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  #41  
07-17-2019, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dima View Post
Does it make a difference for the image quality which type of device(USB, PCI, AGP, PCIe) - for example ATI 600 USB - is used to capture the image(from VHS to digital file) ?
Yes, there are some differences in ATI AIW.
- USB is fine, one Theatre model exists
- earlier PCI and 128/Pro AGP don't really work well with XP, only Win98, so best avoided
- 7500 PCI is fine, but rare
- 7500 AGP and p ios fine
- 9000/9600/9800 often fine, but watch for interference, poor shielding on components

The ATI 600 USB is not ATI 600 PCU. The PCI is bad, USB good.
The USB is not the same as AIW, not as good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
So only use video capture devices (no matter which bus type) that are recommended. If they are not recommended, there is either a lack of information (not good) or its probably known to be a bad video capture device (not good).
As years go by, with me, "lack of information" is diminishing. I've tested so many cards now. Lots of DVD recorders, TBCs, proc amps, etc. Lots of good devices exist, but even more bad ones do. Some are just ho-hum, not great, not terrible.

I don't sell anything that isn't excellent, not what I'm about.

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  #42  
07-18-2019, 01:00 AM
dima dima is offline
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Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The USB is not the same as AIW, not as good.
You mean that USB = ATI 600 USB, and AIW = ATI AIW USB ?
Can someone show me a picture of what ATI AIW USB looks like because I can't see it on the internet(possibly a link to some photo) ?

I think that these two USB cards(ATI) are probably not young and probably since the time of their market entry appeared newer USB cards - none of these newer USB cards is not as good in terms of the quality of the captured image(from VHS to digital file) as these two USB sticks from ATI ?
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  #43  
07-18-2019, 03:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dima View Post
You mean that USB = ATI 600 USB, and AIW = ATI AIW USB ?
essentially yes

The ATI 600 USB is not a true AIW, it is based on a Texas Instrument chip

The ATI AIW USB is a true AIW, it is based on an ATI Technologies Inc. chip

--

The ATI Technologies Inc. "Theater 200" chip had a very long run, it was "over designed" using a 12 bit DAC for video capture rather than the more common 8 bit DAC.

Quote:
none of these newer USB cards is as good in terms of the quality of the captured image(from VHS to digital file) as these two USB sticks from ATI ?
correct

The newer USB capture devices used a lower resolution 8 bit DAC or 10 bit DAC and had other flaws.

In a few words, newer USB capture chips were "pickier" and "less tolerant" of older and poorer signal quality and did a "far inferior" job of capture when they did work.

New is often "not" better.. it depends on the overall context.

--

The ATI 600 USB is not based on the ATI Theater 200 chip, it is based on a TI chip.

But it had a 9 bit DAC, not as good as a 12 bit DAC, but not as bad as an 8 bit DAC.

It was more tolerant of poor signal quality without triggering a Macrovision detection event.

The ATI 600 USB could also be used on later Windows operating systems, where the ATI AIW USB could only be used on XP.

And it came much later than older ATI AIW USB which meant to some degree it was easier to find.

Also while the ATI AIW USB was a larger "box" with a separate power supply brick. The ATI 600 USB was USB port powered and did not have a separate power supply. So for laptop owners the ATI 600 USB was somewhat preferred.

But

The ATI AIW had its video connectors solidly built into the side of the box and did not need a separate dongle cable like the ATI 600 USB, which could get lost or bent and destroyed.

For all these trade-off reasons when people had a choice they might choose one over the other. These days they tend to simply find one, and if they can, later find the other.

--

In my "opinion" the ATI AIW USB is the far superior capture box, but you have to use it with XP.

It does not have to be used with a motherboard with an AGP slot, and I think having the solid video connectors on the box is better. And the power supply is external to the box, so it can be replaced with little to no effort.

But you cannot use it with Windows 10.

[note: heat can be an issue with capture devices, I bought a usb powered fan from AC Infinity and plant the capture device on top of that. It blows air across the underside and keeps the device cool. You can find them on Amazon.]


Quote:
a link to some photo
(ATI 600 USB) ATI/AMD TV Wonder HD 600 USB

tvp5150

(ATI AIW USB) ATI TV Wonder USB 2.0

theater 200

Last edited by jwillis84; 07-18-2019 at 04:06 AM.
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  #44  
07-18-2019, 04:45 AM
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theater 200 pdf
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  #45  
07-18-2019, 06:31 AM
dima dima is offline
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Thank you so much for your help.
Will I find somewhere a comparison of the quality of the captured image(the same picture frames, or the same fragment of the movie) from the VHS tape to a digital file between the ATI 600 USB vs ATI AIW USB ? [Changing only converters, all settings and connections leaving unchanged.] For PAL system.
I've heard that ATI AIW USB is supposed to be a bit better than ATI 600 USB when it comes to converting colors or something like that.
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  #46  
07-18-2019, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dima View Post
Thank you so much for your help.
Will I find somewhere a comparison of the quality of the captured image(the same picture frames, or the same fragment of the movie) from the VHS tape to a digital file between the ATI 600 USB vs ATI AIW USB ? [Changing only converters, all settings and connections leaving unchanged.] For PAL system.
I've heard that ATI AIW USB is supposed to be a bit better than ATI 600 USB when it comes to converting colors or something like that.
A forum poster just asked for the same thing in the Capture section for PAL:

