Quantcast Switching Forced Subtitles When Switching Audio Track? - digitalFAQ.com Forums [Archives]
  #1  
12-20-2004, 05:07 PM
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Hi all,
I've done several 2-film KDVD. I usually encode the movie and mux 2 audio tracks and english subtitles. I use Ifoedit for muxing and author with DVDlab.

Now I want to backup StarWars, and noticed forced-subs in episode VI. So I muxed 3 subtitle streams: 1 english, and 2 forced (spanish and english). No problem to get here. And I hope there won't be a problem when loading this VOB in DVDlab.

But what I want now is: begin with spanish language and forced sub on (no problem with this: can be done with IFOedit added precommands), and when switching to english language, switch also forced subs to englisg. And if selecting english subs (not forced ones), switching off forced subtitles. That's the way commercial DVDs work.

Any suggestion/help?
Thanx for your help, in advance.
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  #2  
12-20-2004, 05:24 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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For the "switch off" forced when you start the normal ones, don't worry, it's automatic (I wondered about that also )

For the switch between audio, are you sure that changing audio "on-the-fly" is allowed on the original disc and switch the subtitles at the same time ?
VERY often the on-the-fly switch of audio is forbidden and can be done only using a menu (don't forget that DVDDcrypter and DVDShrinks remove these limitations called PUOs).
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  #3  
12-20-2004, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
For the "switch off" forced when you start the normal ones, don't worry, it's automatic (I wondered about that also )
Nice, I was afraid I would make a mess with 2 different subtitles overlayed at the same time

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
For the switch between audio, are you sure that changing audio "on-the-fly" is allowed on the original disc and switch the subtitles at the same time ?
For the first question: I don't remember in this particular DVDs (I'll test), but I was able to switch on-the-fly in some commercial DVDs (I may be wrong: mine are becoming so close to commercial ones that I may be wrong . Of course, KDVD has got even better image than some commercial ones ).
For the second, no, I don't know/remember. But I would like to make my DVD work like this: when changing audio, change forced subs. Can you imagine a way this can be achieved?.
If not, what do you suggest then?, should I make a language selection menu for each film?. If yes (I'd prefer not: more straitforward), how am I supposed to change languages and subs according with what is selected in language menu?. Maybe the answer to my last question is obvious, but as I never did it...

As always, thanx for your helpful comments.
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  #4  
12-20-2004, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitall.doc
For the second, no, I don't know/remember. But I would like to make my DVD work like this: when changing audio, change forced subs. Can you imagine a way this can be achieved?.
I fear this is not possible : on-the-fly change does not go throught authoring. It's managed by the player itself (it's like switching a track in a ogm on your PC).

Quote:
If not, what do you suggest then?, should I make a language selection menu for each film?. If yes (I'd prefer not: more straitforward), how am I supposed to change languages and subs according with what is selected in language menu?. Maybe the answer to my last question is obvious, but as I never did it...
It is not obvious. It's really tricky ! I did not have the heart to go till the end
http://www.mediachance.com/dvdlab/tu.../amanager.html
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12-21-2004, 04:09 PM
digitall.doc digitall.doc is offline
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Thanks Phil, I'll give it a try... and post if I get to good result. I'm still not very confident with DVDlab when muxing.

And this takes me to another question: as I told you I usually author my DVD with DVDlab importing VOBs previously muxed with IFOedit... this way how worked wonders for me. But if I follow the guide you linked me, I'll have to load in DVDlab the audio, video and subtitle streams, isn't it?.

I tried to load the subtitle.sub file generated by VobSub Configure, but it doesn't it well. I tried with a subtitle.srt made with SubRip and loaded OK but subtitles are the name of graphic files (00000.sup 00001.sup and so on). Which subtitle program do you recommend me?, in DVDlab help talk about Subtitle Workshop, is that OK?.

