KVCD: Help with Noise Reduction?

[2COOL]

I had posted in the wrong forum earlier.

I've been trying to get Disney's Tarzan widescreen animation on a 80min CD-R for over a month. I keep getting lots of video noise and macro blocks through the mpeg. I'm still a newbie at this.

Well anyway, I'm using the KVCD Plus 320X240 template. The only areas I modified was framerate to 29.97fps and source apsect ratio to 16:9.

The Smartripped the DVD. I used DVD2AVI to get a forced film d2v and wav. I can at least get to this part. I stumped at the TMPGenc phase. I'm using TMPGenc Plus 2.58. I know I can get it closer to DVD quality. Can anyone tell me what I'm doing wrong? I'm just concentrating more on animations. My kids already went through a couple of cartoon DVDs and I'm broke having to buy another.

Oh and I'm trying to get a VCD right now

[kwag]

Hi 2COOL,

If you set "Force FILM" in DVD2AVI, you must encode at 23.976fps.
Try to use the KVCD_LBR, and increase the CQ_VBR to 30. That should give you an excelent picture and fit the whole thing on one CD-R.

-kwag

[2COOL]

Thanks for responding Kwag.

I did what you said. My .d2v was already a forced 24fps. I'm still getting noise artifacts. My source range in the movie was where Kala and the leopard? is fighting over baby Tarzan. Lots of noise during motion, leopard spots not clear, the rope net against the background too blocky...

I couldn't see a difference between using my first template and your modified one. The best video quality I had was using KVCDx3-MPEG-2-NTSCFilm template but I would end up with more than 1 disc.

Ideally I would like something like that a single cd-r as my under 4-year old kids don't know about changing to the next disc when the movie is done.

I'm up for more suggestions...

[m0rdant]

For cartoons, and especially for cartoons for kids, you can use the temporal smoother function of avisynth. If you use the FitCD program you will find it rem'ed in the script.

Try it. It will shrink the video size some allowing you to try a higher quality rating, and it will remove some of the noise. Also, try watching the movie on the TV rather than your monitor. Often noise you can see on the monitor isn't there on the TV.

[2COOL]

m0rdant,

I must be doing something wrong with fitCD and as a newbie the guide isn't user friendly. Anyway, I tried to load the avs into TMPGenc and it didn't like the second line containing the d2v. TMPGenc keeps giving me a red font error stating:

AVISource autodetect : couldn't open file
(C:\Movie\Tarzan.avs\line 2)

So I went and got a AVIsource and that worked. But how I still got a #TemporalSmoother(2,2) line. I'm going to feel stupid if I'm wrong but I gather TemporalSmoother comes under MPEG2DEC? Just in case I've downloaded three of those from reputable sites but that didn't make the "#" go away. Here's what I got from from my AVISource AVS:

LoadPlugin("C:\Downloads\Mpeg2dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
AviSource("C:\Movie\Test.avi")
BilinearResize(352,448,0,0,320,240)
#TemporalSmoother(2,2)
AddBorders(64,16,64,16)
#Trim(0,80).FadeOut(150)
#ConvertToRGB24 # For TMPGEnc or VFAPI
#ResampleAudio(44100) # CCE 2.5 'crashfix' for Athlons
#== If you want this 'fix' permanently, edit the INI-file:
#== Under [AVSscript] set CCEcrashfix=1

Here's my d2v avs:

LoadPlugin("C:\Downloads\Mpeg2dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\Movie\Tarzan.d2v")
BilinearResize(464,448,0,0,720,480)
#TemporalSmoother(2,2)
AddBorders(8,16,8,16)
#Trim(0,127156).FadeOut(150)
#ConvertToRGB24 # For TMPGEnc or VFAPI
#ResampleAudio(44100) # CCE 2.5 'crashfix' for Athlons
#== If you want this 'fix' permanently, edit the INI-file:
#== Under [AVSscript] set CCEcrashfix=1


By the way what is this about?

