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  #1  
10-01-2010, 02:10 AM
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  #2  
12-26-2015, 12:23 PM
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Canopus ADVC-300 and Ediroln VMC-1 are the best ever made external capture boxes and the only ones with TBC.
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  #3  
12-26-2015, 02:17 PM
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The TBC works in the VMC-1 but not in the ADVC-300, from what I have read and seen. Even though they use the same TBC chip.
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  #4  
12-27-2015, 01:01 AM
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As far as I know the only difference is on the VMC-1 you can turn off the TBC but on the ADVC-300 you cannot, If it has a TBC I don't see why it shouldn't work.
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  #5  
12-28-2015, 01:31 PM
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See for yourself.
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  #6  
12-29-2015, 12:32 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
See for yourself.
Keep in mind that the best TBC is the one right inside your VCR, I don't see a lot of difference between VMC-1 and ADVC-300 TBC performance, The screen shots show that TBC is indeed working on the ADVC-300 but not as good as VMC-1 and that's one of the raisons why I went for the Roland VMC-1 few years back.

I prefer to capture to DV since I don't do editing otherwise I would capture to AVI, I personally like DV it is 4:2:2 compared to MPEG2 4:2:0, DV files can be played in most modern media players no DVD step needed, ADVC-300 and VMC-1 are one of the best professional capture boxes out there for non desktop users where the capture card is not an option, They both have real time picture adjustment on the fly a feature I sometimes need for tapes with oversaturated color due to misuse of the camcorder and need to tone it down little bit before digitizing, As far as TBC, it is recommended to use the VCR internal TBC or a combination of both which ever works best, I've read a lot of bad reviews about the ADVC-300 but this is just my opinion and my workflow no recommendation made.
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  #7  
01-01-2016, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
I personally like DV it is 4:2:2 compared to MPEG2 4:2:0
NTSC DV is 4:1:1 and PAL DV is 4:2:0 with a different configuration than MPEG-2.

Quote:
DV files can be played in most modern media players no DVD step needed
You mean set-top boxes? Which ones?
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  #8  
01-01-2016, 12:47 PM
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The Canopus ADVC TBC does nothing whatsoever. Worse yet, the 300 filtering is smeary and cannot be disabled.

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  #9  
01-01-2016, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
NTSC DV is 4:1:1 and PAL DV is 4:2:0 with a different configuration than MPEG-2.
To be honest with you, I haven't checked the PAL footage that I captured with Edirol VMC-1, but if there is a way to check the footage chroma sub numbers I will do and let you know, According to the VMC-1 spec it does DV @ 4:2:2, I used to hardware capture MPEG2 and the files where a lot smaller than the DV ones, I got a lot of pixelisation and artifacts in dark and fast scenes, with DV I got larger files and less artifacts, Don't get me wrong I'm not saying DV compresses better than MPEG2, They are both lossy however DV in my case looked cleaner, I would go AVI lossless if I do it for a living but I'm not, I just splice and delete bad scenes or stitch footages together and that doesn't need converting and transcoding nor it affects the quality.
If you know any MPEG2 USB capture box that has picture control and TBC feature like the VMC-1 I'm willing to get it and try it, I was using Pinnacle 500-USB before. I will be trying this card it is MPEG4 native, they say MPEG4 is better and more efficient than MPEG2 and I want to find out myself.


Quote:
You mean set-top boxes? Which ones?
All android boxes using native player or Kodi, NMT boxes such as HDX, TVIX, Popcorn Hour....
I have never converted my DV videos to any other format and I played them with no problem on HDX, TVIX and now nVidia shield and Pioneer Blu-ray player (played from DATA BD-R, external hard drive and thru network), They are huge files and I'm keeping them that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The Canopus ADVC TBC does nothing whatsoever. Worse yet, the 300 filtering is smeary and cannot be disabled.
I've never used it but I believe you.
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  #10  
01-01-2016, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
According to the VMC-1 spec it does DV @ 4:2:2
If you mean like what is stated on this page, it's saying that the raw analog-to-digital conversion is done at 4:2:2 before being compressed to standard DV (which doesn't support 4:2:2). Similarly, it mentions 10-bit video conversion and 24-bit audio conversion even though the resulting files will always be 8-bit video and 16-bit audio.

