Has anyone tried AJA FS1 for 8mm capture?

[Gizmosgadget]

I just started the process of capturing my 250+ 8mm tapes and I think I might have an ideal setup. Not cheap, but holy smokes does it work well. I've paired a EVO-9720 (s-video output) with the AJA FS1 and run the SDI signal into a decklink SDI 4K and the final output is very impressive. No dropped frames yet after about 20 tapes. My oldest tape is from 1985, and while it does have some dropouts on the tape, the FS1 hasn't skipped a beat. I'm using a CRT display from the FS1 (component output) to monitor the transfer. Once the video is transferred, I play the AVI file through the Decklink and into the FS1 which feeds the CRT. The AVI is practically indistinguishable from the original tape. The final files are uncompressed AVI at 10bit. I know it's overkill but I only want to do this once and HD prices are pretty decent.

If I had to rate my 30+ year old tapes I'd give most of them a 9/10. There is very little dropout and I think that might have something to do with our dry climate here in Northern Canada.

I was just wondering if anyone else has tried the FS1 for their digitizing projects. I would imagine you could get great results from a Digital 8 camera if you fed the s-video output from it. I haven't tried digitizing my VHS or Betamax tapes yet so I don't know how those decks will fare. In the end, it may come down to the quality of the playback deck that determines whether or not this setup will work.

[latreche34]

Why don't you just share some samples if it works well for you, I would not recommend transfering D8 over S-Video unless there is a good reason to do so.

[Gizmosgadget]

I'll get something uploaded. What is the issue with using the s-video output from a D8 camcorder? I should clarify I meant for analog tapes, not D8 tapes. Firewire would still be best for D8 tapes.

What files types to people typically post? Are AVI's acceptable?

[latreche34]

Hi8/V8 tapes should be captured via S-Video, DV/D8 tapes via firewire. few seconds lossless AVI should be fine as long as it is less than 99MB which is the limit of this forum.

[Davis]

I also use an Aja FS1 in my process of capturing. I have a Kramer 8x1 switcher for tape decks and run the S-Video out into the S-Video input of the Aja FS1. I take the component out of the FS1 and go into a Newtek VT5 system and capture uncompressed. I then do any editing and audio adjustments in the VT5 software and render the timeline to uncompressed AVI. I move that over to a faster PC by using a hard drive and render to MPEG2 and Author. I have had good success in doing this way and I don't think you could end up with any better video on a DVD or if you render to MPG4 for a jump drive. Now, if I had Digital 8, I would just capture direct and not be using the FS1. I would go out of the FS1 as SDI, but the VT5 system doesn't have SDI input. I seriously doubt you would see any difference if it did.

Marty

[aramkolt]

I've got an FS1 but haven't really done much testing with it yet. In my very limited testing, it didn't show the JVC VHS VCR blue screen correctly with the specific professional monitor I was using at the time. I later realized that the monitor is excessively picky as it expects broadcast grade signals (Videotek TVM series). I thought the AJA would have stabilized it to the point that it would tolerate it, but a not in this specific case anyway. The reason for using this monitor during capture is that it can display diagnostic info like audio levels, waveform monitor, and vectorscope all simultaneously - quite useful for making sure you aren't getting clipped levels at the time of transfer - See attached photo of what that looks like when it's working. Oddly, passthrough something as simple as the DVK100 will show the blue screen correctly on it, and that is considered to be a "weak" TBC. Granted, the DVK100 is going into the composite input and the signal coming off of the AJA was SDI. I assumed SDI being digital would mean it'd be relatively free of analog type jitter errors and be read similarly by all devices that can accept SDI inputs, but this is apparently not the case.

...So I would say my very limited testing indicates that the FS1 doesn't produce "as stable" of a digital signal as some of my other TBCs - or at least it didn't seem to jive as well with my specific monitor which could just be a rare hardware compatibility. There is a way to measure SDI signal jitter and it could just be that it is slightly above its threshold - that monitor can do that as well, I just didn't think to measure it at the time.

