters alone is worth the price). I don't use it all the time -- each added component affects images to some degree. There are services around that refurbish aging proc amps such as the SignVideo.

Thanks for the info as usual. The reason I was thinking of a proc amp or something to color correct on the fly is my tapes seem to have certain segments on a single tape that are REALLY red and other parts that are fine (one tape could have several different recording sessions). No clue why the color extremes as don't remember that coloring years ago. I'm guessing with hardware color correcting you would have to keep adjusting the settings/knobs for each part of the video (~10 minute recording sessions) as you go thru the video and almost have to write down where each knob needs to be to color correct and switch it as the video plays and each segment ends. If I understand it right. For me any given tape could have a section where skin tones look great, others yellow, others heavy reds. Not sure if any of this will go away with the ES15 and the ATI card.

Other problem I had, when testing before I got the ES15, I opened the videos in Premiere CC and cleaned up the redness as much as I can with the built in color correctors. Now I know this can be monitor related but here's the weird part. I completed some cleanup and was fairly happy so rendered it. Looked good. I then took the rendered file and put it on a MacBook Pro, and the colors looked like I never even corrected them at all. Heavy reds in the parts that were originally red, yellow where it was originally yellow, as if the filters were rendered as a "layer" in the MP4 and it was being ignored. Know this isn't the case but how it conveyed itself.

JR

True, you can get tapes and tape segments with severe problems that require you to apply a tint filter. However, "Tint" is usually the only capture-time color filter available. You don't adjust parameters during capture -- you play the tape and make adjustments, check 'em out, then start capture. When the tape's characteristics change again, stop the capture, make adjustments, start a new capture. That's why it doesn't make sense to try to correct everything during a single capture. Your reactions are too slow to mask that filter changeover during tape playback, and there's no way to hide it using software. It's done with editing that uses different captures, each of which are properly adjusted.

It's not possible to cover all kinds of color corrections. What you describe could be a color layer problem that could be corrected post-capture in YUV. Another discovery you'll make with lossless video is that many corrections can only be made in the original captured YUV colorspace -- some color problems can't be repaired after conversion to RGB (which is what happens with color correction in most budget NLE's like Premiere Elements). I think you'll also find that the typical budget NLE is no competition for the kind of color correction and repair you can do with Avisynth, VirtualDub, and other color tools.

You should be working with calibrated monitors. There are many ways to adjust a monitors and tv's. The commonly acceptable way is with a calibration software kit that includes a hardware colorimeter. No self-respecting photog, printmaster, videographer or video restoration hobbyist will work without a properly adjustment monitor. What you describe with that particular sample, however, likely has no bearing on calibration.

Thanks. So are we still on no hardware color correction gear and do it in software?

Big problem I see under what you described sanlyn, is don't you do noise removal first before you "damage" the noise profile on the footage? Say NeatVideo or something like that? In that case you are altering the footage to RGB as it's my understanding noise removal software works in the RGB space. At least NeatVideo and Denoiser II does. Very familiar with Avisynth usage and have taken advantage of it's power in the past, but never thought the noise removal tools were as usable as the previously mentioned ones. Especially since those tools visually allow you to make adjustments then apply where Avisynth you are editing scripts, loading the avs file into WMP or something and seeing the changes, then altering, then looking, maybe taking a picture so you can see if it's different than the last time. What I liked about the NLE tools is you can apply filter to particular parts of the footage rather than breaking the footage into separate files and dealing with them individually then splicing them back together. I can make color adjustments to the first 10 minutes, then the next 10 apply a different color adjustment, etc but will do what needs to.

By the way, other than the plugins, wonder if AVID works natively in YUY2 without conversion. I know nothing about it, but my team at work has a copy so I have access if that's any better.

Thanks.

