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  #1  
09-25-2020, 03:13 PM
bzowk bzowk is offline
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Hey Guys -

I attempted to capture all old VHS tapes of home movies to my PC a few months ago, but had issues so am about to try again. Before doing so, I wanted to see what suggestions there were for hardware / software assuming what's available for a ~$50 budget may be better than what I have. Below is what I'd like to do, a list of my hardware, and what I had issues with before.

What I'd Like to Do
Capture VHS -> PC uncompressed, run captures through filters to clean them up. Suggestions for filters to use would be great, too!

Current Hardware / Software
- Avermedia ExtremeCap U3 Capture Card (USB3)
- Samsung DVD-VR320 VCR (Connects to capture card via Component / RCA cables)
- Avermedia RECentral software (comes with capture card however can only capture to highly compressed MP4)
- Various other software I've never gotten to work correctly like VirtualDub, older Sony Vegas, etc.
- Semi-dedicated PC running Windows 10 /w plenty of power for the job

Issues Encountered Before
- I could capture using VirtualDub, however never could get framerate to match therefore playback was too fast
- Avermedia provided plugins for Vegas & Premiere, but hardware is old therefore drivers are way out of date and don't work with recent versions. Tried using with older Vegas, but no go

If a ~$50 hardware upgrade and/or capturing uncompressed before filtering won't make much of a difference, please just let me know.

Any suggestions? Thanks!
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  #2  
09-25-2020, 04:02 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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How are you hooking it up? The manual would suggest component output only works for DVD on that VCR.
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  #3  
09-25-2020, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bzowk View Post
Hey Guys -

I attempted to capture all old VHS tapes of home movies to my PC a few months ago, but had issues so am about to try again. Before doing so, I wanted to see what suggestions there were for hardware / software assuming what's available for a ~$50 budget may be better than what I have. Below is what I'd like to do, a list of my hardware, and what I had issues with before.

What I'd Like to Do
Capture VHS -> PC uncompressed, run captures through filters to clean them up. Suggestions for filters to use would be great, too!

Current Hardware / Software
- Avermedia ExtremeCap U3 Capture Card (USB3)
- Samsung DVD-VR320 VCR (Connects to capture card via Component / RCA cables)
- Avermedia RECentral software (comes with capture card however can only capture to highly compressed MP4)
- Various other software I've never gotten to work correctly like VirtualDub, older Sony Vegas, etc.
- Semi-dedicated PC running Windows 10 /w plenty of power for the job

Issues Encountered Before
- I could capture using VirtualDub, however never could get framerate to match therefore playback was too fast
- Avermedia provided plugins for Vegas & Premiere, but hardware is old therefore drivers are way out of date and don't work with recent versions. Tried using with older Vegas, but no go

If a ~$50 hardware upgrade and/or capturing uncompressed before filtering won't make much of a difference, please just let me know.

Any suggestions? Thanks!
Being on a budget means cutting corners, and it always affects quality (negatively). However, decent setups can be created.

The Avermedia ExtremeCap U3 Capture Card is a "gamer" capture card, and the intended source is not consumer analog videos. You will have significant problems. It expects pristine source, and even a TBC can give issues, as is the case with all HD capture cards (gamer or not, including Blackmagic, Magewell, and others).

Samsung VCRs would have been fine, except for the fact that it always slaps a big "TRACKING" on screen at various times (when auto-trackingthe tape), and there's no way to turn it off. It's ugly. Fugly. There's one VCR specifically that I would have liked for capture (in a budget setup), but that is a deal-breaker for me.

Ave software is junk. VirtualDub is what you need.

Win10 is often a problem OS, as updates frequently causes problems. But it can be done, with the right cards.

You also lack any degree of TBC, and won't work. The ES10/15 is minimalist -- half@ss actually, because it's 50% of a better TBC(ish) setup involving the DVK, and that gives a 99% performance, though with ES10/15 side effects (posterization, aggressive NR, PAL luma). But even the ES10/15 (line-like) alone is better than nothing, noting you'll still have a fail rate and problems with out the DVK/5000 to provide (weak) frame.