I have noticed sharpness can vary a lot with SDI capture devices which use slightly different Analog Devices chips, see my other attachment below showing two different component video to SDI converters that are being fed the same component signal even though they both use similar Analog Devices chips (which is what the FS1 uses for analog to digital as well as a lot of Blackmagic devices). Question is, does the FS1 give the more blurry result, or the sharper result, or where does it fall in the spectrum? Focus on her hair in that capture and you'll swear AI must have been used to enhance the original or something, but it wasn't. Neither of the devices below are from the FS1 just to be clear.

To use an old phrase that I don't get to use very often, CRT monitors will "hide a lot of sin" when it comes to video artifacts and blemishes so I don't know that I'd recommend monitoring with a CRT as you are capturing. Basic LCD should show you much better if there are artifacts and other defects present during digitization.

What I am saying is that "no dropped frames" and "can't tell the difference between the original and my copy on a CRT" doesn't quite tell you how it'll compare to other capture devices out there or if your capture could be significantly better.


Advantages of the FS1 are many compared to a lot of other TBCs:
-No surface mount caps or even any electrolytic caps outside of the power supplies, so relatively unlikely to fail
-Power supplies can actually be purchased brand new online from Digikey or Mouser for $25 or less if they go bad
-Easy to navigate menus and driverless web interface for fast setting changes.
-Can easly embed audio into SDI stream
-Can add audio delay if video isn't synced up
-Can upconvert (haven't tried to know if it's any good)
-Relatively plentiful quantities available
-Relatively small form factor
-All outputs active simultaneously, so you could capture the same source with multiple cards at once
-Capturing in SDI makes for the fewest analog to digital and back conversions in the chain as opposed to most TBCs that convert back to analog as they output.

My main tip for the FS1 would be to plug in both power supplies at once (even though it will run on just one) as they'll share the load and it'll generate a lot less concentration of heat in each individual power supply and they'll both last much longer.

I have something like 10 different models of TBC and probably more than that many capture cards that I'll eventually be comparing against each other. I'll post comprehensive findings since there doesn't seem to be a comparison with samples of each anywhere. The most devices I've seen compared at once using an identical input source was like 3 or 4. Hopefully that will put to rest some of the discussion in terms of how much difference in quality you can expect with different hardware chains and determining for yourself if hunting down vintage hardware (that may or may not still work) is significantly better than brand new products available on Amazon like the GV-USB2. I would have saved a lot of money and time knowing what I'll hopefully know by the end, so I do plan to share the knowledge. True, there are are solid recommendations here on what is known to work well, but it mostly focuses on methods that were available in the early 2000's without directly comparing to a lot of the newer options or show examples of how/why the newer capture methods are inferior.

[Gizmosgadget]

Thank you for the detailed reply. What TBC's are you using that are giving better results than the FS1? As I mentioned, the card I'm using is the BM SDI 4K. I do have the Decklink 4K Extreme 12G that I use on a separate system for color grading which might yield better results. I'll take your advice and hook up a more modern display and see how the image looks. Any thoughts one what I should be looking as far as artifacts?

I've tried both the DPS575 and X75 from Leitch (same internals as far as I know) and the S-video connection produce a slight but noticeable smearing of horizontal edges. The composite input is quite good. The limitation is the notch filter and the TBC can't both be used at the same time. The notch filter really cleans up dot craw and which probably works great for a live feed. With the TBC disabled however, it doesn't do much good for consumer video sources.

[latreche34]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davis

I also use an Aja FS1 in my process of capturing. I have a Kramer 8x1 switcher for tape decks and run the S-Video out into the S-Video input of the Aja FS1. I take the component out of the FS1 and go into a Newtek VT5 system and capture uncompressed.

