Quantcast KDVD: Resize or Not Resize, that is the Question. - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
09-06-2005, 01:43 AM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Is it worth to resize to 704*576 when we are doing 1:1 or 2:1 DVD backups?
If we keep resolution 720*576, encoding will be really faster, or not?
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  #2  
09-06-2005, 03:14 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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For 1:1 I use to not resize to not introduce artifacts due to the resize (whatever the resizer, there is always more or less artifacts).
But for a 2 movie DVD (is that what you call 2:1 ?) you should resize to 704 because you will gain a lot of precious bits.
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  #3  
09-06-2005, 04:22 AM
digitall.doc digitall.doc is offline
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That's what I usually do, resize to 704x576.
A doubt: also resize to 704x576 when encoding anamorph?.
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  #4  
09-06-2005, 04:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitall.doc
A doubt: also resize to 704x576 when encoding anamorph?.
Yes it is.
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  #5  
09-06-2005, 06:56 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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720 --> 704 via resizing??? Since we do encodings in 704 we never used "resizing" from 720. That will end up in a generic PAR and not 128/117!

IF we go from 720 to 704 then we do use CROP, why?
Because both will be played back using 13.5Mhz.

The window of 720 is 53,333µs
The window of 704 is 52,148µs
The window of TV is 52,000µs

So 704 comes nearest to the TV. All other higher widths can only bee seen on a NON Analogue TV device like a PC Monitor.

When using 720 or 544 that is inefficient for TV purposes 704 or 528 is the best relation IF you do encode for TV purposes.

So 704 by just using crop doesnt result in resizing interpolation artefacts, its faster and anyway you wouldn't see the pixel data gain of 720 on your TV.
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  #6  
09-06-2005, 07:12 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
720 --> 704 via resizing??? Since we do encodings in 704 we never used "resizing" from 720. That will end up in a generic PAR and not 128/117!
Calm down ! Do you know about Fitcd ? *
All what you are speaking about is managed by crop/border calc. Noone never meant that the resize is done by a simple XXXrezize(704,576) command line in the script.

* for memory : 720 -> 704 with FitCD first crops to 712, then resizes.
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  #7  
09-06-2005, 07:18 AM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
720 --> 704 via resizing??? Since we do encodings in 704 we never used "resizing" from 720. That will end up in a generic PAR and not 128/117!
Calm down ! Do you know about Fitcd ? *
All what you are speaking about is managed by crop/border calc. Noone never meant that the resize is done by a simple XXXrezize(704,576) command line in the script.

* for memory : 720 -> 704 with FitCD first crops to 712, then resizes.
But this is to apply resize.
Why doesn't crop straight to 704?
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  #8  
09-06-2005, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater64
Why doesn't crop straight to 704?
For the same reason to use overscan : why not have ON the screen all the pixels that are IN the video ?
Using crop will give you the same film area that if you read directly the DVD on the TV set, but not all the picture that you should have on an over screen like a plasma (or like Inc says : "on a NON Analogue TV device like a PC Monitor")

But of course, this introduce some artifacts so you can choose to loose pixels insteed.

Not: I just checked my scripts and for a 1 movie DVD I crop to 704 then letterbox for overscan. I thought I encoded in 720 but no, I never used that res finally.
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  #9  
09-06-2005, 07:28 AM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater64
Why doesn't crop straight to 704?
For the same reason to use overscan : why not have ON the screen all the pixels that are IN the video ?
Using crop will give you the same film area that if you read directly the DVD on the TV set, but not all the picture that you should have on an over screen like a plasma (or like Inc says : "on a NON Analogue TV device like a PC Monitor")

Do we have to discuss that anytime ?
So what must I do to avoid resizing, please.
Crop and letterbox, crop and addborders.
When we use FitCD or Moviestacker, they give a script with resizers, so they are resizing. Hot to do for not resizing?
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  #10  
09-06-2005, 07:30 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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I answered in my previous post (that I was modifiying while you typed your question )

Quote:
Not: I just checked my scripts and for a 1 movie DVD I crop to 704 then letterbox for overscan. I thought I encoded in 720 but no, I never used that res finally.
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  #11  
09-06-2005, 07:32 AM
Prodater64 Prodater64 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
I answered in my previous post (that I was modifiying while you typed your question )

Quote:
Not: I just checked my scripts and for a 1 movie DVD I crop to 704 then letterbox for overscan. I thought I encoded in 720 but no, I never used that res finally.
Thanks.
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  #12  
09-06-2005, 07:37 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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And the script, extracted from a very old thread (that means that the filters used are now obsolete - forget this part) :
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....ght=crop#68572
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  #13  
09-06-2005, 07:50 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil
* for memory : 720 -> 704 with FitCD first crops to 712, then resizes.
In case of NTSC to PAL or if format is untouched but resized overscan is applied then this makes sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater
So what must I do to avoid resizing, please.
Crop and letterbox, crop and addborders.
Like Phil mentioned.

crop from 720 to 704x576 and apply an overlayed overscan by using letterbox(16,16,16,16) finally

This avoids scaling/interpolation and shows the DVD content in its samne area like it would have been played back as original where also these pixels in the letterbox area wouldnt have been shown.

