Quantcast KDVD: KDVD or Divx - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
06-24-2004, 08:00 AM
pacheco pacheco is offline
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Hi guys. First post on the forum, but I've been here for quite a while, and I've exchanged some pms with many here before i would post.
Thanks kwag for a great site, and for answering my stupid questions when i was starting here. Thanks to Rui too
just to make sure i wouldn't make an ass out of myself
I have a question, which seems to be a little touchy at vcehelp.com
On a thread here
www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=223388
they claim that Xvid, Divx is a better alternative to kvcd,kdvd.
Well, to my eyes, and after many tests i have made, i can't really see a difference between a well done kdvd and a divx!
I have made many tests with mpeg2, and when i use the notch tables, the results are as equal as a divx.
anyone could confirm this?
Thanks.
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  #2  
06-24-2004, 09:28 AM
Fluffbutt Fluffbutt is offline
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Hehehe - one thing I've noticed about that forum is they're VERY fascist in their nature. It's their way or the highway..., and their way is to bag k-type video (kvcd ksvcd kdvd).
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  #3  
06-24-2004, 10:13 AM
kwag kwag is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fluffbutt
Hehehe - one thing I've noticed about that forum is they're VERY fascist in their nature.
Tell me about it
Quote:
It's their way or the highway...,
Maybe that's why they are in the highway
Quote:
and their way is to bag k-type video (kvcd ksvcd kdvd).
Well, I can clearly say that with the notch matrix, there's barely any difference to an AVI.

Here are some screenshots and encodes I just did, just to shut them up , where anyone can clearly see that KDVD is just as good a DivX/XviD, but KDVD will play on every standalone DVD player (underlined for our friends at vcdhelp ), but DivX/XviD will play on a handfull of standalone players.

Here's a high speed capture of an MPEG-2 KDVD (done with TMPEG):



Here's the same scene captured from the XviD:



And here's a lower motion on front, some motion on background MPEG-2 KDVD:



And the same scene with XviD:




The results are pretty clear to me
I can reproduce the same thing on low bitrates too, so XviD/DivX is out of the question for me.
As far as I can tell from that thread at vcdhelp, most people there keep insisting that our stuff is not compatible. That's correct with MPEG-1 KVCDs, but they are MISERABLY WRONG when we use all of our techniques applied to KSVCDs and KDVDs.
They just seem that don't want to accept those facts

Here are the sample files, so anyone can playback and compare, and "see the light"

http://www.kvcd.net/cowboys.avi [3776KB]
http://www.kvcd.net/cowboys.m2v [3869KB]

Both files are almost the same size, but I did the XviD as close as possible to the MPEG-2 file, using 1-pass quality based encoding set to 96
I'd say that's a pretty damn high quality value for an MPEG-4.
The average bitrate for the KDVD is only 2,773KB, which is very low for that kind of action scene.

Also NO FILTERS WERE USED, and I said that in upper case, because it seems some of our friends at that site insist that we use "heavy filtering", and that's why we get small file sizes.
Well, this proves (again) that they are plain wrong

-kwag
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  #4  
06-24-2004, 11:12 AM
pacheco pacheco is offline
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Well that explains it all!
Who needs a divx player anyways
Thanks!
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  #5  
06-24-2004, 01:30 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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I think I'm going to have some fun with these people
I just read that thread where vitualis says:

"For example, try making video clips for Pocket PCs at 320x240. You can get away with reasonable quality video with DivX at around 200-300 kbit/s depending on the video quality. Impossible with MPEG-1 or MPEG-2."

Well, because I don't post there as I quit that site a very long time ago because of their stupidities, I'll now prove (once again, as I have done before over and over again ) that they need a reality check

Here's your PocketPC version of KVCD MPEG-1 at average bitrate of 293Kbps, clearly (in overall quality) beating the CRAP out of XviD


MPEG-1 KVCD "Notch" matrix:


XviD:



MPEG-1 KVCD "Notch" matrix:


XviD:

They will probably say that this picture is "subjective", which seems one of their favorite words


MPEG-1 KVCD "Notch" matrix, low action:


XviD, low action:

Here's another "subjective" picture, where you can't even see the eyes
That's what you get on MPEG-4 object based encodings
Zoom in on those two previous images, at least 5X, and you'll clearly see the detail loss on the XviD, while the MPEG-1 version is clearly a sharper image with more details vieweable.
Pay particular attention to the face


Samples here, and AGAIN: NO FILTERS USED :

http://www.kvcd.net/cowboys-320x240.m1v
http://www.kvcd.net/cowboys-320x240.avi

These clips are meant to be viewed on a Pocket PC sized screen, or on WMP or VideoLan client without resizing. Remember that the resolution is very low, and the bitrate is extremely low.