Quote:
I will be trying this card it is MPEG4 native, they say MPEG4 is better and more efficient than MPEG2 and I want to find out myself.
I have the USB3HDCAP. It actually uses software encoding; the included package allows H.264 software compression but the actual data sent to the computer is uncompressed 4:2:2 so it can be used to capture lossless.

Quote:
All android boxes using native player or Kodi, NMT boxes such as HDX, TVIX, Popcorn Hour....
Is there a new version of Popcorn Hour that supports this? Posts from 2014 and earlier indicate that they won't play DV.

What's the BD player model? This is the first I've heard of one that can play DV.
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  #11  
01-01-2016, 03:35 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
If you mean like what is stated on this page, it's saying that the raw analog-to-digital conversion is done at 4:2:2 before being compressed to standard DV (which doesn't support 4:2:2). Similarly, it mentions 10-bit video conversion and 24-bit audio conversion even though the resulting files will always be 8-bit video and 16-bit audio.
Since the analog video is interlaced the last number in 4:a:b is not important, Lets just talk about 4:a so if VMC-1 one encodes 4:2 to 4:1 then MPEG2 is better as it keeps 4:2 intact although I didn't see color smear on my DV footages compared to the analog source, in the other hand MPEG2 compression is harsh 25 min MPEG2 is about 900MB, DV is about 5GB for the same source.

Quote:
I have the USB3HDCAP. It actually uses software encoding; the included package allows H.264 software compression but the actual data sent to the computer is uncompressed 4:2:2 so it can be used to capture lossless.
Very interesting

Quote:
Is there a new version of Popcorn Hour that supports this? Posts from 2014 and earlier indicate that they won't play DV.
Never used popcorn, used similar boxes that used the same chip and played fine, DV is just a standard, they are AVI files, Here is an example captured by VMC-1 using Adobe Premiere:

Code:
General
Complete name                            : K:\Videos\Home Videos\James Wedding VHS\xxxxx.avi
Format                                   : AVI
Format/Info                              : Audio Video Interleave
Commercial name                          : DV
Format profile                           : OpenDML
File size                                : 4.92 GiB
Duration                                 : 23mn 13s
Overall bit rate mode                    : Constant
Overall bit rate                         : 30.3 Mbps

Video
ID                                       : 0
Format                                   : DV
Codec ID                                 : dvsd
Codec ID/Hint                            : Sony
Duration                                 : 23mn 13s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 24.4 Mbps
Encoded bit rate                         : 28.8 Mbps
Width                                    : 720 pixels
Height                                   : 576 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 4:3
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 25.000 fps
Standard                                 : PAL
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
Bit depth                                : 8 bits
Scan type                                : Interlaced
Scan order                               : Bottom Field First
Compression mode                         : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 2.357
Time code of first frame                 : 00:33:23:04
Time code source                         : Subcode time code
Stream size                              : 4.67 GiB (95%)

Audio
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : PCM
Format settings, Endianness              : Little
Format settings, Sign                    : Signed
Codec ID                                 : 1
Duration                                 : 23mn 13s
Bit rate mode                            : Constant
Bit rate                                 : 1 536 Kbps
Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth                                : 16 bits
Stream size                              : 255 MiB (5%)
Alignment                                : Aligned on interleaves
Interleave, duration                     : 957 ms (23.92 video frames)
Quote:
What's the BD player model? This is the first I've heard of one that can play DV.
Pioneer BDP-150 using a hacked firmware
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  #12  
01-02-2016, 09:27 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Since the analog video is interlaced the last number in 4:a:b is not important,
What leads you to this conclusion?

Quote:
Lets just talk about 4:a so if VMC-1 one encodes 4:2 to 4:1 then MPEG2 is better as it keeps 4:2 intact although I didn't see color smear on my DV footages
Your PAL captures are 4:2:0 with a different layout than MPEG-2 4:2:0, as I mentioned previously. The MediaInfo you posted provides you some confirmation as it states 4:2:0.

