Quantcast Best time base corrector for Betamax and VHS? - digitalFAQ Forum
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09-16-2020, 02:03 AM
ada1985 ada1985 is offline
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I'm trying to transfer Betamax and VHS tapes to Digital.. I have alot of lower quality home movies and there's some parts of the tapes that's dirty or where there's no signal, and without a TBC the device blanks out all of that and also drops frames.. I just bought a Prime Image TBC/Freeze and it does keep the signal and no frames drop but with it connected it adds other glitches, picture flickers at times, (a vertical flicker), and some times there's color bars.. Anyone could recommend a good TBC that's not too expensive that's going to work right without adding other issues? perhaps something on eBay?? I'm new to all this, and seeing different ones out there some with frame synchronization, 10bit etc.. Some have mentioned DVD recorders as a passthrough, I rather buy a standalone TBC..

Devices used: ClonerAlliance Pro box which actually does very well, Higher end Betamax VCR SL-HF750 in BII speed, which puts off a better picture than the standard two head VCRs..

Let me know..

Thanks..

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  #2  
09-16-2020, 03:03 PM
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Prime Image TBC/Freeze is worthless, bad unit, typical rackmount junk found cheap on eBay. That sort of gear was not made for consumer sources like VHS/Betamax, and will never work properly with it.

ClonerAlliance Pro is a gamer capture card, and also will never work well with consumer video source.

You need a both a video capture card, and a TBC, that was intended for VHS/Betamax type sources.

Better cards include ATI 600 USB, etc.
And frame TBC needed include models from Cypress, DataVideo, etc.
Remember to check the marketplace, for members there who have extras available (or have finished their projects).

The upgraded Betamax deck is good, but do the same for VHS with the S-VHS decks (with line TBC).

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  #3  
09-16-2020, 04:56 PM
ada1985 ada1985 is offline
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ClonerAlliance is made specially to capture analog video tape.. Sure same company that makes game capture devices, and this unit can also do that.. But it's results are the best I've seen out of all the years buying capture cards and USB devices which have all failed.. It upscales to 1280x720 at 60fps, or 1080p at 30fps, and records in lossless MP4 right to flash drive.. Don't have to deal with a computer and software setup and virualdub.. It's much more simple to use and the results as I stated.. And viewing the files on a modern smart tv, I'm very impressed... There's some faults about it that I don't care about, like it's audio compression rate is a bit too compressed even though the audio does sound good, and the On Screen Display, that pops up when there's no signal and the first 5 secs into a scene, that's the main reason wanting a TBC... That ATI you mentioned, from the research I just did looks like a TV tuner with a coaxial input.. That's already a no go, if there's no composite input, I've had bad results out of every USB device I have bought, and every PC card I have bought.. Even went out and bought the latest fast computer, and sure enough the results were still bad... I'm turned off by all these USB devices, and wasted too much money on them..

Now as for a TBC, this is what I see on eBay that looks like potential: https://www.ebay.com/itm/TVOneTask-1...53.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.com/itm/FOR-A-FA-31...53.m1438.l2649

Would any of these be a good option?
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  #4  
09-16-2020, 07:12 PM
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No. That TBC is a "black" Cypress (essentially black AVT-8710 clone).
Is my new AVT-8710 DOA? (screenshots/clips of error)

"out of all my years" honestly doesn't mean much to me, unless qualified. People can do the wrong thing over and over again, and thus their experience is all negligible. Many people buy the same cheap garbage multiple times, simply rebadged under different low-end names brands.

There is no "lossless MP4".

Upscaling is extremely damaging, even in post-capture.

Again, that card is not intended for VHS. Like all other HD cards, it claims to capture SD analog sources, but it does so very poorly. You do yourself a great disservice, and all you're doing is screwing up any chance you have of getting quality captures. The ClonerAlliance card is made for video games, period, the end. Sure, it can "also do" other sources. But that doesn't change the fact that the intention is video games. It expects that source, it's attuned to that source, and it shows.

The ATI 600 USB has a tuner, yes, but that's not why you get the card. It has composite and s-video inputs, and those are what you will use. The tuner isn't used, ignore it. I think I tested the tuner once, about 10 years ago. But I've never actually used the tuner that I can remember.

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  #5  
09-16-2020, 08:22 PM
ada1985 ada1985 is offline
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It could be "Intended" for a pleasure toy for a porn shop for all I care.. What ever the case may be.. I'm happy with the ClonerAlliance... It does what I want it to.. I'm very happy with the results... Wasn't sure about lossless but very smooth video, no pixely video with alot of moving colors on the screen or snowy video that most capture cards will do.. This puts out huge files on the highest bitrate setting.. So whats damaging about these images? and this is without a TBC, in 720x1280 mode.. Forum software is set to downsize the images so you wont see them at full 1280x720

I'm not here to argue on whats the best capture device, I'm here to get advice on whats the best TBC to use in this type of situation...