Now, my question is:
What will be their next excuse

-kwag
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  #6  
06-24-2004, 08:35 PM
jorel jorel is offline
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after see the pictures and 2 years comparing the results(day after day)....
"i don't know why" ..... my preference is KVCD! you know the reason ?

sincere opinion: i have lots of wonderfull programs(canopus edius,CCE,vegas,adobe premiere,ulead video studio...toys like that) and they give me good results BUT 2 hours (or more) in only one cdr 700 MB with quality in audio and video
only KVCD can give me
.....the remainders need more space to give seamless quality...more space means---> "MORE" space, clear?
but divx?!?!....oh c'mon! all that hard job to see only in pc or(and maybe) in some dvdplayers!?!?
like i wrote is only my opinion but i can proove and feel what i get.
be smart...do kvcds and forget divx! play with quality in "everywhere"
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  #7  
06-24-2004, 08:36 PM
pacheco pacheco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Now, my question is:
What will be their next excuse
Well, i know for sure that one of their excuses was to ban me!
This is what i just got when i tried to log in ---

'''You have been banned from this forum
Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information'''


So i can't log in anymore at vcdhelp
And to tell you the truth, I don't give a flying F**K
I guess '''They can't handle the truth'''
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  #8  
06-24-2004, 08:40 PM
jorel jorel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pacheco
Quote:
Originally Posted by kwag
Now, my question is:
What will be their next excuse
Well, i know for sure that one of their excuses was to ban me!
This is what i just got when i tried to log in ---

'''You have been banned from this forum
Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information'''


So i can't log in anymore at vcdhelp
And to tell you the truth, I don't give a flying F**K
I guess '''They can't handle the truth'''
hey pacheco,we posted at the same time!
no matter what they send to you,here you're welcome and the best:
you will get better results in your encodes and friendship in kvcd forum!

welcome here and stay free!
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  #9  
06-24-2004, 08:58 PM
pacheco pacheco is offline
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Thanks jorel
I like the atmosphere here much better!
And i like results and explanations better than the '''words in the wind''' which is all i got back there
Keep up the good work guys.
I'll keep reading more here. I still have a lot to learn.

--> kwag, i replied to your pm. thanks!
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  #10  
06-24-2004, 09:20 PM
bigggt bigggt is offline
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Dam Karl i see you have friends all over the place first the thread at doom9 and now this one at videohelp.com

I can just imagine the ones that i haven't seen yet

Everytime i see these threads i get so mad and want to get in on it but then i realize that i am not all the bright when it comes to video stuff so i just stay out of it but i would like to thank RUI ,he always is in these threads(no matter what forum) sticking up for Karl and KVCD
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  #11  
06-24-2004, 09:36 PM
kwag kwag is offline
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Hi bigggt
Funny thread, isn't it
Some guys there have difficulty seeing "true colors"
It really doesn't matter what you try to say there. It will always be their way.
That's why I left that site a Loooooong time ago.
5 years from now, they'll be doing the same things
So be it. They loose, we win
And when blue laser, HDVD or some other technologies come around, they'll be happy to fit ~30 hours on the media, while we'll be fitting ~100 hours with the same quality on the same media

-kwag
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  #12  
06-25-2004, 04:49 AM
English Bob English Bob is offline
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Their logic is a bit strange, they go on about the format not being compatable with DVD players, even though all my SKVCD's I've made play on three different DVD players (all different makes) with no trouble at all. They tell you to make DIVX, XVID but don't tell you can only watch it on a computer screen or a dedicated DVD player which costs a lot more as well, strange logic indeed. Try to tell them about the great quality of KVCD and they bite your head off.
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  #13  
06-25-2004, 05:23 AM
SatStorm SatStorm is offline
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That's why I always send those who ask questions about kvcd / kdvd direct here without more explanations and comments.