JR

Some noise can repaired only in YUV, some color correction can be effective before moving to RGB. In addition, many NLE's don't convert YUV to RGB propely, while Avisynth has several ways of doing it, including 16-bit dithering filters instead of the usual artifact-generating 8-bits that most of us are accustomed to, depending on the video and the problem. At the final step, when many encoders see RGB input they can make a mess of returning to YUV. Aggressive filters like NeatVideo or Avisynth's TemporalDegrain can clean a video to the point where serious banding and macroblock artifacts occur during final encode because so much data has been removed in the process. I see these effects all the time with video processed by enthuisastic users who go bonkers throwing inappropriate filters at noisy captures.

I use NeatVideo often; it's almost always a last step procedure, usually occurs separate from RGB color, and is never run with other denoisers in the circuit. I almost always use VirtualDub with progressive video when possible, re-interlacing or re-applying telecine afterward with Avisynth. NeatVideo is pretty good but there are some common problems it won't correct: oversharpening artifacts, chroma shift, chroma bleed, rainbows, spots, comets, dropouts, halos, aliasing, DCT ringing, dot crawl, and other annoying poohpooh that Avisynth is better at cleaning in the original YUV capture colorspace.

Always work first in the original YUV colorspace until you've exhausted the means of doing so before moving to another matrix, if necessary. Colorspace conversions and even simple moves like cropping will differ depending on frame structure and other factors. Most NLE's are just not very precise or careful about that sort of thing. Often you might not need further filtering after working in the original colorspace.

Running avs scripts in WMP is probably one of the least convenient ways of doing it IMO. Nothing is as straightforward as VirtualDub for that purpose, especially since you can load some VDub filters into the output to test what you might want to do later and can run them while you view your script. Vdub's input and output panels can be adjusted for size and aspect ratio. If you want to test color correction at the same time you can load the VDub histograms like ColorTools to check out the way corrections will look in RGB, which is the way video is actually displayed (Note that ColorTools with its histograms and vectorscopes won't work with Windows 7 or later, nor will a few other VDub classic filters). Besides, VirtualDub's windows match more closely with your graphic card's setup and adjustments than WMP does, which has its own "unique" way of playing with color and levels.

Stepping back to the hardware color corrector. Based on your input sanlyn gonna drop it. Can get my hands on a SignVideo PA-1 which I think is the same as the 100 just to have it around for testing, but for $190 don't think its worth that. Not sure since guess it's still a current unit.

Anyway, spending a lot of time right now reviewing lots of color correction tools like Davinci Resolve, Color Finesse, different NLEs to see how those tools work. Can be very powerful.

Plus trying to find a monitor calibration device,like Spyder. Just ebay seems to only have new ones for sale for a lot. Would think these would be all over used. Apparently people continuously recalibrate their equipment that there really aren't any used ones out there. Could buy new but after I'm done with these tapes, all my normal digital work is HD and am not doing any color correction work so having a perfectly calibrated monitor isn't a big deal for me post VHS restoration work.

JR

I paid retail for my SignVideo, when it cost about $150 more than it lists today on their website. I haven't used it for color correction for years, I just monitor and contol IRE levels. That IRE level meter is a godsend, worth the price of the unit. If the used price seems a little high, I know where you can get some good video measurement gear with IRE meters for a little over $1000 used. But you can always use a histogram during capture. VirtualDub has one. I use their histogram most of the time anyway.

Good idea in general. I could give you a ton of web links that spell out what pros, advanced hobbyists, and people with good color sensitivity say about the Spyder line. But rather than waste your time with all that web searching, the short version of the tale is that Spyder should be avoided. The EyeOne and XRite line used by XRite and Pantone and others are the affordable alternatives.

That's exactly what they do, and so should you.

Your monitor won't stay in adjustment for more than a few weeks. Components mature and age, backlights change hue, so color and luminance will drift. The hardware used to re-calibrate at intervals can also be used with other specialized software to calibrate that TV you're viewing with its godawful "mode"settings, which works against calibrating your monitor to test your videos for TV viewing.

After a couple of years of use, the sensors in most colorimeters drift away from their own factory calibration. No one would want to buy them, so no one tries to sell them to users who know what they're doing. If you want a colorimeter or photometer that lasts longer than typical consumer models, get up about a grand or more (usually more) and buy a pro model, which would be recalibrated every year or so. Some of the better consumer models (not the cheapos) can be refurbished by outfits that specialize in that area -- for a price, of course. Amateurs and most paid amateurs don't use those services. Professionals use them all the time.