> Canopus ADVC(110, 300) vs ATI AIW USB(and/or ATI 600 USB) [COMPARISON]

A thread poster then responded with several clips of a very good test pattern for each device.

The ATI AIW USB is called the ATI Wonder USB in the samples, do keep in mind the original posters question while reading those comments. The reason for requesting the samples was they wanted to compare a DV "compressed" capture device with a USB "uncompressed" capture device. Most of the discussion focuses on DV versus everything else. I would caution it looks like the Gamma on the sample for the ATI Wonder USB is boosted for some reason, tweaking it on playback reveals all of the dynamic range is present.

Of all the samples, the one from the ATI 9600 was best, but that is an AGP card that runs only under XP.. if your considering USB capture devices then its probable your not looking for a Firewire or AGP solution. Stay focused on the samples for the ATI AIW USB and ATI 600 USB and your comparisons should be valid.

Last edited by jwillis84; 07-18-2019 at 08:13 PM.
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  #47  
07-19-2019, 02:29 PM
dima dima is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jwillis84 View Post
correct

The newer USB capture devices used a lower resolution 8 bit DAC or 10 bit DAC and had other flaws.

In a few words, newer USB capture chips were "pickier" and "less tolerant" of older and poorer signal quality and did a "far inferior" job of capture when they did work.

New is often "not" better.. it depends on the overall context.
I don't understand until the end. Have you checked and compared with, for example, ATI AIW USB all USB capture cards that came out in the world after the previously mentioned as well as after the ATI 600 USB ? Are you able to say that ATI AIW USB is the best in the world to date existing image capture card[among others or only USB](in terms of obtaining the best image quality) from, for example, VHS to a digital file ?
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  #48  
07-19-2019, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dima View Post
I don't understand until the end. Have you checked and compared with, for example, ATI AIW USB all USB capture cards that came out in the world after the previously mentioned as well as after the ATI 600 USB ? Are you able to say that ATI AIW USB is the best in the world to date existing image capture card[among others or only USB](in terms of obtaining the best image quality) from, for example, VHS to a digital file ?
The problem here is you think you're asking an easy question. But that's not so.

And the question is one based on age, nothing else. But age doesn't matter. Age doesn't determine quality. Quality determines quality.

The ATI AIW USB was one of the best cards because of the Theatre 200 chipset, using custom ATI drivers to control it. Theatre chips were well regarded, well respected, because of capture quality. Unfortunately, AMD bought out ATI and discontinued the chip, as well as discontinued developing new drivers that would have allowed it to work under 64-bit OS.

Modern USB cards almost universally use generic eMPIA drivers connected to an eMPIA bridge that controls the actual underlying chipset. That in itself can be an issue, as it hides the actual chips. But even when custom drivers exist, like the ATI 600 USB or Hauppauge USB, errors were made in coding. On the ATI, you have to "hack" the registry to add audio keys, otherwise volume is too loud on ingest.

This is a marketplace listing -- not a general discussion topic. Perhaps continue this side topic in another thread.

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  #49  
07-19-2019, 03:59 PM
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Thank you for the answer and explanation(even probably partial).
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  #50  
07-26-2019, 07:02 AM
kothaufen kothaufen is offline
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any pal cards left?
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  #51  
07-26-2019, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by kothaufen View Post
any pal cards left?
Yep! I'll PM you.

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  #52  
08-05-2019, 03:15 AM
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Updated what I have left.

I've been noticing that prices on these cards have been rising. I've several sell for $99 on eBay in recent times. Which is also aggravating, seeing as how mine cost less.

I may stop selling both capture cards and VCRs next year. Unsure yet.

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  #53  
08-28-2019, 10:51 PM
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ATI AIW USB, $95 - only 1 left!
I'll take this if still available!

-- merged --

I'll purchase if you still have it.