You're using the Aja FS1 less efficiently, Get a SDI ingest card and use the SDI out of the FS1, Processing Y-C into component is a lossy step, You want Y-C to digital and out to computer. Don't seriously doubt it, there is a difference, it may not be obvious in pristine tapes but it's there.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

True, there are are solid recommendations here on what is known to work well, but it mostly focuses on methods that were available in the early 2000's without directly comparing to a lot of the newer options or show examples of how/why the newer capture methods are inferior.

Not accurate. These have been revisited over and over. "New" stuff is mostly just cheap garbage..

[aramkolt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizmosgadget

Thank you for the detailed reply. What TBC's are you using that are giving better results than the FS1? As I mentioned, the card I'm using is the BM SDI 4K. I do have the Decklink 4K Extreme 12G that I use on a separate system for color grading which might yield better results. I'll take your advice and hook up a more modern display and see how the image looks. Any thoughts one what I should be looking as far as artifacts?

I've tried both the DPS575 and X75 from Leitch (same internals as far as I know) and the S-video connection produce a slight but noticeable smearing of horizontal edges. The composite input is quite good. The limitation is the notch filter and the TBC can't both be used at the same time. The notch filter really cleans up dot craw and which probably works great for a live feed. With the TBC disabled however, it doesn't do much good for consumer video sources.

I can't say that there's a "better" TBC that I've used since I haven't really done much of the testing - I'm more in the hardware acquisition phase. The limited test I did just showed that the SDI signal out of the AJA wasn't as stable as some other analog to SDI converters as it wouldn't display on my "picky" TVM monitor which is expecting broadcast grade/spec signals. That being said, I didn't do any captures with it as of yet that I could really look at how the picture quality compares just yet.

I agree with Latreche34 that you should capture the SDI output from the FS1 since that's just one single digital to analog conversion step in your chain. Every digital to analog conversion adds the possibility for artifacts and conversion losses. The FS1 itself is basically your digital to analog capture card, you are just using an SDI capture card to capture its output signal which is already digital.

I do have the DPS475 I'll be testing as well, but also haven't done much testing with it. I have heard that the filter and TBC can't be used at the same time, but I'm not super familiar with notch vs comb and why you'd want to use one over the other. The solution I've heard is to use two in series, but that gets expensive, and takes up even more space. The extra analog to digital conversions there probably also aren't helping either.

In the test comparison I posted above the component signal that is feeding both of the analog to SDI converters is from a ForA FA-310 which was released in 1989. All I did to it was recap the power supply and replace the original noisy fans, but it was actually working fine prior to the recap as well - I had just read a couple posts that there could be some horizontal line noise caused by power supply caps as a sort of common and easy to fix problem. Input to that was S-Video from a JVC SVHS player with line TBC turned on. Interestingly, there's a jumper inside the FA-310 that'll allow you to use comb or notch filtering specifically, but by default it is set to "auto" and somehow decides to pick one or the other internally. I'm not saying it is better than the AJA, but it did allow a standard Blackmagic "Analog to SDI converter" to display a stable picture via SDI, even on my picky monitor. Those are sort of known not to like unstable signals, so I think it proves that the ForA does a good job with stabilization at least.

If your capture card is displaying a solid image, there's no incompatibility there, so I wouldn't worry that anything is wrong with your capture chain.

I would like to see some of your captured frames though as screenshots or short video samples to see the sort of results you are getting - maybe also do the same tests capturing directly from the SDI out of the AJA.

[aramkolt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

Not accurate. These have been revisited over and over. "New" stuff is mostly just cheap garbage..

This is the kiiiiiiiind of thing I'm talking about where there isn't a direct comparison shown. Take your ideal AIW setup and post a comparison against the GV-USB2 to show how the GV-USB2 is inferior to it. Both are virtualdub compatible, so that's really the only variable you should change in your test.

It doesn't exactly matter if you do the comparison, I'll eventually do that comparison myself and post as I have both and haven't gotten to the testing phase of 15 or so capture cards I've been accumulating. Still kind of have to design the stress tests themselves and need to source some tapes with significant errors that typically capture poorly. Plan is to use VHS tapes, pattern generators, blue screens, static, etc to see how they capture differently on identical source material.