So you're saying that after you finish this restoration, you're done forever with using your PC and your TV? Well....hope you have luck with ColorFinesse and all that, and that you get the job done to your satisfaction. From what you imply, it appears that something like ColorFinesse might be more than you'd like to tackle, seeing as how you don't seem to mind what the typical out-of-adjustment TV does to all that hard work from Hollywood pros and Disney artists.

The link below and the attached ZIP is a copy of the online help that comes with V.2 of the ColorFinesse plugin for After Effects Pro CS3 and 4 (the standalone retail version is slightly more complicated). http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1414639621 in PDF format. If it appears too simple for your purpose, there's always DaVinci.
:wink2:

Thanks for the info sanlyn. Here is how I look at things.

I have some calibration DVD/BD's that I used to calibrate my plasma display. Looked perfect. We watched it for a while and the female of the family kept complaining about it. I got annoyed and started scrolling thru the presets. Hit Vivid and she was like "THAT'S PERFECT!!!". I'm like your kidding right? Look at all the little dots all over the screen when you look at it close. She is like "WHO EVER LOOKS AT IT THAT CLOSE?!?!?!?!". I gave up and left it on Vivid. So from that perspective calibration is worthless.

For the computer, yeah, if I could get my PC and Mac screens to look similar that would be nice. Am I going to be swapping footage between the two after I'm done with my VHS content? No, I barely use my Mac normally. Plus I spend 75% of my day on a work laptop and 5% on my personal computers and half the time I'm remoting (don't even talk color in this case) into them. Based on my habits, don't think I'm a big candidate for long term monitor calibration so was hoping for a short term low cost calibration. Consider my feelings a product of my environment. Family sees no value in what I am doing here, so any purchases I make I have to listen to lots of )($%*)$*(%)# and pick my battles.

Don't even get me started on the comments I'm getting about the Desktop PC, with the S-VHS on top of it (that they feel I should have thrown out years ago), and the ES15 DVD Recorder, and the TBC-1000 all stacked up on top of each other. One more WTF are you doing and I'm going to scream. And if I don't get to the HD 600 USB before anyone else does in the mail will hear about that to. :)

I am watching training videos on Color Finesse 3 and am playing with Davinci but Davinci doesn't seem to work in Windows 8 or on my Mac which is running Yosemite. Keeps crashing. Guess my systems are to "current" even for newer software.

JR

Right. Typical response, but it's not allowed here. Fortunately my wife and most friends have a pretty keen eye and get a headache from those TV presets.

I lived with one of those calibration discs until I couldn't stand it. You don't have to be sitting up close to see the effects. My two TV's and an older one are calibrated with an EyeOne colorimeter, free HCFR software, and a laptop to D6500 broadcast standards. The wife says it's like sitting in the movies. For what it's worth, an older thread on TV calibration and the reasons and methods is here: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457. There's also a newer version that says the same thing but with different hardware. Only thing I don't like about CurtPalme's website is that their "adjusted" graphics look horrible. You'll also find some pretty heady stuff in the Calibration forum at AVSForum.

I used to get the same response from some other relatives, until I restored their daughter's godawful wedding VHS and their son's bar mitzvah tape. I don't get that response any more, at least not from them. Thanks to mass media training, most people in this country are visually illiterate. I see a different attitude toward the visual arts when I visit Europe and the UK.

Some time back my wife felt the same way. Until she saw the results. Nowadays when we visit others and see their godawful video setups she winks at me and gives me a nudge in the ribs. But she's diplomatic enough to keep her mouth buttoned otherwise.
:)

I think you'll find that a great many graphics hobbyists still use XP. Microsoft and Mac are doing all they can to prohibit home video processing. A lot of great software, much of it free, won't work on anything past XP.