Adam


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  #6  
09-16-2020, 08:52 PM
Formica Formica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ada1985 View Post
II'm not here to argue on whats the best capture device, I'm here to get advice on whats the best TBC to use in this type of situation...
The Cloner is going to choke the abilities of a TBC that might cost $500 to $1,000. There is no good AND cheap TBC available at this point.
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  #7  
09-16-2020, 09:30 PM
ada1985 ada1985 is offline
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Making a transfer right now with the Prime Image TBC connected and seems to be more stable... Cleaned the heads of the VCRs last night, it started to stabilize, than it started to flicker again after the first transfer, now tonight it seems to working fine.. AND really, I'm not sure why these devices that are 20 years or older even worth $500 let alone into the thousands, especially when they really do not much of anything but MAYBE stabilize video from VCR tapes.. Absolutely CRAZY.. Must be something I'm missing??
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09-16-2020, 09:36 PM
Formica Formica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ada1985 View Post
I'm not sure why these devices that are 20 years or older even worth $500 let alone into the thousands, especially when they really do not much of anything but MAYBE stabilize video from VCR tapes.. Absolutely CRAZY.. Must be something I'm not getting??
They're worth that much because nobody has made a good model for a decade or more. But the thing about this whole process is that if you are happy with your results, then don't sweat it. Many people here have produced decent results but want to improve on them--that's what a lot of the discussion is about.
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  #9  
09-16-2020, 09:51 PM
ada1985 ada1985 is offline
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Thanks..

I'm pretty happy with the results.. The picture quality is actually more better than what I expected.. Just looking for a TBC that will allow the digital transfer to go over bad parts of tapes without blanking out and areas with no signal drop out, and this Cloner has OSD that records over the scenes of the tape and this Cloner's OSD will engage every time there's no signal and the first 5 secs when a scene is back.. And just trying to see whats available that will fix the problem without adding other problems to the mix..

Adam
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  #10  
09-16-2020, 10:12 PM
Formica Formica is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ada1985 View Post
Thanks..

I'm pretty happy with the results.. The picture quality is actually more better than what I expected.. Just looking for a TBC that will allow the digital transfer to go over bad parts of tapes without blanking out and areas with no signal drop out, and this Cloner has OSD that records over the scenes of the tape and this Cloner's OSD will engage every time there's no signal and the first 5 secs when a scene is back.. And just trying to see whats available that will fix the problem without adding other problems to the mix..

Adam
Some people here are interested in this as a long term hobby. But for people who have a project with a definite beginning and end, lordsmurf has a good suggestion -- buy a good unit from a known seller, even if expensive, then sell it when you're finished. There' a high demand for good TBCs and you won't lose your investment.
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  #11  
09-16-2020, 11:17 PM
ada1985 ada1985 is offline
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Maybe $500, but not $1000 and over.. I don't think there's anything currently on eBay that anyone suggests?? There's random stuff, but I don't want to keep buying stuff and having to return it because the results aren't good.. Still have to pay to ship returns and that can add up..
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  #12  
09-17-2020, 01:06 AM
Formica Formica is offline
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Maybe $500, but not $1000 and over.. I don't think there's anything currently on eBay that anyone suggests?? There's random stuff, but I don't want to keep buying stuff and having to return it because the results aren't good.. Still have to pay to ship returns and that can add up..
Many of us haunt eBay and seriously... even someone like me who is very interested in the topic of TBCs has no idea what is being offered for sale. Stuff gets old, capacitors begin to fail, the device is one of nine terrible iterations of a TBC that had one good production run, or the TBC is designed only for broadcast grade signals. Ask here before you buy, because you will be speaking to people who actually tested these units at one time.
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  #13  
09-17-2020, 01:42 AM
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Quote:
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So whats damaging about these images? and this is without a TBC, in 720x1280 mode..
To start with, resizing 480 lines of vertical resolution to 720 lines will cause some blurring (it would need to resize to 960+ lines to avoid destructive blurring), then the TBC probably tries to correct this by sharpening. Sharpening adds a halo effect. This is fine if your intention is to upload the video straight to YouTube without doing any restoration, and if composite video is good enough (that box doesn't support S-Video), but that's the only use case for that device I can think of.
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  #14  
09-17-2020, 11:23 AM
lingyi lingyi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ada1985 View Post
Maybe $500, but not $1000 and over.. I don't think there's anything currently on eBay that anyone suggests?? There's random stuff, but I don't want to keep buying stuff and having to return it because the results aren't good.. Still have to pay to ship returns and that can add up..
Start with this thread: What is a TBC? Time Base Correction for Videotapes and others by lordsmurf.

AFAIK, he's the only one here and at videohelp.com that doesn't just take other's experiences with any equipment as fact. He always states that when he gets a unit to test and evaluate, he'll post his experience and recommend the unit if it passes his stringent testing.

If you want a cheap TBC, he has one for $295 here, For sale: TBC-1000, TBC-3000, green AVT-8710. Note that he clearly posts it's flaws.