Hope all this will worth it... well, in the end it always does worth it

Merry Christmas to everybody!.
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  #6  
12-21-2004, 05:29 PM
digitall.doc digitall.doc is offline
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... a fast update,
Subtitle Workshop doesn't seem to rip subtitles from vob. It doesn't also accept .sup format from IFOedit and VOBedit, nor .idx .sub from VobSub Configure.
It loads trillions of subtitle formats, and it seems you can adjust trillions of parameters of those subtitles...
But I need to rip them first, and that tool I'm used (VobSub Configure) doesn't work with DVDlab. Can I convert my .idx/.sub files to a format DVDlab can read?. Or would it be better to rip the subtitles directly with other tool, in a format DVDlab can read?. I tried with SubRip, but I'm afraid I'm doing it wrong.
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  #7  
12-21-2004, 05:39 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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I tested only one format for subtitle : TEXT set files ! You must use OCR with subrip to generate the rext file from the graphics.

DVDLabPro is also supposed to import graphic formats like DVDMaestro's son files (taht you can generate with subrip) but I never tried it.

Note: there is also a tools called sub2son that I used once and works well to convert tue sub extracted from your vobs into son files.
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  #8  
01-07-2005, 06:26 PM
digitall.doc digitall.doc is offline
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First of all, thanx Dialhot for the link you posted in this thread. I advise you to try and test it, because it really works and is not as difficult as it seems in a first sight. And gives a better look to my KDVDs.

Now, some comments in my experience with this task of creating menus to select language and subtitles.

First: I solved the forced subtitles question by adding them to the language with subtitles off selection. I mean: when I select spanush and subtitles off, I really select aduio spanish and subtitles spanish forced ones.

Second: I recommend to generate vobs with Ifoedit. Maybe just a question of personal taste. But I keep original format for subtitles, while in DVDlab you use text mode and have to select a font and size for subtitles, so they look different. And second, but important, when I tried to author with DVDlab a film with 2 audio and 3 subtitles, it gave me an error. So I muxed first with Ifoedit, joined vobs with DVDshrink, and imported in DVDlab. No problem with authoring, and plays great in my SAP.
I didn't the VTS command recommended in guide, but it's not that important...

Third: You'd better remember, after compiling the DVD, and before leaving DVDlab, to set correctly the number and type of audio languages. And also remember to paste original colours of subtitles in Ifoedit.

Fourth: when I tested the authored DVD in PowerDVD, it played well, but when selecting in menues it played the wrong subtitles. When I played in my SAP it played well. This is not the first time that I have a problem in PowerDVD and plays well in SAP.

Fifth (don't worry, and last): I used some fixed images in DVDlab for menus background. But DVDlab resizes them so they look bigger than original (I used a short clip for transition between root menu and language menu, and the still was the same as last frame, so it had to look all the same. But when it came the still, it looked bigeer ).

Well, all I can add is: go and try this tutorial. It's easy and will give a proffesional look to your already proffesional KDVDs.
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  #9  
01-07-2005, 07:14 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitall.doc
Second: I recommend to generate vobs with Ifoedit. Maybe just a question of personal taste. But I keep original format for subtitles
Be carrefull, I warn you to double check the subtitles TILL THE END OF THE MOVIE !
IfoEdit does not handle mutliple vob id in vobsub files. And very often (generally at layer break), there is a change of vob id (you can see this in the ifo). At this moment, the subtitles vanishes ! I have this on 3 DVD on 5 so I definitely stop using this method (even if I did tried with new version 0.971)

Secondly, be carrefull if you resize the video : the subtitles aren't resized !

(question : how DVDLabPro handles existing subtitles in vobs ? Does they appears in the timeline ?)