#ConvertToRGB24 # For TMPGEnc or VFAPI

I really want to understand in detail about fitCD and learn how to use temporalsmoother. Oh and with using d2v source files.

[2COOL]

Sorry,

It's about midnight around my time. It's way past my bedtime. I went back and read the previous post and I got corrected with which program temporal smoother falls under, AVIsynth.

For the record, I downloaded the current revision from their site and installed it. It was a exe file. I was thought it was plug and play. Is there anything on that install I missed?

[black prince]

Hi 2COOL,

Quote:

FitCD avs:
AviSource("C:\Movie\Test.avi")

Here's my d2v avs:
mpeg2source("C:\Movie\Tarzan.d2v")

FitCD's avs says your file is .avi. Why did
you change it to .d2v? Is your source .avi or vob's.

-black prince

[2COOL]

black prince,

I smartrip all my DVDs for VOBs and then get d2v's out of DVD2AVI. When I use that source in fitCD and inputted that into TMPGenc, I get the error. Since my second line is a d2v and it's expecting an AVI. My TMPGenc 2.58 Plus can take d2v directly in video source field but can't when using an avs. That's why I was force to use an AVIsource.

[2COOL]

Here's the update,

I decided to start from scratch again so...

Smartripper 2.41: VOBs
DVD2AVI 1.77.3: d2v and wave file.
fitCD 1.0.5: used d2v as source. Didn't change anything. Saved as avs.
TMPGenc: Open avs in Video source. I get an error statement...

Unrecognized exception!
(C:\Movie\Tarzan.dvs, line 2)

Here's my avs script:

LoadPlugin("C:\Downloads\Mpeg2dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
AviSource("C:\Movie\Tarzan.d2v")
BilinearResize(464,448,0,0,720,480)
#TemporalSmoother(2,2)
AddBorders(8,16,8,16)
#Trim(0,65684).FadeOut(150)
#ConvertToRGB24 # For TMPGEnc or VFAPI
#ResampleAudio(44100) # CCE 2.5 'crashfix' for Athlons
#== If you want this 'fix' permanently, edit the INI-file:
#== Under [AVSscript] set CCEcrashfix=1

FitCD automatically inputted an aviSource. I'm confused How do you guys get a d2vSource?

[rendalunit]

Quote:

DVD2AVI 1.77.3: d2v and wave file.

This is the problem! Use DVD2AVI ver 1.76

[2COOL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rendalunit

Quote:

This is the problem! Use DVD2AVI ver 1.76

Alright! Using 1.76 now and that works in TMPGenc. Boy, I should've heeded that word "stable". My avs script shows:

LoadPlugin("C:\Downloads\Mpeg2dec\MPEG2DEC.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\Movie\Tarzan.d2v")
BilinearResize(464,448,0,0,720,480)
#TemporalSmoother(2,2)
AddBorders(8,16,8,16)
#Trim(0,484.FadeOut(150)
#ConvertToRGB24 # For TMPGEnc or VFAPI
#ResampleAudio(44100) # CCE 2.5 'crashfix' for Athlons
#== If you want this 'fix' permanently, edit the INI-file:
#== Under [AVSscript] set CCEcrashfix=1

Now I didn't change any setting in fitCD as I just wanted to see it work in TMPGenc. Now that I can move along...one of the older questions was how to get/use TemporalSmoother. I must be not to far away.

And before I forget...THANKS for the fix rendalunit!

[rendalunit]

hey,

Now all you have to do to use the TemporalSmoother noise filter is remove the '#' sign in front of it in the script (# remarks the line).

TemporalSmoother(1,2) # use this one or
TemporalSmoother(2,2) # this one for more noisy source

also make sure that C:\Downloads\Mpeg2dec\MPEG2DEC.dll is the correct path for the MPEG2DEC.dll plugin because TemporalSmoother needs this.