Quote:
DV is just a standard, they are AVI files
What do you mean by "just a standard"?

Quote:
Pioneer BDP-150 using a hacked firmware
So it can't play them without hacking it? That seems disingenuous to just gloss over previously.
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  #13  
01-02-2016, 06:09 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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I'm not a video professional I always believed that the b number is for chroma vertical resolution, 0 means two vertical pixels will have the same chroma value, in interlaced mode either the odd or the even lines will be displayed in a given frame so it doesn't matter if the two odd/even pixels have the same info or not. But I would like to learn from you if you are in the field.

Indeed it's 4:2:0 I just noticed it after reading your reply, I will check the other videos, If you noticed the Sony name appears in the info because I chose Sony camcorder in premiere capture wizard list the VMC-1 wasn't in the list.

Yes DV is standard, was standardized within the IEC 61834 family of standards, DV-AVI is Microsoft's implementation of DV video file, which is wrapped into an AVI container : Wikipedia source.

On the BDP-150 the CFW (custom FW) suppose to disable CINAVIA don't think it has a bearing on what types of files can be played, I will have to take my word back on that until I double check, I use the player strictly for movie playback.

I guess DV PAL by standard is 4:2:0 copy/past from Wikipedia:
"There are three variants of 4:2:0 schemes, having different horizontal and vertical siting.
- In MPEG-2, Cb and Cr are cosited horizontally. Cb and Cr are sited between pixels in the vertical direction (sited interstitially).
- In JPEG/JFIF, H.261, and MPEG-1, Cb and Cr are sited interstitially, halfway between alternate luma samples.
- In 4:2:0 DV, Cb and Cr are co-sited in the horizontal direction. In the vertical direction, they are co-sited on alternating lines.

Most digital video formats corresponding to PAL use 4:2:0 chroma subsampling, with the exception of DVCPRO25, which uses 4:1:1 chroma subsampling. Both the 4:1:1 and 4:2:0 schemes halve the bandwidth compared to no chroma subsampling"
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  #14  
01-03-2016, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
If you noticed the Sony name appears in the info because I chose Sony camcorder in premiere capture wizard list the VMC-1 wasn't in the list.
Not that it matters, but this is only a coincidence. The "Sony" thing is just hardcoded into MediaInfo; it would show that for any "dvsd" file regardless of any settings you choose.

Quote:
Yes DV is standard, was standardized within the IEC 61834 family of standards, DV-AVI is Microsoft's implementation of DV video file, which is wrapped into an AVI container : Wikipedia source.
Yeah, but my question was what you meant when you wrote "just a standard".

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
0 means two vertical pixels will have the same chroma value
In basic terms, this part is correct (though not technically accurate).

Quote:
in interlaced mode either the odd or the even lines will be displayed in a given frame so it doesn't matter if the two odd/even pixels have the same info or not
This doesn't logically follow.

This will be difficult to demonstrate on the forum, but here is a 4:2:2 capture of an interlaced 59.94Hz portion of a LaserDisc. This footage was shot with a video camera, not telecined from film.

The "A" screenshots are direct from the source file, and the "B" screenshots have been converted to interlaced 4:2:0 (sited according to MPEG-2). Because of the nature of human color perception, you need to look really closely at the highly saturated color transitions to see the difference. When either of the chroma planes is converted to greyscale, though, the resolution drop is instantly visible.

Single field chroma, A & B:
422vs420_LD_Full_UtoY_A.png
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"Before/after" single field crop 1 @ 500% zoom:
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"Before/after" single field crop 2 @ 500% zoom:
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Code:
AVISource("The Wizard of Oz Making Of - Side 1 [Bright124 Cont25].avi").AssumeTFF()

ShowFrameNumber()

Interleave(last,ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true).ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true))

SeparateFields().SelectEven() #for field screenshots
UtoY() #for field chroma screenshots

ConvertToRGB()