I find Color Finesse more workable anyway. You'll find similar tools in VirtualDub, such as curves, histograms, vectorscopes (which won't work in Win7 or 8), and the multi-channel ColorMill. Again, some color problems have to be fixed in YUV with Avisynth -- especially some kinds of chroma junk you get with VHS.

P.S.; And, also for what it's worth....
Here's an old post that documents the results of a PC monitor calibration using XRite software. The graphs were made with the free HCFR software, taking pics of test patches off the PC screen with the colorimeter. You can't use HCFR to calibrate a PC monitor (you use it for a TV), but HCFR can take readings and monitor what the calibration software does. The first image in the post is a graph of the results of trying to perfect an RGB resposne curve using manual test patches and working only with the available monitor image controls. The XRite software took it from there. http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...=1#post2083260

Obviously, most people won't go thru this 15-minute calibration exercise. That's often a reason for the strange look of much of their results.. But I have to say, watching videos on properly calibrated displays is an experience in itself. All that's missing is the popcorn, but popcorn is easy enough to get.

Guessing x-rite i1Display Pro would be their current product? Find their website less than intuitive. I can't tell if this product can calibrate Plasma displays as well as monitor or what. Any idea? Glad to drop them a note or call them to verify.

Thanks.

JR

Last time I saw Xrite's or Spyder's websites, neither looked especially helpful. The two contenders today are the Xrite i1Display Pro (sometimes sold as the X-Rite EODIS3 at $25 more than the previous v2), and the Spyder4 Pro (sold as the Spyder4Elite, and about $40 more than the v3). The kits are designed for PC calibration, usually takes about 15 minutes after you go thru their routine the first time. They both have an auto mode -- you plug the stuff in, click the auto setup button, and it'll be completed by the time you come back with your new cup of coffee. If you really want a better calibration, use the advanced mode where you first fiddle with whatever image controls you have on you monitor, to get into the neighborhood so to speak, then let the calibration kit finish the job. As agent Mulder would say, the advanced mode gets you closer to The Truth.

The EyeOne and the Spyder can calibrate a TV using the methods outlined at the CurtPalme websites and in several AVS forum threads -- but you need the free HCFR software, which can read and graphically display readouts from the colorimeter while you make TV adjustments. The PC calibration software won't work on TV's. You also need a set of test patches, some of which are free DVD ISO's from AVS, or there's always the pro-recommended $25 ISO image from GetGray at http://www.calibrate.tv/. The first time with a TV can take an hour or more. It's a real eye-opener when HCFR's display shows you just how unstable and finicky your perfect-digital TV's output really is. But, then, it saves you the average $750 to $1250 cost of having an ISF expert come to your house and do it for you while you watch him use his EyeOne Pro that looks just like yours! (Of course, his version cost him $1500). Don't even think about investing in CurtPalme's super-pro software -- it ain't worth it, and it won't calibrate a PC monitor. HCFR is free, easier to use, and displays prettier pictures.

As for which colorimeter is "best", well....the folks at CurtPalme and AVS and other display forums usually point to the XRite as being not only closer to spec but using better calibration methods. If you really must fit a slightly smaller budget, the Spyder4 Elite might not be perfect but it's 5000% better than calibration discs or manual test patches, either of which can easily lead you far5 astray or have you calling a therapist in short order. Here's a test site that pretty much echoes everyone's sentiments about the ongoing battle between EyeOne and Spyder that's been on for several years: http://nativedigital.co.uk/site/2013...-spyder4elite/

Of course I didn't just get a sudden idea about all this gear and software one morning, and then have it all together by the same afternoon. Took a while to get me there. Couple of frustrating years, actually. I used those TV calibration discs -- you'd be amazed how far off they are, even if they do make some improvement in contrast levels but do absolutely nothing for the RGB curve. I had lovely movie stars with nice highlights and sharper shadows, but really couldn't take the green shadows in their hair (there's only so much you can do with a Tint control). The TV discs don't work for PC'S. PC monitors have a different response gamma curve and use a different color matrix. For a couple of years I used manual test patterns from http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/ and wondered why my vids look OK on my PC but were too bright on my DVE disc calibrated TV. Came to find out that you usually match your calibrated PC gamma curve to your calibrated TV gamma curve by setting your TV gamma for the usual 2.2 and your PC gamma for the graphics-preferred 1.8. Next, you adjust RGB response on a PC with a PC color matrix, and on a TV with a different matrix for TVs. Then there was the time and money I spent on a Spyder that gave incorrect red and saturation readings, and almost had me pitching my plasma out the window. Thus, after years of fooling around and finally getting away from the mass-consumer video sites, it all began to make sense.