$50 won't do anything here. The ES10/15 is about $150, better capture card at least $100, non-TBC JVC S-VHS VCR $150, and it's still a shaky setup.

What you have now will likely entirely fail -- and that seems to have been the case on your last attempt. Don't expect anything different from trying it again. I like the "Einstein" quote about how insanity is attempting to try the same thing, and expect different results.

We can help you put together a good setup for a successful transfer, but you need at least $500. But remember: buy it, use it, resell it. This is just a project purchase, not a forever purchase.

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  #4  
09-25-2020, 04:54 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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Hmm, I've never seen the tracking thing appear when the OSD was turned off on any of the samsung VCRs I've used (including the SV-7000W), maybe it's something on the NTSC models. One neat thing about the newer Samsung VCRs compared to other newer VCRs is that they have adjustable sharpness, which pretty much all other brands dropped when functions got moved from the front panel to the OSD.
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  #5  
09-26-2020, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Hmm, I've never seen the tracking thing appear when the OSD was turned off on any of the samsung VCRs I've used (including the SV-7000W), maybe it's something on the NTSC models. One neat thing about the newer Samsung VCRs compared to other newer VCRs is that they have adjustable sharpness, which pretty much all other brands dropped when functions got moved from the front panel to the OSD.
The problem is on the SV-5000W and the DVD-V1000. I've been soured on the Samsung worldwide decks for many years, over a decade now.

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  #6  
09-30-2020, 10:15 PM
bzowk bzowk is offline
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Thanks Guys -

I went ahead and started with what I had to see what quality I could achieve. Some tapes are good - other really bad. Biggest factor so far seems the speed it was recorded at and if it was a previously used tape (many were.)

One more question if I may, please. After reading numerous posts, I decided to use a specific set of filters which I adjust per video. As with the tapes, some work well and others not a huge difference. Below is a frame with the original on the left and filters applied on the right. You can tell a difference, but not all changes are positive ones. Any suggestions for what I could do differently to improve the image a bit more?

Filters with settings & order are in 2nd screenshot below...

Note: Not using super temporary cleaner simply because when enabled the preview frame wasn't the same as the original - it would always skip ahead. Don't know if by design, so using an alternative.

Thanks!


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2020-09-30 164956.jpg (30.0 KB, 9 downloads)
File Type: jpg Screenshot 2020-09-30 165010.jpg (49.5 KB, 9 downloads)
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  #7  
10-01-2020, 05:48 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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A budget way of doing a VHS transfer, is not good to start with, if you want to do a good job, expect to have some obstacles that way.
Some "goodluck" is needed, starting with a good VCR, or also a good passtrough device, after these things, you are quiet good on track, and you will have succes with a greater scala of capture devices. capturing from component video would be your best choice, (if you really have that connection available, composite decoding of vcr's isn't that good genrally....
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  #8  
10-01-2020, 08:51 AM
bzowk bzowk is offline
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Yes - Thank you. Trying to find better equipment, but in meantime am at least using the component connection. Thanks
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  #9  
10-01-2020, 06:01 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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Well i noticed it only at the end of my post, but capturing from component is already great ! (that's what i call good luck!) i do this with my Panasonic ES35V, and capturing with the Intensity Shuttle from BMD and switch the ES35V to progressive mode for the component video out, which is not the default setting, because default it outputs RGB, RGB1 is default, before switching to component-YUV i have to switch to "video with component" (because the RGB setting blocks the progressive mode) with this setup i have the best results here, no TBC needed, and no dropped frames detected, I do use ProRes codec to capture which helps a lot against dropping frames, Using ProRes422 LT, which is fine for VHS resolution.
I hope you can play VHS in progressive mode over the component output, sometimes component is only used for the DVD part/player, and if you had a HDMI output, (which you don't) component progressive out would be disabled.
So try & see what the progressive mode will do for you, if your software can capture in progressive mode, that is.... then it would save you some work in post...

edit> just reading the manual of your combo, in the menu > video-output < should be set to component, (not RGB) and in stop mode you can press the > P.Scan button < on the frontpanel to toggle progressive/interlaced mode.
the Samsung DVD-VR320 looks like a great transfer machine for this ! i hope it's in a good condition, and the PC hardware/OS is also up to that. look no further