Quote:
Third: You'd better remember, after compiling the DVD, and before leaving DVDlab, to set correctly the number and type of audio languages. And also remember to paste original colours of subtitles in Ifoedit.
I suggest you to try SubReMap
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  #10  
01-07-2005, 08:12 PM
digitall.doc digitall.doc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Be carrefull, I warn you to double check the subtitles TILL THE END OF THE MOVIE !
IfoEdit does not handle mutliple vob id in vobsub files. And very often (generally at layer break), there is a change of vob id (you can see this in the ifo). At this moment, the subtitles vanishes ! I have this on 3 DVD on 5 so I definitely stop using this method (even if I did tried with new version 0.971)
Well, I'll have to check this, since I just tested the begining of the films, not to the end. I hope everything is OK, it would be sad having to redo all the work again. Will this be fixed by ripping the original DVD in just one vob, instead in splitted original ones? (maybe silly question, as I don't really know what vob id is...). What method do you use then?.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Secondly, be carrefull if you resize the video : the subtitles aren't resized !
I resized Lord of the rings to 352x576 and subtitles show OK (but I don't remember now if I tweaked the .idx file...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
(question : how DVDLabPro handles existing subtitles in vobs ? Does they appears in the timeline ?)
No, they don't appear. You have also to tweak later in the vts.ifo the info about subtitles, related to which language is each subtitle, or the info displayed in SAP will be wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
I suggest you to try SubReMap
The Ifoedit way is really easy. And I remember I read once you use Subremap and Googled for it, but found little results, and no link to this tool... . I found lots of entries for Supremap, but don't think this is the tool you refer to. Could you please give me a link to Subremap.
Thanx pal.
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  #11  
01-07-2005, 08:38 PM
rds_correia rds_correia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitall.doc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
I suggest you to try SubReMap
The Ifoedit way is really easy. And I remember I read once you use Subremap and Googled for it, but found little results, and no link to this tool... . I found lots of entries for Supremap, but don't think this is the tool you refer to. Could you please give me a link to Subremap.
Thanx pal.
Hi digi.doc ,
Yes Phil is talking about SupRemap.
It is spelled with a 'p' instead of a 'b' because of the subtitle format used by ifoedit, that is *.sup .
Cheers
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  #12  
01-07-2005, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitall.doc
Will this be fixed by ripping the original DVD in just one vob, instead in splitted original ones? (maybe silly question, as I don't really know what vob id is...). What method do you use then?.
No it is not. You have to change the ids in the idx file generated by vobsub.
Let say you have 26 chapters (cells) in you DVD and 2 vob id are used, then in the file you will find lines "VOBID1 CELL1"..."VOBID1 CELL2"..."VOBID1 CELL13"..."VOBID2 CELL1"... You have to renumber everything with VOBID1 and CELL from 1 up to 26.

Quote:
I resized Lord of the rings to 352x576 and subtitles show OK (but I don't remember now if I tweaked the .idx file...)
It's possible then than the video is resized to it's normal sizee (to be displayed) and then the subtitles are added, so they are always with the correct size. I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
No, they don't appear. You have also to tweak later in the vts.ifo the info about subtitles, related to which language is each subtitle, or the info displayed in SAP will be wrong.
Really a LOT of work then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Supremap, but don't think this is the tool you refer to.
In fact it is supremap.
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  #13  
01-08-2005, 07:20 PM
digitall.doc digitall.doc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
You have to change the ids in the idx file generated by vobsub.
Let say you have 26 chapters (cells) in you DVD and 2 vob id are used, then in the file you will find lines "VOBID1 CELL1"..."VOBID1 CELL2"..."VOBID1 CELL13"..."VOBID2 CELL1"... You have to renumber everything with VOBID1 and CELL from 1 up to 26.
And if I did this, would still the proccess work?. I mean: vobsub -> subtosup -> ifoedit. Yes, it's the hard way, but I prefer to keep original subtitles. What's the way you use for your subtitles, Phil?.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Really a LOT of work then.
Not really, as I work as much with 3 subtitles. It takes 10 seconds to change them in the ifo.

Do you know other way to keep original subs?. I could even forget them, but as I told you DVDlab Pro threw an error when trying to compile a DVD with 3 subs in a movie and 1 sub in the other.
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  #14  
01-08-2005, 07:41 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitall.doc
And if I did this, would still the proccess work?. I mean: vobsub -> subtosup -> ifoedit.
Yes it is.