Attached Images
File Type: png 422vs420_LD_FullFrame_A.png (605.7 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: png 422vs420_LD_FullFrame_B.png (604.9 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: png 422vs420_LD_Full_A.png (286.1 KB, 1 downloads)
File Type: png 422vs420_LD_Full_B.png (286.5 KB, 1 downloads)
File Type: png 422vs420_LD_Crop1A_500.png (12.7 KB, 30 downloads)
File Type: png 422vs420_LD_Crop1B_500.png (12.8 KB, 30 downloads)
File Type: png 422vs420_LD_Crop2A_500.png (5.6 KB, 30 downloads)
File Type: png 422vs420_LD_Crop2B_500.png (5.5 KB, 30 downloads)

Last edited by msgohan; 01-03-2016 at 01:05 AM. Reason: Add "before/after" BBCode
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  #15  
01-03-2016, 02:54 AM
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Remember that anybody can edit Wikipedia entries. Wikipedia is an aggregate of info, and should lead to scholarly references. However, this often is not the case. Lots of wrong opinion is injected into entries. You need to be careful with what you read there. Realize that the author may know as much as you do, or even less.

@msgohan: I really like that you've used the before/after bbcode.

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  #16  
01-03-2016, 02:35 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Remember that anybody can edit Wikipedia entries. Wikipedia is an aggregate of info, and should lead to scholarly references. However, this often is not the case. Lots of wrong opinion is injected into entries. You need to be careful with what you read there. Realize that the author may know as much as you do, or even less.

@msgohan: I really like that you've used the before/after bbcode.
Yes I know, That's why I visit forums like this to hear from the people who do it in real life not just from pencil pushers.

I meant by DV is just a standard that the media player detects it as AVI not DV, none of my media players that I owned so far displays any DV word when playing the file.

On the last part I'm not following you, I never said capturing DV is better than capturing uncompressed, I said my MPEG2 captures looked worse than my DV captures due to higher compression of my MPEG2 footages, That's where I asked you if you know any MPEG2 card that does a better job.

I have a question about the screen shots that you provided, Was the chroma signal eliminated from the original video signal or the color picture converted to monochrome using photo software, I'm getting lost a little bit are you saying MPEG2 is not the way to go ??
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  #17  
01-03-2016, 03:26 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
On the last part I'm not following you, I never said capturing DV is better than capturing uncompressed
Huh? I never said that you did. All I'm trying to show is that your understanding of 4:2:2 being meaningless for interlaced video isn't correct. Interlaced video can contain separate color on every scanline just the same as progressive video can.

Quote:
I have a question about the screen shots that you provided, Was the chroma signal eliminated from the original video signal or the color picture converted to monochrome using photo software
The black & white photo is not the original image with color removed; it's the opposite: the original image's color in isolation. It's a representation of one of the two chroma planes.
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  #18  
01-03-2016, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Huh? I never said that you did. All I'm trying to show is that your understanding of 4:2:2 being meaningless for interlaced video isn't correct. Interlaced video can contain separate color on every scanline just the same as progressive video can.
Got ya, No problem, So are there any encoders out there that keep 4:2:2 of the footage captured after encoding to a playable format since neither DV nor MPEG2 keeps it? and is it worth it for the quality of an analogue video such as VHS/S-VHS/Video8/Hi8/Betamax/S-Betamax ?

I need to add a hardware question, Can I pull the uncompressed video using Edirol VMC-1 with firewire port? if so what software do I need?

I just want to share a sample of a VHS NTSC capture but I can't find a way to attach the file.
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  #19  
01-04-2016, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
I just want to share a sample of a VHS NTSC capture but I can't find a way to attach the file.
Answered here: How to Properly Upload Images and Attach Files to This Site

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  #20  
01-04-2016, 11:32 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
There is no attachment button in advanced mode, let me try another browser.

-- merged --

Wow cannot believe that internet explorer was the problem, here is a screen shot on how the page looked like: (see attached)

Anyway, here is a NTSC VHS tape that I captured with Edirol VMC-1 using adobe premiere capture wizard for demonstration purposes only, I didn't like the outcome although the tape is not in good quality, what do you guys think?, PAL captures were a lot better:

Forgot to mention that the VHS deck is Toshiba V-E61A nothing fancy.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Untitled.jpg (45.8 KB, 18 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: avi s Reading Adventure.avi (94.02 MB, 10 downloads)
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