Last edited by Eric-Jan; 10-01-2020 at 06:26 PM.
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  #10  
10-01-2020, 07:27 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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The VCR seems to send everything through the internal digitizer, so you shouldn't have issues with frame drops on the PC end, but I don't know how good the A/D chip and digital parts of the VCR works (Techwell/Renesas TW9909 and a LSI logic system/video encoder chip). I don't think it has the line-TBC/horizontal wiggle correction that the panasonic one has (which is essentially a DMR-ES15 with a mid 2000s VCR bolted on). This does also mean that if you were to go for the super budget option of cheaper VCR + panasonic DVR for capture you would need a different VCR as the one you have already digitizes and recreates the video which prevents the panasonic DVR from doing it's magic.

I would not suggest using progressive mode, the deinterlacers in the VCR/DVD-recorders are pretty primitive 2005 technology, would rather suggest doing that in post with avisynth or other tools.
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  #11  
10-02-2020, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
The VCR seems to send everything through the internal digitizer, so you shouldn't have issues with frame drops on the PC end, but I don't know how good the A/D chip and digital parts of the VCR works (Techwell/Renesas TW9909 and a LSI logic system/video encoder chip). I don't think it has the line-TBC/horizontal wiggle correction that the panasonic one has (which is essentially a DMR-ES15 with a mid 2000s VCR bolted on). This does also mean that if you were to go for the super budget option of cheaper VCR + panasonic DVR for capture you would need a different VCR as the one you have already digitizes and recreates the video which prevents the panasonic DVR from doing it's magic.
I would not suggest using progressive mode, the deinterlacers in the VCR/DVD-recorders are pretty primitive 2005 technology, would rather suggest doing that in post with avisynth or other tools.
Consumer VCRs are a mess for quality, combo units are worse.

You almost never want to use a DVD combo recorder with component out for VHS capture. You will lose excessive quality. Most consumer combo units pass the VCR signal internally via composite, not Y/C (s-video). It's cheaper. Component adds another A>D>A, usually with forced upscale or deinterlacing (at least in NTSC, less common force in PAL).

Even the Panasonic (ES10/ES15) is not entirely a true line TBC, and it only has a standard DVD recorder frame sync (not frame sync TBC).

An ideal low-budget setup would be the non-TBC JVC S-VHS VCRs (3800, etc), the ES10/15, a good SD capture card (ATI 600 USB, etc), and luck/prayer. That's not an ideal setup, but one with many corners cut. There will be a fail rate. And some tapes cannot work. No retail tapes or nth gen tapes, for example. But if you have SP home recordings in perfect condition, sometimes, maybe, it will passably suffice. Adding a DVK to the mix, so ES10/15+DVK, would make it about 99% as effective as line+frame TBC, though still with negative effects of the ES10/15 (posterization, aggressive NR even when "off", PAL raised luma values).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bzowk View Post
Filters with settings & order are in 2nd screenshot below...
Don't cross post.
I answered this on your other post: Better filtering options for VirtualDub?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bzowk View Post
- Samsung DVD-VR320 VCR (Connects to capture card via Component / RCA cables)
component R/G/B 3x cables?
or composite single Y cable?

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  #12  
10-03-2020, 04:09 AM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Consumer VCRs are a mess for quality, combo units are worse.

You almost never want to use a DVD combo recorder with component out for VHS capture. You will lose excessive quality. Most consumer combo units pass the VCR signal internally via composite, not Y/C (s-video). It's cheaper. Component adds another A>D>A, usually with forced upscale or deinterlacing (at least in NTSC, less common force in PAL).
That is BS, you should not make up things like that, even with cheap equipment (like a Vestel dvdrecorder) component gives better results then s-video or composite, with the correct settings. the ES35V does a good job, good de-interlacing, when you view this on LCD/TFT you also see the diffence.... and saves time in post, or to figure out, how to de-interlace the right way. component is always better, this is a fact, it's the analog version of HDMI.
If you have the option to use component, it's even better to use this for video transfer, because HDMI does not work fine due to "handshake" and HDCP, which is active most of the time, Macrovision or orther "dirt" has no effect with component in progressive mode,(it's skipped because you don't use composite coding) only.... the capture device and software should support progressive mode, which is not always the case.