Over the years I believe this is the only way to prevent unpleasent discussions that lead to nothing or bad comments like " they're VERY fascist". (And as you probably already noticed pacheco, I already accused for "anti americanism" at the same post, just because I tried to keep the distances between you and lordsmurf...)

Keep what you are doing here, and I hope you never loose your enthusiasm about this hobby.

Have Fun
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  #14  
06-25-2004, 06:12 AM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by English Bob
Their logic is a bit strange, they go on about the format not being compatable with DVD players, even though all my SKVCD's I've made play on three different DVD players (all different makes) with no trouble at all. They tell you to make DIVX, XVID but don't tell you can only watch it on a computer screen or a dedicated DVD player which costs a lot more as well, strange logic indeed. Try to tell them about the great quality of KVCD and they bite your head off.
Exactly! You see, I live in Brazil and there isn't any DivX player being sould here. And before anyone come and say it's a jungle here (yes some people think that), let me tell you that I have ADSL, Satellite and nearly any modern things around. Plus this players DivX players, whereever they are available, are not cheap and don't garantee to play every DivX you find ahead of you. Last time I checked none of them could handle QPel and there was a so-called DivX player that could only do 320x240 BTW, is DivX/Xvid even a standard like MPEG1/MPEG2? No You can't decode stuff encoded with the latest XVid/DivX using an older codec.
So for me, the choice is:
1) You buy a DivX player if you can, spend a lot of money and be careful to encode the way your player supports.
2) You buy a cheap DVD player, already knowing that it supports all KVCD resolutions because you tested in the store.
And if own a DVD burner, then... You can go KDVD and not worry about any compatibility problems, fitting a lot of footage in a DVD Disc just like you would do with DivX/Xvid... But being able to play in every DVD player.
I was reading the videohelp.com thread and refrained myself from making any posts because I knew it won't get anywhere. In that point I agree with SatStorm, it's better to direct people asking about KVCD here, so they can learn the full method. People there seems to only have "stick to the standard and old-faishoned ways" in their mind and they can't get beyond this nor let the others try. This is something that has been proved in that thread, with a few exceptions of course.
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  #15  
06-25-2004, 06:53 AM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vmesquita
Exactly! You see, I live in Brazil and there isn't any DivX player being sould here.
We found now models in shop that cost less than 60€ (80 US $)

Quote:
are not cheap and don't garantee to play every DivX you find ahead of you.
All low cost models are chinese product based on a PC DVD drive and, as on your PC, you just have to change the soft (firmware) to have new codecs. The only issue is the speed for the brand to deliver new firmwares.

Quote:
You can't decode stuff encoded with the latest XVid/DivX using an older codec.
That's correct but, FYI, there is no 100% compatibily either in DVDs. Sometimes you have a new DVD, usign "top of the art" authoring, that claims you to update the firmware of your player. This is not a problem of compatibility in MPEG1/2 however.

Quote:
1) You buy a DivX player if you can, spend a lot of money and be careful to encode the way your player supports.

2) You buy a cheap DVD player, already knowing that it supports all KVCD resolutions because you tested in the store.
or 3), you move to France and buy a Divx player so cheap that you can change it each year. And it does all KVCD you want

Note: I personally didn't bought one. Because for 80$ you have... hum... a 80$ picture !