You can use the argument "But I want to keep/see more of the given 720x576 active pixels." But then you have to resize.
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  #14  
09-06-2005, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
You can use the argument "But I want to keep/see more of the given 720x576 active pixels." But then you have to resize.
I know that, and I give not to those periferic pixels any importance if the increased encoding speed compensates it.
Thanks.
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  #15  
09-07-2005, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prodater64
I give not to those periferic pixels any importance if the increased encoding speed compensates it.
Luis,
Encoding at 704 is faster to encoding at 720, this answer to your question about speed.

But this 704 can be obtained by cropping or resizing. And the two methods won't have a great difference in term of speed (except if you use Lanczos as resizer that is a little slow).

So your choice is still : do you want to lost pixels (and so use crop) or to keep all pixels (and then use resize).
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  #16  
09-07-2005, 07:48 AM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
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Quote:
Code:
Mpeg2Source("PATH\NAME.d2v",cpu=4)
Crop(8, 72, 704, 432) # 72_72
#Crop(8, 16, 704, 544) # 16_16
#Crop(8, 0, 704, 576) # fullscreen

FluxSmooth()
TemporalCleaner(ythresh=5,cthresh=7)
Undot()
DCTFilter(1,1,1,1,1,1,0.5,0)
#Addborders(0,72,0,72) # 72_72
#Addborders(0,16,0,16) # 16_16
LetterBox(16,16,16,16)

Note that the "72_72" means that this lien has to be used in case of movie with 72 pixels wide top/bottom borders. These are actually 2.35:1 movies.
16_16 is for 1.85:1 movies. You can check the width of the borders in DVD2AVI.
[/code]
_________________
Phil
Using crop for 704x480 (NTSC) DVD, is this correct?

Mpeg2Source("PATH\NAME.d2v",cpu=4)
Crop(8, 72, 704, 336) # 72_72
#Crop(8, 16, 704, 44 # 16_16
#Crop(8, 0, 704, 480) # fullscreen

FluxSmooth()
TemporalCleaner(ythresh=5,cthresh=7)
Undot()
DCTFilter(1,1,1,1,1,1,0.5,0)


Addborders(0,72,0,72) # 72_72
#Addborders(0,16,0,16) # 16_16
LetterBox(16,16,16,16)

Which filters are currently deemed "best" for single movie DVD's (to replace the ones above)? Simple questions, but I have a tendency to screw things up without some guidance from you guys.

Currently using only:

RemoveGrain(mode=2)
TemporalSoften(2,3,3,6,2)
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  #17  
09-07-2005, 09:05 AM
incredible incredible is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicksteel
Using crop for 704x480 (NTSC) DVD, is this correct?
totally
Quote:
......
FluxSmooth()
TemporalCleaner(ythresh=5,cthresh=7)
Undot()
DCTFilter(1,1,1,1,1,1,0.5,0)

......
You shouldnt use DCT filter anymore as it cuts too much high freqs. when applying Notch afterwards it will result too smooth. And shurely if other Detail-stealing filters have been added before.

Quote:
Which filters are currently deemed "best" for single movie DVD's (to replace the ones above)? Simple questions, but I have a tendency to screw things up without some guidance from you guys.

Currently using only:

RemoveGrain(mode=2)
TemporalSoften(2,3,3,6,2)
For a clean DVD I would only use LRemovedust(17,1) or LRemoveDust(17,2) not more according to denoising.
And even that one (even it keeps most pixels of all) does a tiny bit erase details.
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  #18  
09-07-2005, 09:29 AM
nicksteel nicksteel is offline
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Thanks, Incredible. I'm now trying to locate LRemovedust(). Several posts mention it, but it is a bit confusing.
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  #19  
09-07-2005, 09:45 AM
gamma gamma is offline
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hi nicksteel, look here for lremovedust:

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16094

It's a function, and there are 2 versions: for SSE capable and non SSE capable cpu's. You should definitely try it, it works like a charm
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  #20  
09-07-2005, 10:42 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incredible
Quote:
Originally Posted by nicksteel
Using crop for 704x480 (NTSC) DVD, is this correct?
totally
BE CAREFULL !
The values I gave (72 and 16) are for PAL sources (2.35 and 1.85). For NTSC sources I don't know how large are the black borders you have to remove. Check it first on a source !

And for filters I use RemoveGrain().Deen().
Nothing more.
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