Last edited by Eric-Jan; 10-03-2020 at 04:45 AM.
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  #13  
10-03-2020, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric-Jan View Post
That is BS,... component gives better results then s-video or composite, with the correct settings. the ES35V does a good job, good de-interlacing,
- There are no "settings" for component output. It's binary, either used or not.
- Deinterlacing is bad, the end.
- It adds another A>D>A conversion, which may ruin any further chances of improving quality.

Given all this, I fail to see how component is "better" than unprocessed Y/C from the tape.

I want to see samples of your ES35V, both s-video and component.

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  #14  
10-03-2020, 12:32 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
How are you hooking it up? The manual would suggest component output only works for DVD on that VCR.
hodgey:

Can't find that in the manual i downloaded, which download you have, and which page ?

bzowk:

pages 37 & 38 of your Samsung manual,(download i've got) for setting component and progressive mode,(attached photo's) if you did not already so. You should first try to capture with default settings, so no filters while capturing in the first place.
Using my Intensity Shuttle i leave most in default, only audio is way to loud with me, so that's adjusted, color correction i do in post, you should not do that while capturing, because this can change with different recordings or source material.

Also you should check if there are any filters switched on or off in the menu settings of your Samsung combo,
on or off, you might not like the effect of it, or would not be desireable, because it will enhance, or counteract what you are doing in post.
Try to find the frame rate that is used in progressive mode, in the combo menu, if you did not checked this before, this should match the capture setting, ofcourse.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2020-10-03 at 19.25.56.jpg (48.3 KB, 3 downloads)
File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2020-10-03 at 19.27.07.jpg (141.3 KB, 2 downloads)

Last edited by Eric-Jan; 10-03-2020 at 01:16 PM.
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  #15  
10-03-2020, 02:01 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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Here it says it's DVD only, but yeah the manual is a bit unclear, so I'm not sure. I think adjustable filtering is something mostly confined to the Panasonic combos.

Component can carry higher quality than Y/C if all else is equal, though as VHS is natively Y/C on tape, that's only relevant when grabbing output from something that has digitized the video, like a DVR or similar. (DVRs like the ES35 and possibly the samsung here function as a DVD-recorder permanently hooked up to a vcr via composite) In the digital stage in a DVR or TBC or similar will usually be in component form, as that's what analog to digital video decoders normally output. So, going back from digital -> component involves less conversion than digital -> Y/C (of course if you can grab video digitally from HDMI or SDI you avoid the extra D/A -> A/D step entirely.) Even the in-VCR TBCs on panasonic/JVC etc actually decode the chroma to digital component form, though other than on some broadcast decks it's output back to s-video as I don't think a component decoder would be able to handle an unstable component signal, and the prosumer VCRs don't have enough memory to buffer full frames and output a completely re-created stable signal.

Of course this is if all else is equal which isn't always true in practive. It's possible the device will do different things with the video depending on the output, and I think for NTSC, many DVRs can only output deinterlaced progressive scan video over the component, which makes S-Video preferable since S-Video will always be 480i or 576i. Copy protection is another thing, component is more limited with types of copy protection supported, so if the device puts copy protection on the signal it may cause issues capturing, or alternatively, as noted with the ES35 it may be a way to get around it for some setups.

Anyway, we're getting a bit off topic here.
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  #16  
10-03-2020, 02:28 PM
Eric-Jan Eric-Jan is offline
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For getting best capture results, where not getting off-topic
the manual that you found is the service manual, and has the FEX extension, now i also found the NTSC (User) version of the Samsung manual which also does not mention "DVD only" both PAL and NTSC manuals even don't mention any resolution specs, only 240 lines are mentioned, one website mentioned that this model can playback S-VHS, which could be a dis-advantage for play-back of bad recordings/tapes, but the build-in vcr display would indicate this, if this is an issue.
(btw. what i thought is, that component video input is needed for the MPEG2(DVD) encoder, because component video is still analog.)

Only question for the OP is: did you really used the component connections already or just the composite connections on the back of the combo: red,green,blue, or the yellow, red, white ones.... ?
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