Anyway, all that stuff is for later. First you gotta get something captured.

Thanks for all the detailed info. Giving me something to read today while in the car (passenger seat). I am expecting the ATI HD 600 today so stay tuned on that front.

JR

Sorry to get so long-winded. By the time 1:45 AM comes around, things start to go haywire.

Good luck.

No. Please write away. I love all the information you take the time to provide. Card arrived in the mail so will be setting it up tonight. I'll send my setup in Virtualdub for capturing when I power things up to verify I'm doing it all right based on all the prior convos.

-- merged --

OK, Dongle installed. XP didn't recognize it of course. Installed the latest XP driver from AMD. That installed the ATI Catalyst Install Manager and the TV Wonder 600 USB driver. Assume that will also install the WDM capture drivers you mentioned? Note there is no reference to ATI or Catalyst or anything in the start menu. Not sure if this is normal.

Thanks.

-- merged --

Here is what I got so far. Let me know what to adjust if anything:

1. Launch Virtualdub
2. File > Capture AVI
3. Video > Preview
4. Video > Video Source > Video SVideo
5. Video > Capture Filter > Video Decoder Tab - Is the VCR Input relevant?
6. Video -> Compression -> Huffyuv v2.1.1 > Configure -> Both Pulldowns Best
7. Video -> Set Custom Format -> 720 x 480 x YUY2 (YUY 4:2:2 interleaved) - Is 720x480 right with new capture card (NTSC)?
8. Capture -> Disk I/O -> Chunk Size 12M & Chunk in Buffer 24 and Uncheck "Disable Windows write buffer"
9. Capture -> Check "Autoincrement filename after capture"
10. Audio -> Check Enable Audio Capture
11. Audio -> Uncheck Enable Audio Playback

Let me know if I missed anything and any help on the two questions above would be appreciated.

JR

You should see ATI references in your start menu like this: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/imag.../Ej8LtQi-1.png Since you have the 600USB, which is what I have, it should have come with an installation disc. That disc will have everything you need to make it work.

5) I never mess with this.
6) Your choice. I use utVideo.
7) If you read more on this site, default VHS size isn't anywhere close to 720x480. http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/vid...rd-capture.htm However, I typically capture in 720x480 just because I'm used to that resolution from DVD, and don't feel like going smaller.
8) I don't mess with this.
9) I don't mess with this.

Thanks for the reply Nightshiver. I just uninstalled the ATI drivers I installed and removed them from the ATI device so is now showing a yellow exclamation point on the device. Took out the original ATI install disk and will install that first. Usually don't bother as the original disk is so out of date. I have three options:

1. TV Wonder 600 USB2 Drivers
2. ATI AVIVO
3. ATI Catalyst Media Center

Should I install all of these for doing video capture thru SVideo? Not sure what AVIVO is and remember sanlyn said not to install something as it could mess with YUY2 colors thru registry updates. Will have ot look back at what it was.

Thanks.

JR

You should be good with just the TV Wonder usb drivers. If you are using VirutalDub to record the stream, then you don't need the Catalyst Media Center. You shouldn't need the AVIVO drivers either, but in case something doesn't work, install those AFTER you have installed the USB drivers and found that something is wrong. But again, you shouldn't need them for capturing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATI_Avivo

The ATI website does have updated drivers for the USB that you can download if you want. http://www.diamondmm.com/tvw600usb-a...er-hd-600.html

It's the 3rd one down, VER 23, 2009-10-21. Don't download the last one since you don't have/aren't using Windows 7.