-ren

[2COOL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rendalunit

TemporalSmoother(1,2) # use this one or
TemporalSmoother(2,2) # this one for more noisy source

-ren

rendalunit,

I was just playing with that theory after my last post and that didn't produce any errors. Thanks for the headups though. Now by default, I notice TemporalSmoother(2,2).
If my source is DVD, is that the normal setting or do you use (1,2) more?

Now just trying to understand fitCD...if I'm going to use a mpeg-1 template in TMPGenc then I have to change the Destination aspect to VCD? and same goes for mpeg-2s and SVCD? I noticed that in my fitCD with tarzan.dvs mpeg2Source, I get a red color error stating error: 3.57% If I change SVCD to VCD, I get error: 0%. How do I get a destination SVCD with 0% errors?

If you need anymore info , ask and I shall give.

[rendalunit]

@2COOL,

Here's what it says about TemporalSmoother in the readme file:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TemporalSmoother

TemporalSmoother(clip[,strength[,radius]])

This is a port of the TemporalSmoother filter from VirtualDub. It works in RGB32 & YUY2 pixel formats.
From VirtualDub help file:
This filter is an adaptive noise reducer, working along the time axis; it is most effective when the image is not moving much. Increase the filter strength to increase noise reduction, and decrease it to reduce speckling and ghosting artifacts. It is recommended that you combine this filter with a spatial (area-based) noise reducer for greatest effect. All frames no more than radius away are examined. Minimum radius is 1, maximum is 7. Larger values are of course slower. Default is 3, which is the value used in VirtualDub. The default value for strength is 2.

Note that unlike its VirtualDub counterpart, this filter has no lag. It ensures that the frames needed for its work are in its buffer. Therefore, random access in the clip is slow, especially with a large radius.

Example:

# The filter effects in RGB and YUV are not 100% equivalent, especially with a high strength.
# Let's visualize the difference

cYUY2 = ConvertToRGB(TemporalSmoother(ConvertToYUY2,10))
cRGB = TemporalSmoother(10)
Subtract(cYUY2, cRGB)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I had the numbers mixed up- this is what I meant-

TemporalSmoother(2,1) # use this one or
TemporalSmoother(2,2) # this one for more noisy source

I mostly used (2,2) except if the dvd was very very clean.

As far as how to set the destination in FitCD to get 0 errors- sometimes you can't get all the way to zero but you can usually get pretty close--3.57% quite a bit though!

check out my script for Lord of the Rings-

LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\Convolution3d.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\FELLOWSHIP\VIDEO_TS\LOTR.d2v")
Convolution3d (1,0,0,7,7,3,0)
BilinearResize(336,336,0,0,720,480)
#TemporalSmoother(2,2)
AddBorders(8,72,8,72)

#IL = Framecount / 100 # interval length in frames.
#SL = round(Framerate) # sample length in frames.
#SelectRangeEvery(IL,SL)

I used the 1/2 DVD template 352x480- FitCD is responsible for calculating the values for BilinearResize and AddBorders-

notice that the first two values in the BilinearResize function is the destination video size. Since this is a widescreen movie it added 72 pixel tall bars on the top and bottom and the 8 pixel wide bars on the right and left sides are with 1 block overscan checked (this makes the video a little bit smaller on the computer monitor but fills up the tv screen.)

Also notice that 336 + 16 (8,8 right & left borders) = 352
and 336 + 144 (72,72 top & bottom borders) = 480

352x480 is the destination size-

so the point of all this is play around with the buttons and sliders in the mpeg resizing window of FitCD and watch how the values in BilinearResize (or BicubicResize) and AddBorders changes

[2COOL]

[quote="rendalunit

I mostly used (2,2) except if the dvd was very very clean.


check out my script for Lord of the Rings-

LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\MPEG2DEC.dll")
LoadPlugin("C:\encoding\Convolution3d.dll")
mpeg2source("C:\FELLOWSHIP\VIDEO_TS\LOTR.d2v")
Convolution3d (1,0,0,7,7,3,0)
BilinearResize(336,336,0,0,720,480)
#TemporalSmoother(2,2)
AddBorders(8,72,8,72)

#IL = Framecount / 100 # interval length in frames.
#SL = round(Framerate) # sample length in frames.
#SelectRangeEvery(IL,SL)

[/quote]

I kinda confused. You mentioned that I should temporalsmoothing(2,2) but in your Lord of the Rings Script, it's commented out and you are using Convolution3d. Isn't convolution3d used for noise reduction too?

