Using TBC and video still tearing?

[jriker1]

I have a Mitsubishi HS-U747 S-VHS player and trying to convert some old VHS tapes I have had lying around into digital files on my computer. The S-Video out on the Mitsubishi is going to the input of a datavideo TBC-1000 and then svideo out to a Canopus ADVC-110 and then into the firewire on my computer. If I play the video without the TBC screen "looks" fine. However the video does not seem to update all the time on my screen. Like it's locking up even though the VCR shows the tape keeps being read thru. If I put the TBC in line it plays fine then, but has visual tearing on the top left and right side and then straight across the top of the screen. Any fixes for this or thoughts or is the tapes just toasty?

Thanks.

JR

[msgohan]

What's your capture software, and is it reporting dropped frames without the TBC?

[sanlyn]

A frame level tbc won't repair frame tearing. It's caused by line sync errors. You need a line tbc.

[jriker1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

What's your capture software, and is it reporting dropped frames without the TBC?

msgohan, I'll get back to you shortly. Just cleaned the heads of the S-VHS and want to make sure they are dry. Sure the alcohol dries quick but better safe than sorry.

For reference using MS Movie Maker 2012 on Windows 8 to pull content into DV.

-- merged --

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

A frame level tbc won't repair frame tearing. It's caused by line sync errors. You need a line tbc.

Thanks for the reply sanlyn. And crap. Assume my DVD recorder could resolve this but gave it to my dad who's in a home to use to watch movies. Wouldn't dare take it away from him. Will assume my Sony Camcorder wouldn't work (http://store.sony.com/interchangeabl...pfm%3Dcategory). Think it only has outputs. Hopefully I can find an alternative without buying something or just trim off the top of the videos to get ride of it but not optimal.

JR

[sanlyn]

Tearing or not, VHS still has line sync errors. Always. You might still need a frame tbc for other issues, but it's the wrong tool to correct in-frame line timing.

[volksjager]

you need a VCR with a built in TBC for that - like an AG-1980
some Panny DVD recorders might help - like the DMR-ES10

[dpalomaki]

Quote:

... gave it to my dad who's in a home to use to watch movies.

Does your dad use it to record too? If not, maybe replace it with a low cost DVD player.

[jriker1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

Does your dad use it to record too? If not, maybe replace it with a low cost DVD player.

Yep. He uses it like a digital VCR. Has built in hard drive and coax antenna input. Records shows based on setting time of day instead of having a digital guide (no internet there). Plus watches shows on DVD that we bought him. It's the center of his life.

I'm going to try a few things with my cables and see if switching from S-Video to RCA cables does anything or any other changes help or not. I also have a booster/splitter AV61 (http://www.xantech.com/audio/avdistr...ribution/AV61/). Not sure if putting that after the VCR will help. Assuming the problem won't be fixed unless it's fixed within the VCR?

May try one of the suggested VCR's if I can justify buying one to backup 15 VHS taps and then never use it again. Ugh...

One question. Is this issue something to do with the age of the tapes? Trying to understand why this happens and obviously from reading not the only one who has had this issue over the years. Obviously at some point just playing these tapes to a TV wasn't an issue.

Thanks.

JR

[volksjager]

don't use composite (RCA) -S-video is way better
also that canopus device is going to butcher you colors - an ATI card would be better
with only 15 tapes it would probably be cheaper/better sending them out for conversion

[jriker1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by volksjager

don't use composite (RCA) -S-video is way better
also that canopus device is going to butcher you colors - an ATI card would be better
with only 15 tapes it would probably be cheaper/better sending them out for conversion

Tell me about the color. Only positive outcome of it is that I have done extensive work self teaching on color correction with Adobe Premiere Pro. Lot of fun!!

I was thinking of using the composite connectors to see if it made any difference with the tearing but guessing it won't make a difference.

JR

[dpalomaki]

Your dad is sharper, technology wise, than most!

Is the tearing in the overscan area by any chance?
Is this an original tape, or a copy?

As noted above, for 15 tapes it may be more economical (and faster to the end result) to send them out. Unless of course this is a hobby and you are in part doing it for the fun of the process.

The AV61 looks to be a distribution amp with no signal processing or sync shaping, so it is unlikely it would provide any benefit. Further it appears to be composite only so you would lose the benefit of s-video.

[jriker1]

To me it's more a hobby than anything else so would probably opt not to go to a pro to convert the content. Limits my learning. Content is not super important but I tend to be a perfectionist so like to do the best job I can. Really enjoy all things digital especially around Photoshop editing, Sony Vegas, and Premiere. Editing, cleaning, converting, streaming. Spend at least 3 hours a day playing with different kinds of content.

I did attach two images from my export. One is the original and the other is VLC deinterlacing the image in case the interlacing in the picture makes things hard to see.