Quote:
Yes, it's the hard way, but I prefer to keep original subtitles. What's the way you use for your subtitles, Phil?.
I use something on my remote called "button".
In fact my player is set by default to play english + subtitles. In rare case I need to have french + no subtitle, I just change the audio and switch of subtitles manually. I don't see the point to spend so much time to author a DVD for feature I won't use more than 10% percent of the time.

Note: for my first DVD I used to spend hours to do authoring (animated menu, transfitions, scene selection menus using stills I extracted from the original menus of the DVD...).
After the 10th DVD, I stopped. I have more than one hundred KDVD now... I let you imagine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Not really, as I work as much with 3 subtitles. It takes 10 seconds to change them in the ifo.
I was refering to the whole process of authoring, not only this point about subtitles.

Quote:
Do you know other way to keep original subs?. I could even forget them, but as I told you DVDlab Pro threw an error when trying to compile a DVD with 3 subs in a movie and 1 sub in the other.
There is no way to keep original subs.
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  #15  
01-09-2005, 01:08 PM
digitall.doc digitall.doc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
I use something on my remote called "button".
... a "button" ... really!?


I see for your answer that I did not explain myself well.
When you hit a "button" on your remote, you change selection of audio or sub track that are already compiled and present in your KDVD... what I wanted to know is how did you add these subtitles to your KDVD, that you can select later. Do you just "rebuild" your KDVDs?, if not, how do you insert subtitles in your KDVD?. Do you compile them with just one or several?.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
After the 10th DVD, I stopped. I have more than one hundred KDVD now... I let you imagine.
I see. I just authored 10 KDVD, and I don't mind to expend time in the proccess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
There is no way to keep original subs.
Hmmm. I thought that with graphic subtitle format (.son, .sst and so) you stored a bitmap of the original subtitles, that was overlayed later, keeping in this case the original. I don't know if it does work the same with vobsub and .sup. But I would swear they looked the same as original.

Hope I'm not tiring you with my questions. Maybe you gave me the way by tweaking the original .idx and the -> .sup -> ifoedit, since I don't mind to dedicate some time else when doing KDVDs... I just ask for your way since I know that we all can learn a lot of each other (well, more from some "other" than "another". That's why I keep asking... )
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  #16  
01-09-2005, 01:22 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitall.doc
how did you add these subtitles to your KDVD, that you can select later.
I always proceed by OCR with DVDLab. I never faced thhe problem you had.

Quote:
Do you just "rebuild" your KDVDs?, if not, how do you insert subtitles in your KDVD?. Do you compile them with just one or several?.
Generally one, and sometimes two : normal subtitles, and forced ones (that DVDLab handle also very well).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
Hmmm. I thought that with graphic subtitle format (.son, .sst and so) you stored a bitmap of the original subtitles, that was overlayed later, keeping in this case the original. I don't know if it does work the same with vobsub and .sup. But I would swear they looked the same as original.
You don't understand: you can't take the streams from the original vob and put it "as it" in your final vob because there is NO programm that handle them directly.
ALL authoring programs have their own format and you must [b]convert|/b] the original subtitle stream into this format.
That is what you do with subtosup for instance. And this is where all the problems begin (the problem with vob id is not with ifoedit in fact but with this tool. Look at the size of the sup, sometimes it is half the one of the original sub, and that is not normal).

Quote:
Hope I'm not tiring you with my questions. Maybe you gave me the way by tweaking the original .idx and the -> .sup -> ifoedit,
If you face with the problem of sup file that is not the same size than sub one, then you will need to do that.
An other way to see that is to ask to vobsub to split subtitle file for each vob id : if you have 2 files generated, then you can be sure than subtosup will convert only half of the subtitles !
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  #17  
01-09-2005, 02:58 PM
digitall.doc digitall.doc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
I always proceed by OCR with DVDLab. I never faced thhe problem you had.
Aha, maybe it was due to having just one subtitle in one movie and three in the other. But I'm not sure, since DVDlab Pro complain was about an error when muxing, nothing related to authoring... I'll try again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
ALL authoring programs have their own format and you must convert the original subtitle stream into this format.
That is what you do with subtosup for instance. And this is where all the problems begin (the problem with vob id is not with ifoedit in fact but with this tool. Look at the size of the sup, sometimes it is half the one of the original sub, and that is not normal).
Ok then, the problem is in the conversion to the sup format and not in ifoedit itself, isn't it?. But I have looked for another tool to convert sub to
sup and I didn't find. I found 2 tools to convert from srt to sup: this could be another walkaround. And maybe it could solve the vobID issue...