Anyway, I'm still trying to understand video lingo. I know what artifacts are. I know what macroblocks are. When I mean video noise, it's when I look at a edge or line, there's that lingering blurry field on it. Am I talking about the same thing when people say video noise? When I tried using temporalsmoother(2,2), the macroblocks have decreased in my opinion but I still have the about the same noise around defining lines. Only when I go up to SVCDs templates do they disappear 95%-99% of the time. I've been using Disney's Tarzan as my frontier project and after a spindle of coasters and a milion hours, I can't seem to master the art.

I know someone out there has done a (under-90 min) Disney animation DVD using TMPGenc. I know some out there has also successfully attempted to put this movie on a single CD-R, leave room for VCD chaptering, and producing awesome near DVD-quality results.

Anyway, I just got done with a Tarzan sample mpg with using KVCD-CQ-352x240-_NTSCFilm_-PLUS template. My avs does had temporalsmoother(2,2) uncommented. I viewed on PowerDVD and burnt it with Nero. With monitor or TV, it still looks crappy.

Thanks for the TemporalSmoother info rendalunit

[rendalunit]

Yes, Convolution3D is another one of the many noise filters and that's the one I used for Lord of the Rings. Try them both and you decide which one you should use If you just encode a short sample and view it before burning, then you can cut down on the amount of coasters you make.

[black prince]

Hey 2COOL,

Try increasing Tmpgenc's CQ VBR and see if the quote noise reduces
or disappears.

-black prince

[2COOL]

Quote:

Originally Posted by black prince

Hey 2COOL,

Try increasing Tmpgenc's CQ VBR and see if the quote noise reduces
or disappears.

-black prince

black prince,

I took your advice and gave it a try.

TESTS:
KVCD-CQ-352x240-_NTSCFilm_-PLUS template: Raised that default CQ_VBR from 35 to 100(max).

KVCDx3-MPEG-1-NTSCFilm template: Default CQ_VBR was 25 and I saw little noise and I could've live with that. I decided to raise that to 40 anyway to see what would happen.

I used half the Disney's Tarzan as my test sample. I also like my mpegs chaptered so I use VCDeasy VCD 2.0 on both afterwards.

RESULTS:

KVCD-CQ-352x240-_NTSCFilm_-PLUS : Some noise went away but it still didn't look great.

KVCDx3-MPEG-1-NTSCFilm: Awesome! I thought 25 was great but this one this even better. It's was say 99% DVD video quality. That put me under 600megs for the first half of the movie. I had lots of room for VCDeasy chaptering or even menus. The only glitch about using this template is that VCDeasy doesn't like 528 X 480. I would unselect the compliance check but would error out when creating the bin. I went back and changed it to 480 X 480 and that worked. I had to also uncheck compliance checking on that too.

I like to do chaptering so I VCDeasy on both templates after.

FINAL DECISION: Ideally, I would've like to put the 89 min movie on a single 80min CD-R. Using KVCD-CQ-352x240-_NTSCFilm_-PLUS would've got me there. I went with the KVCDx3-MPEG-1-NTSCFilm as I rather live with quality instead of quantity. I'm now doing the other second half on another CD-R using again the x3 template.

I used the mpeg-1 template because, it worked on my brother's APEX and my Sony. His can play SVCDs and mine can't. When I get a better SVCD playing unit, I'll start doing using the x3 MPEG-2 template. That would be paradise!