Agree that MOST modern stuff is garbage, but it's usually the super cheap items that are mass produced to target the $20 or less market. I think there likely are some solid options (GV-USB2 being just one contender) that will produce equal or possibly superior captures to the AIW cards (with bonus of working on modern Windows machines), but again, I haven't done my own testing to prove it yet.

Could also be that there's an SDI conversion pathway that also beats AIW, which I'll also be testing.

Ideally what I'll do is have some sort of a poll where the captures are unlabeled so that people can rank what actually looks best without knowing what card produced what to avoid any bias.

[Davis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

You're using the Aja FS1 less efficiently, Get a SDI ingest card and use the SDI out of the FS1, Processing Y-C into component is a lossy step, You want Y-C to digital and out to computer. Don't seriously doubt it, there is a difference, it may not be obvious in pristine tapes but it's there.

I agree, that would be the ultimate way to do it. I'm not sure I have another slot to put one in the PC. Actually, Newtek made a SDI card for the VT5 system. I've never owned one. If I can find one on eBay, that would be the way to go since I know it should integrate with all the other software and hardware without a problem. If I can find one, I think I'll buy it. I really do think the FS1 does a great job. I think where you might see a difference with the SDI out of the FS1 would be if you are having to capture crappy 6 hour mode recordings, which of course happens. The VT5 has been a great system for capturing and doing this type of work.

Thanks,
Marty

[Gizmosgadget]

Quote:

Originally Posted by aramkolt

I can't say that there's a "better" TBC that I've used since I haven't really done much of the testing - I'm more in the hardware acquisition phase. The limited test I did just showed that the SDI signal out of the AJA wasn't as stable as some other analog to SDI converters as it wouldn't display on my "picky" TVM monitor which is expecting broadcast grade/spec signals. That being said, I didn't do any captures with it as of yet that I could really look at how the picture quality compares just yet.

I agree with Latreche34 that you should capture the SDI output from the FS1 since that's just one single digital to analog conversion step in your chain. Every digital to analog conversion adds the possibility for artifacts and conversion losses. The FS1 itself is basically your digital to analog capture card, you are just using an SDI capture card to capture its output signal which is already digital.

I do have the DPS475 I'll be testing as well, but also haven't done much testing with it. I have heard that the filter and TBC can't be used at the same time, but I'm not super familiar with notch vs comb and why you'd want to use one over the other. The solution I've heard is to use two in series, but that gets expensive, and takes up even more space. The extra analog to digital conversions there probably also aren't helping either.

In the test comparison I posted above the component signal that is feeding both of the analog to SDI converters is from a ForA FA-310 which was released in 1989. All I did to it was recap the power supply and replace the original noisy fans, but it was actually working fine prior to the recap as well - I had just read a couple posts that there could be some horizontal line noise caused by power supply caps as a sort of common and easy to fix problem. Input to that was S-Video from a JVC SVHS player with line TBC turned on. Interestingly, there's a jumper inside the FA-310 that'll allow you to use comb or notch filtering specifically, but by default it is set to "auto" and somehow decides to pick one or the other internally. I'm not saying it is better than the AJA, but it did allow a standard Blackmagic "Analog to SDI converter" to display a stable picture via SDI, even on my picky monitor. Those are sort of known not to like unstable signals, so I think it proves that the ForA does a good job with stabilization at least.

If your capture card is displaying a solid image, there's no incompatibility there, so I wouldn't worry that anything is wrong with your capture chain.

I would like to see some of your captured frames though as screenshots or short video samples to see the sort of results you are getting - maybe also do the same tests capturing directly from the SDI out of the AJA.