Another doubt: in the sup file, is there any link to the ifo/vob from where subtitles where extracted with vobsub?. If I change manually vobIDs in idx, won't this be screwed up?. Well, if you already tried this, then the answer is there's no problem in changing idx.
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  #18  
01-09-2005, 04:46 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitall.doc
I found 2 tools to convert from srt to sup: this could be another walkaround. And maybe it could solve the vobID issue...
You are speaking as if subtitle in DVDLabPro never work§. If you are starting from a srt file, the first think to do is to try in DVDLab and in the case it fails, then you can use the "ifoedit" way. But IMHO this should be the very last option.

Quote:
Well, if you already tried this, then the answer is there's no problem in changing idx.
I even did a perl script that does this work and I wouldn't have done it else
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  #19  
01-11-2005, 04:39 PM
digitall.doc digitall.doc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
You are speaking as if subtitle in DVDLabPro never work§.
No, I have not said such a thing. I think that you said that in case somebody could come to this conclusion, so I'll remark it: I just tested subtitles in DVDlab Pro once.
If I'm looking for an alternative way to include subtitles in my KDVD is just for a personal taste: I don't like much text based subtitles, as in DVDlab. But, as I always do with good advises, be sure I'll try again subs in DVDlab Pro, and will compare with the ones made with ifoedit way. Maybe I'll come to the conclusion that does not worth the effort .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
...in the case it fails, then you can use the "ifoedit" way. But IMHO this should be the very last option.
If I manage to make Ifoedit way work, why do you think it should be the very last option?. Is it for being a too much time consuming?.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
I even did a perl script that does this work and I wouldn't have done it else
You already know what comes next... Can you please link/send it to me/us?. Thanx in advance.

BTW, I'm trying right know my way with Vobedit... I'll tell you how it looks...
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  #20  
01-11-2005, 07:37 PM
Dialhot Dialhot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitall.doc
If I manage to make Ifoedit way work, why do you think it should be the very last option?. Is it for being a too much time consuming?.
Let's clarify something : we are talking here about using a text subtitle file as source. In this case, yes, the ifoedit way is far more time consuming.
Moreover, DVDLabPro let you choose the style of subtitles (border width, shadow, transparency), the font and the size. It handles twin subtitle streams (one stream to be displayer on 4:3 TV set, the other one on a 16:9) and also forced sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dialhot
You already know what comes next... Can you please link/send it to me/us?. Thanx in advance.
It is not very convenient and I hope you know the perl language:
Code:
use strict;

my $line;
my $org;
my @dest;
my $memo=-1;
my $memoid=0;

die "Nom de fichier sst manquant\n" if ($#ARGV != 0);

my $name=$ARGV[0];
die "$name pas un fichier texte\n" if (! -T $name);

undef $/;
open (IN,$name) || die "Can't read $name\n";

$org=<IN>;
close (IN);

rename($name,"$name.org") || die "Can't rename\n";

open (OUT,">$name") || die "Can't write $name\n";

foreach $line (split("\n",$org)) {
	chomp $line;
	if ($line !~ /Vob\/cell/i) {
		print OUT "$line\n";
		next;
	}
	
	$line =~ /(.*)ID: (\d*), (\d*)(.*)/;
	my ($head,$id,$cell,$tail)=($1,$2,$3,$4);

	# premiere ligne
	if ($memo == -1) {
		$memoid = $id;
		$memo = $cell;
		
		print OUT "$line\n";
		next;
	}
	
	if ($memoid == $id) {
		print OUT "$line\n";
		$memo++;
	}
	else {
		$memo++;
		print OUT $head."ID: $memoid, $memo"."$tail\n";
	}
}
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