-- merged --

I also need an good but inexpensive TBC for the following equipment:
Sony Hi8 EVO-9850
Panasonic AG-7350
I think that these were professional units back in the day.
Is the ATI AIW USB, $95 a decent capture card for these units?
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  #54  
09-01-2019, 01:11 PM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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Not sure about the Panasonic, but the Sony EVO-9850 has a built-in TBC, however, you'd likely still need a frame sync TBC like an AVT-8710.
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  #55  
09-01-2019, 02:38 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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The Panasonic does not have a TBC built in, so an Panasonic DMR-ES10 other DVR with line-tbc preferrable there. It's possible to reduce the video output level on the panasonic with a trimmer on the video3 board if you want to lower the level to reduce the clipping/posterization issues the dvd-recorder. I used that method recently with a bad tape, the level adjustment was convenient since the PAL panasonic DVR seem to clip bright areas for whatever reason.

Don't know anything about the Hi8, other than that it seems to have a TBC. Don't know whether it's similar to consumer deck TBC or if it's more fancy.
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  #56  
09-01-2019, 03:37 PM
Mike12086 Mike12086 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Yes, there are some differences in ATI AIW.
- USB is fine, one Theatre model exists
- earlier PCI and 128/Pro AGP don't really work well with XP, only Win98, so best avoided
- 7500 PCI is fine, but rare
- 7500 AGP and p ios fine
- 9000/9600/9800 often fine, but watch for interference, poor shielding on components

The ATI 600 USB is not ATI 600 PCU. The PCI is bad, USB good.
The USB is not the same as AIW, not as good.
LS,

If interface (USB, PCI, AGP) didn't matter what would be your order of recommendation from best to worst on these cards?

-Mike
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  #57  
09-01-2019, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike12086 View Post
LS,
If interface (USB, PCI, AGP) didn't matter what would be your order of recommendation from best to worst on these cards?
-Mike
Only referring to AIW cards? (And noting that XP is required for AIW.)

It depends.

Every card has weaknesses and strengths, with some being nitpicks.
- AIW PCI has mild offset, nuisance DirectX, fiddly to install, but works great for newer motherboards
- AIW USB easiest to install, but prefer Turtle Beach Santa Cruz audio over USB audio, get warm
- AIW AGP 7200/7500/8500 (Theatre 100/Rage) runs cool, but install can be fuddly because many drivers to choose from
- AIW AGP 9000/9200/9600/9700/9800 (Theatre 200) better slight % MPEG quality, better graphics lag/overlay/etc, but potential noise from shielding issues, same wide install choices as 7000s
- AIW PCIe crippled compared to PCI/AGP/USB, no longer suggested

As you can see, mixed bag. If you're looking for the one "best" card, no such thing exists. All are fine, but each has caveats. For me, it's often as easy as learning about the proposed hardware config, as I have experience with many installs.

If you want non-XP, that's another conversation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper XPL View Post
I'll purchase if you still have it.
PM'd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleeper XPL View Post
Sony Hi8 EVO-9850
Panasonic AG-7350
I think that these were professional units back in the day.
Is the ATI AIW USB, $95 a decent capture card for these units?
Neither are recommended decks. Yes, those were "professional" but sometimes that doesn't mean what you think it does. That label doesn't always refer to quality, but rather the intended use and workflow. For what we do, converting consumer analog to digital, those aren't always the best choices.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbehr91 View Post
Not sure about the Panasonic, but the Sony EVO-9850 has a built-in TBC, however, you'd likely still need a frame sync TBC like an AVT-8710.
TBCs inside players are line TBCs, which differ from external framesync TBCs. You need both.

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  #58  
09-01-2019, 11:26 PM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
The Panasonic does not have a TBC built in, so an Panasonic DMR-ES10 other DVR with line-tbc preferrable there. It's possible to reduce the video output level on the panasonic with a trimmer on the video3 board if you want to lower the level to reduce the clipping/posterization issues the dvd-recorder. I used that method recently with a bad tape, the level adjustment was convenient since the PAL panasonic DVR seem to clip bright areas for whatever reason.

Don't know anything about the Hi8, other than that it seems to have a TBC. Don't know whether it's similar to consumer deck TBC or if it's more fancy.
The EVO-9850 was a top-of-the-line editing deck with genlock, digital audio capability, multi deck control, the works (for a 90s tape editor). If the TBC is anything like the one in my EV-S7000 (another high end editor) it's likely just a line TBC. Like Lordsmurf says often on this site for video conversion/restoration work you really need both a line TBC and a frame sync TBC.

One thing that works in the EVOs favor is it has a switch between "EDIT" and "NORMAL" modes. In my experience the EDIT mode on Hi8 decks just adds noise.
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  #59  
09-30-2019, 02:56 AM
amg0314 amg0314 is offline
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Hi,

Do you still have a 600 USB ($85) left? I'd like to buy one if you do.

Thanks!
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  #60  
10-02-2019, 11:17 PM
Danfun64 Danfun64 is offline
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What in the world is the quasi-clone and how does it compare to the clone, let alone the real thing?
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