Note this is an image from a VHS tape in my Mitsubishi S-VHS thru the TBC-1000 and into the ADVC-110 and out thru the firewire into my computer. Then recorded by MS Movie Maker 2012 as DV content.

JR

[sanlyn]

Hm. Interesting comments, JR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jriker1

To me it's more a hobby than anything else so would probably opt not to go to a pro to convert the content. Limits my learning.

In what way? It would seem to be the opposite, one would think. Whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jriker1

I tend to be a perfectionist so like to do the best job I can.

Putting limits on your learning won't get you there. The equipment and methods you say you use don't compute with the perfectionist bit. The ADVC 100 is far from perfection. So is capping analog tape to DV. Your images show ragged borders that ripple during play, vertical edges are ragged or fuzzy (both of which a line tbc would help fix), and one sees the usual DV compression artifacts from analog capture. The frames' side borders, not counting the tearing and top-end distortion, are bent to the right near the top.

Unless your object is posting to the internet, most DVDs are interlaced. So are most commercial 1920x1080 HD and 720x480 SD BluRay/AVCHD except for a couple of frame formats and film-based originals. Your VLC player and most other media players deinterlace or de-telecined on the fly, the same way your set top players and TV do. If you see interlace combing in VLC player, maybe you limited your learning to not setting up VLC, which doesn't deinterlace by default. Something like MPC-BE would make a better player.

The top border tearing can be fixed with a decent line tbc. No way around it. Below are links to two demos of pass-thru line tbc work I made about 8 years ago. The pass-thru I used has since been replaced with a better one, and the VCR I used (Panasonic PV-8661) is also replaced. But at the time they worked pretty well with less damaged tapes. The VHS tape in question was abused with over-enthusiastic stop/start/replay playback, and dirty, noisy, and physically damaged. I made a better version a couple of years later, but these demos are from the half-finished originals that still needed more cleanup. The demos aren't the final version.

The links below are to a paid, secured site. No popups. No ads. Decent download speed.

A_Sample2_bad.mpg (24MB) was capped without a tbc. The frame is reduced slightly so the disturbances wouldn't be partially masked by overscan on my nephew's CRT.
https://www.mediafire.com/?8jgwn0cvzs7s059

B_Sample2_fix.mpg (22 MB) used a pass-thru TBC. The pass-thru was a Toshiba RD2 DVD recorder. Still some imperfection at the very top, but I got stronger tbc's since then. The cheapo DR2 was better with cleaner tapes. The only denosiing was MCTemporalDenoise but it still needed more work, as you can see, including some composite dot crawl. My frame-level tbc wasn't used here.
https://www.mediafire.com/?5e4kj1350qxk68r

I have an AG-1980, but this tape is so old and awful I'm afraid I'd damage the heads with it. I made a cleaner and smoother version with a Pansonic PV-S4672 and Panny ES15 pass-thru later. Capped with an ATI AIW 9600XT to huffyuv losssles AVI. In the past I capped VHS a couple of times to DV. Learned my lesson fast. I'll never do it again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jriker1

I'm going to try a few things with my cables and see if switching from S-Video to RCA cables does anything

It'll give you an opportunity to learn how to repair dot crawl, chroma upsampling errors and mosquito noise, the latter a hallmark of VHS capped to DV with composite cables.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jriker1

One question. Is this issue something to do with the age of the tapes? Trying to understand why this happens and obviously from reading not the only one who has had this issue over the years. Obviously at some point just playing these tapes to a TV wasn't an issue.

Partly to bad tape. Mostly because digital encoders don't see your tapes the way your TV does. But even on TV, sync-error ripples will still be there.

ED: As for the above demo tape, the original was recorded at 6-hour EP speed on cheap tape.

And I made a boo-boo (no surprise). Your images show side borders that are slightly warped to the left toward the top, not to the right as I stated. Sorry. That's the result of line sync errors. A frame level tbc won't fix it.

[jriker1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by msgohan

What's your capture software, and is it reporting dropped frames without the TBC?

Sorry for the delay, I am doing a conversion right now without the TBC that had the tearing on the top. sanlyn has provided me some great input I'm reading thru now however without the TBC picture looks perfect or as much as VHS can. I am seeing jerking movements, or what would look like a temporary lock up, while recording in the preview window. Using WinDV right now instead of the MS app. Not showing any dropped frames but not sure what WinDV considers dropped frames. When it's done converting will be interested to see if during all those "pausing" segments if it's stuttering or whatever.

One interesting thing about WinDV. My hard drive is about 60% utilized while recording. With MS Movie Maker it's always at 99%.

-- merged --

Verified. Without the TBC the picture is OK but it jumps (skips) whenever there was a hang in the preview window. So looks like the TBC allows the video to play thru in it's entirety but causes all kinds of visual artifacts however without it I get a video that looks acceptable but jumps a lot.