All of my captures are SDI from the AJA. I'm trying to keep the number of conversions to a minimum. As for the notch filter on the DPS575, it makes a huge difference to a live composite signal. It cleans up moire and dot crawl almost completely which is something that S-video does inherently due to Y/C being separate from the get go. You just can't use the TBC. Using the S-Video input doesn't require a notch filter and the TBC is on by default. However, there is some weird edge artifacting going on. I'm going to post some images this weekend once I have some time off so it'll give you an idea.

Now, I do have the Leitch X75 which is cosmetically different than the DPS575 but has the same internal processing as far as I know. I'm going to try using the notch filter in the X75 and then feed that into the DPS575 which will handle TBC duties. Should be interesting. I'll post results on the weekend. Great discussion by the way. Love the chat.

[Davis]

I did a little research tonight and the Newtek SDI expansion that used to be on the market was not just a simple addon card. It replaced the VT card with a VTPro card and also added an expansion interface box with all the connections for 8 inputs of SDI. That's out of the question now to find all of that hardware. I think a lot of it got traded in when people upgraded to Tricasters since there was a trade-up deal. So, at this point, the best and least expensive thing I could do would be to get an SDI capture card, put in a different PC I have, and download the free Davinci Resolve to do what simple cleanup and editing needs to be done. That PC already has my encoding and authoring software on it and is a fast machine. I would just have to learn Davinci with a little different process. The free version should do what I would need to do. Something to think about. Your thoughts?

[latreche34]

You don't need a PCIe card, A SDI to USB3 box works fine, I have the BM UltraStudio SDI and works perfectly, USB 3 has enough bandwidth for lossless AVI up to 10bit.

[Gizmosgadget]

I was going to upload some pics from the DPS575/X75 but there was a thread on this a number of years ago with some excellent examples that highlight the weaknesses of this unit. I'll see what I can do with the FS1. Can we upload .tga files? That's the only format that Media Express uses for saving stills.

https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vid...dps575-vs.html

[Davis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

You don't need a PCIe card, A SDI to USB3 box works fine, I have the BM UltraStudio SDI and works perfectly, USB 3 has enough bandwidth for lossless AVI up to 10bit.

Being an old PC to run the Newtek VT5 software and hardware, there isn't a USB3 connection on it. I never did find the device you are using, maybe it's not made now. I did find one though that has USB out. It is on my new PC, so that would work without a problem, still have to change and start using Davinci software. I think it would work fine, just have to learn and get used to it. The good thing is that capture, editing, rendering, and authoring would all be on the same PC, no more having to move files from one PC to another.

I don't think the VT5 capture software would see the SDI even putting in a PCIe card. Almost finished with the project I'm working on so I don't want to change anything until I'm done with that.

Thanks,
Marty

[BW37]

Quote:

Originally Posted by latreche34

You don't need a PCIe card, A SDI to USB3 box works fine, I have the BM UltraStudio SDI and works perfectly, USB 3 has enough bandwidth for lossless AVI up to 10bit.

What exact model of the BM Ultrastudio SDI are you using? I can only find Thunderbolt out devices, not USB-3 out. I seem to be missing something. Most of the other SDI to USB-3 devices won’t output a proper interlaced format.

Thanks,
BW

[Gizmosgadget]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BW37

What exact model of the BM Ultrastudio SDI are you using? I can only find Thunderbolt out devices, not USB-3 out. I seem to be missing something. Most of the other SDI to USB-3 devices won’t output a proper interlaced format.

Thanks,
BW

Do you have spare PCI slot? You can pick up Decklink SDI cards on Ebay fairly cheap now days. It's where I got mine. A decklink mini recorder HD is under $50 US$.

[BW37]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gizmosgadget

Do you have spare PCI slot? You can pick up Decklink SDI cards on Ebay fairly cheap now days. It's where I got mine. A decklink mini recorder HD is under $50 US$.

Understood. I have an older, similar AJA card but am looking for a USB solution that will let me try the BM capture software and be more portable, even add a laptop capture option.

Thanks,
BW