Also note that his recommended TBC-1000 is $1875, when it was well under $1000 a few years ago. As stated above, these types of units are all 20+ years old and are well past expected end of life, experiencing failure of components like caps which need to be replace. Simple supply and demand drives the market price. Even if someone were to find cases of of NOS of these units, there's no guarantee they're in good working condition.
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09-17-2020, 09:17 PM
ada1985 ada1985 is offline
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Boy some people are gonna Pi#*ed off when they are stuck with something they spent $1875, when it becomes worth -neg value... Won't be me, that's for sure.. I'll except the results for now, or wait for something in the future.. I have way more better things to spend money on...
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  #16  
09-17-2020, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ada1985 View Post
Boy some people are gonna Pi#*ed off when they are stuck with something they spent $1875, when it becomes worth -neg value...
You have a limited and backwards mindset about video.

You probably used a cheap point-and-shoot Polaroid camera in the 70s/80s/90s, yes? It took terrible photos, and you knew it, but did it anyway. However, when you wanted quality photos, you went to a studio (and smiled at the guy/gal, and said "cheese"). Other people were not so easily satisfied, nor so willing to fork over cash to weird dude/chick at the studio. So they became DIY photographers, and bought SLRs. Both hobbyists and pros bought 35mm SLRs. Not just SLRs, but lenses, filters, film, etc.

I'm sure you're now think it all has a "-neg value", right? WRONG!

The best lenses are still extremely valuable. They've either held value, or even increased in value, in past years ... in past decades! One of my best lenses has held the same value for 19 years now.

The best TBCs are the best lenses. Demand for those will not go away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lingyi View Post
Also note that his recommended TBC-1000 is $1875, when it was well under $1000 a few years ago. As stated above, these types of units are all 20+ years old and are well past expected end of life, experiencing failure of components like caps which need to be replace.
Yep, and I also didn't have to teardown the units, and rebuild, 20 years ago. It's seriously gotten to the point where I now have dismantle almost every TBC for cleaning and repair. Some of the units can take me a month to redo. But I'm also ensuring that it can last another decade.

Quote:
Even if someone were to find cases of of NOS of these units, there's no guarantee they're in good working condition.
This has been a huge problem on eBay since end of 2019. There are at least two eBay sellers that got their hands on a stash of "new" TBC-1000s. By indirect means (from the buyers), I've now seen 3 of these. Each "new" unit was tampered with, even though it had DataVideo factory seals on it. So these may be factory returns, duds, that DataVideo warranty repaired. Or just warrantied, period, no repairs. So far, I've been able to rebuild 2 of these.

There's also some sellers that peg their prices against mine. But they do nothing to the units, and it's an expensive gamble for the buyer.

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  #17  
09-17-2020, 11:02 PM
lingyi lingyi is offline
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You're just one of THEM! as betelman recently posted at videohelp https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...one-more-thing

"You're all a bunch of purists!"

Luv ya blue guy!
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  #18  
09-18-2020, 12:35 AM
ada1985 ada1985 is offline
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Hmmm, lets see.. In the 1970s I was not around for the most part.. In the 1980s I was a kid.. In the 1990s I was still in high school.. As a teenager you think most kids at the age of 16 really know how to use a camera? It's not like I was trying to shoot a movie for paramount pictures to release on a home consumer betamax camera hahaha..

So now you're upset obviously, and now taking it personal due to the simple fact that I'm publicly disagreeing with you.. You may spend thousands on a TBC, but I'm sure as hell not going too.. Just because a few handfuls of video snobs artificially jack the price up on equipment that I'm getting sucked in it.. [redacted].. I'm no genius at any of this, but If I was the dunce, I would have sent you $1875 by now.. I've heard similar storys in other places on this same model.. So basically you are saying that same thing.. Why in the hell would I buy something that's artificially jacked up when you and me both know that price isn't gonna stick?? I'll find what I'm looking for, and most likely at $500 or under.. I bought a $2500 new mirrorless camera which is a smart investment.. an $1875 TBC isn't.. And no way that I'll be convinced..

I'm not an expert on lenses, but it doesn't take a genius to figure out the fact that very old lenses don't lose much value due to the fact they still can be used with new cameras.. Your beloved $1875 TBC won't be, not even 10 years from now...

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  #19  
09-18-2020, 01:27 AM
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We're not wasting any more time on this thread.

Some ending comments...

In general, the best TBC are DataVideo and Cypress, non-flawed models, when speaking of frame TBC.

Yes, TBCs cost money. But TBCs always cost money. TBCs were almost always in the $500-1k+ range, with few exceptions. (The green AVT-8710 was a bit less, for a few years, in the 2000s.) For a while, early/mid 2010s, used TBCs were about half of current prices, sometimes even a bit less, but that didn't last (oversupply and under-demand is not likely to ever happen again).

Video is a hobby. All hobbies have costs. TBC is a cost of the video capture hobby. If only a short-term hobby, then simply buy/use/resell.

If you think TBCs will lower in cost in 10 years, then simply wait 10 more years to capture your videos.

I know of lower-cost TBC options, and would have discussed them with you, but I'm not going to subject myself to an abusive a-hole.

Good luck.

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  #20  
09-18-2020, 09:56 AM
Formica Formica is offline
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Nobody was telling you to spend $1875 on equipment. Only that this is what certain TBCs are selling for right now and that they are not losing their value.
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