JR

[dpalomaki]

What are the "jumps"?
Missing frames (e.g.,a blank frame)?
Skipped frames (as if one frame was cut out)?
Frames that look as if the scan started in the wrong place on the screen (to high or low)?
Loading the capture into your NLE and stepping through the problem point one frame at a time may help.
Is the capture audio OK?

Are the problem tapes recorder original (first generation), or copies?

[jriker1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpalomaki

What are the "jumps"?
Missing frames (e.g.,a blank frame)?
Skipped frames (as if one frame was cut out)?
Frames that look as if the scan started in the wrong place on the screen (to high or low)?
Loading the capture into your NLE and stepping through the problem point one frame at a time may help.
Is the capture audio OK?

Are the problem tapes recorder original (first generation), or copies?

I'll check on this and get back. Computer I record to has no working speakers so have to transfer it elsewhere to edit/listen.

Question on the line based TBC. A friend of mine has an LG DVD recorder. He is looking for the model. Would that work for a line based TBC? Do all DVD Recorder units work?

Thanks.

JR

[NJRoadfan]

Have you tried another VCR to see if it plays the tapes correctly? Usually a unit with a slightly different alignment will work with problem tapes.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jriker1

Question on the line based TBC. A friend of mine has an LG DVD recorder. He is looking for the model. Would that work for a line based TBC? Do all DVD Recorder units work?

Probably not. Most don't work as pass-thru, and a scant few of newer units have puny circuitry of little use. The best of the pass-thru units were made up until 2005. After that, forget it. Panasonic is the favorite with its ES10 and ES15. TBC pass-thru in the ES20 is too puny to fiddle with, it's tantamount to nothing. Coming in second, the Toshiba "RD" and "RD-XS" series circa 2002-2005. SONY, Pioneer, and pricey multi-format AIWA high-end HDD units were decent, but none of them work as pass-thru. Any and all DVD/VCR combo units are out of the game.

[jriker1]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

Probably not. Most don't work as pass-thru, and a scant few of newer units have puny circuitry of little use. The best of the pass-thru units were made up until 2005. After that, forget it. Panasonic is the favorite with its ES10 and ES15. TBC pass-thru in the ES20 is too puny to fiddle with, it's tantamount to nothing. Coming in second, the Toshiba "RD" and "RD-XS" series circa 2002-2005. SONY, Pioneer, and pricey multi-format AIWA high-end HDD units were decent, but none of them work as pass-thru. Any and all DVD/VCR combo units are out of the game.

He sent me a pic and it has a S-Video out but no input. Only composite input and don't want to be switching per other comments here.

JR

[sanlyn]

Hmm, no s-video. Not unusual for a budget DVDR.

TBC-equipped VCR's like the AG-1980 are pricey in good condition or rebuilt. AG's sold by a handful of reputable tech shops start at about $400. That's quite an outlay for 15 tapes. Those tbc prosumer decks do have one downside: you're tied to their dnr/tbc circuitry, which ain't often friendly with some tapes. Disabling the tbc/dnr defeats the purpose of using the player. An ES10 or ES15 goes for under $100 these days. They're starting to get hard to find, too. Owning one doesn't tie you down to any single VCR. Your Mitsubishi would work with it. Even with a composite-only player, the ES10/ES15 has a decent y/c comb filter and s-video converter to clean up dot crawl. In most cases they ignore Macrovisio0n when used as pass-thru.

A couple of months ago I posted examples of a composite-only, non-tbc player and bad VHS retail tape used with an ES15 pass-thru. The links posted earlier show playback problems without a line tbc. The samples posted below didn't have tearing, but they had the wiggly edges and warped border glitches seen in the earlier links. The caps below were made with the ES15 connected and no full-frame tbc -- as you can see, the ES15 as pass-thru ignored Macrovision on this tape. It also subdued composite dot crawl and a lot of the usual composite color bleed and noise. These are noise and damage repair samples. But they show how a non-tbc player can look with a pass-thru tbc.

The first two before/after samples are edits of shots with strong color flicker in bright areas. Anti-flicker filters work only on luma, so I had to play some tricks with Avisynth. The tape has motion noise in shadow areas, but the pass-thru stabilized noisy composite edges and made the noisy grunge easier to clean. The demo has edits of 2 shots.
A_flicker_samples_original.mpg
B_flicker_samples_after.mpg

Links "C" and "D" are examples of other damage control. There are 4 short scenes. Besides horrible color that varied from scene to scene, there are spots, gigantic blotches, projector punch holes, chroma bleed, dark halos, white stringy stuff on faces in one shot and whitish flareups, the usual tape noise, etc. "D" is the clean-up.
C_defect_samples_original.mpg
D_defect_samples_after.mpg

The capture card was an ATI 7500 AIW to huffyuv lossless AVI.