Quote:
People there seems to only have "stick to the standard and old-faishoned ways" in their mind and they can't get beyond this nor let the others try.
I didn't read this thread but I guess than like on Doom9, 99% of people talking in it doesn't even understand the slighest thing in video encoding, video format, and video protocols. So let them make bubbles in the bath...
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  #16  
06-25-2004, 07:50 AM
Livlander Livlander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
I didn't read this thread but I guess than like on Doom9, 99% of people talking in it doesn't even understand the slighest thing in video encoding, video format, and video protocols. So let them make bubbles in the bath...
LOL !!
I read the thread and, guess what, Dialhot found the exact way of describing the activity at VCDHelp (although I don't know if the expression translates into english) !!
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  #17  
06-25-2004, 08:28 AM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Hello SatStorm,
I didn't know you were registered here at KVCD as well.
Then let me tell you that I am very pleased to see you around.
Also I guess I need to make one thing straight: not everybody at vcdhelp or Doom9 acts like LordSmurf.
There are plenty of nice people around those forums too, and you SatStorm, I include in this last category.
Again what I would like to see from LS or anybody there is something like:
"KVCD? Well either I don't know that much about it or it doesn't give nice-enough results, but you can dig some more info at their KVCD.net forum".
That way I wouldn't feel so pi**ed about it.
Just imagine if someone would come here asking info on XviD and Phil would just say:
"Pure crap. Stick to KVCD/KDVD!". (sorry Phil )
Don't you think that the poor guy would buy it immediatly, coming from Phil with such a big post counter.
But in the end Phil could be misleading the guy just because he wouldn't know how to configure XviD codec properly (and we know he DOES know ).
I just think that's not fair, period.
And I'll keep sending newbies back to videohelp forum, because it's one of the best (if not THE best) forums to learn from scratch.
Then if they feel like staying there permanently, fine, it's their call!
If they choose to come back and give K techniques a try, great, I'll try to give them the best help as possible.

This forum - www.kvcd.net/forum - was built by Karl, but nowadays with so many users, it's actually OUR forum!
So back at videohelp I was not only standing by Karl and Pacheco (and a few other nice guys).
I was also standing by the friendship that I sense everytime I come here.
And that I could never sense at anywhere else.
Maybe that's why others will never know that there is K techniques, and that is a big shame!
Imagine the world without MacOS/*nix/OS2/BSD...
Microsoft would rule and we would probably still be running Win 3.0 on top of MS-DOS 4.0 (that's probably 10 years ago, right?).
Cheers
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  #18  
06-25-2004, 09:06 AM
jorel jorel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by English Bob
They tell you to make DIVX, XVID but don't tell you can only watch it on a computer screen or a dedicated DVD player which costs a lot more as well, strange logic indeed.
yeah! <--exact what i feel!... ( <--they--> <--we--> )


they reading this thread will feel...they--> <--we

and i'm here still feeling-->
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  #19  
06-25-2004, 09:17 AM
vmesquita vmesquita is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
That's correct but, FYI, there is no 100% compatibily either in DVDs. Sometimes you have a new DVD, usign "top of the art" authoring, that claims you to update the firmware of your player. This is not a problem of compatibility in MPEG1/2 however.
I agree, but I wasn't talking about authoring but the audio/video streams. Anyway, there are players out there that does not support Half-D1 in DVD.

Quote:
or 3), you move to France and buy a Divx player so cheap that you can change it each year. And it does all KVCD you want
So KVCD enables each of us to live in our mother country and still encode great quality and be happy!
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  #20  
06-25-2004, 09:34 AM
SatStorm SatStorm is offline
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I am 5 1/2 years in this scene, so I'm registered almost anywhere exciting things happens.
And I might not agree with anything you talking / present here, but I can see and feel the enthusiasm you have. And that's enough for me, so to visit once a week this forum and read the various posts.

And that's why also, I said "a friendly and very active community". Because I know you from distance.

Personally, I'm not into CD based solutions and I don't focus anymore on the encoding part of this hobby. I manage to have the results that please me "my way", so this thing is concluded for me (interlace mpeg 2 and how to encode it). I basicly focus on filtering analogue sources I capture from various media (from old VHS tapes to HDTV DVB transmissions) and learn in deep that part, without the use of avisynth (which I don't like at all, even if I respect it and realise the need of it).

About the forums: There are entry and advance forums, also forums based on cutting edge or average things. I won't determine what this or that forum is, neither which is better. I only say that each forum gathers the type of the users that represents.

Here, you are very determined on what you are try to do and succeed. Those posting here, test and explore specific things. Don't expect the same attitude and the same enthusiasm you have here about kvcd/ kdvd elsewhere. Neither the same reaction. I know myself about it (just read the responses I had when I publish about CVD, 2 years ago ... )

Anyway, personally, I point direct to this place here, when someone ask information about kvcd / kdvd. And I don't rise a critic about it.
This is, I believe, the best solution

And as I said, Keep what you are doing here, and I hope you never loose your enthusiasm about this hobby.
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