Quantcast JVC HR-S7500EK PAL model any good for playing tapes? - digitalFAQ Forum
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  #1  
06-26-2012, 01:40 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Do you know if this is any good, was checking your VCR list, and this wasnīt listed, but the U.S model was.


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  #2  
06-26-2012, 01:44 AM
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Nope.
No TBC. See http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...nuals-jvc.html

Pass on this model. Look for 7600 or newer in the 7000s PAL series.

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  #3  
06-26-2012, 02:22 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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What about the AG-7650?

I saw this one, and it looks pretty much like one of the pro machines that a place i get old material from uses.

So i thought that this most be a very good machine, but when i read about it here it seems like itīs only good on Professional Recorded VHS, and on normal Camcorded and movies etc, it will be like a normal VCR thatīs outperformed by high quality consumer VCRs.

Is this true?

Thanks!
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  #4  
06-26-2012, 02:23 AM
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It's useless to home users or anybody working from consumer tapes.
Don't get it. It's a boat anchor.

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  #5  
06-26-2012, 10:39 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Do you know anything about the Philips S-VHS video vr969?

with the S7500Ek, did you just decline it cause of the TBC?
Cause i will be using a Toshiba DVDs Line-TBC, as i donīt like that VCR forces DNR (and they are also much more expensive).
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  #6  
06-26-2012, 07:02 PM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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you really want a VCR that has a TBC built in regardless of what other devices you are using in the workflow.

some Philips VCR's are JVC clones and have TBC - IIRC the VR1000 has the TBC
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  #7  
06-27-2012, 01:44 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Can you explain why, as i will turn it off cause the TBC will get on with DNR, and i really donīt like DNR, as it will probaby remove details more or less, especially compared to manual denoising;S
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  #8  
06-27-2012, 02:09 AM
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DNR doesn't really remove details -- it removes noise. The problem is that a lot of people mistakenly consider grain and errant noise to be the "detail" of the picture. It's an optical illusion, however. The TBC/DNR also removes chroma noise, which is the ugly red/blue shimmering hazy mess that infests the image on VHS-based formats. Finally, the TBC syncs the timing of each line, making the picture not "wiggle" in any way, which is easily seen on straight vertical lines.

Without a TBC in the deck, which is almost always married to some sort of DNR processing (whether labeled or not), you're really only getting low-end consumer-grade quality.

You simply cannot "manually" (use software methods) to remove most of the errors resolved by an in-VCR line TBC. By the time those errors are digitized, it's too late. They're now part of the image, instead of merely being part of the signal.

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  #9  
06-27-2012, 02:15 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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But thatīs why i will let the signal go passthrough a DVD with Line TBC;S

And with the DNR, yeah i am sure that it does a good job and all that, but i mean, isnīt it better to manually do it;S?
Chroma noise however is more problematic though;S

I donīt thin this has TBC , but it does seem to have PC edit stuff, not sure if itīs of any use though,
http://viewitem.eim.ebay.se/PHILIPS-...652511187/item

Last edited by Zerowalker; 06-27-2012 at 02:33 AM.
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  #10  
06-27-2012, 02:43 AM
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DVD recorders don't really have the same sort of TBC. In fact, most of them have basic frame sync abilities, not TBC, and not DNR.
Give this a read: What is a TBC? Time Base Correction for Videotapes

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  #11  
06-27-2012, 02:44 AM
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Yes i know, the one i have bought is confirmed by sanlyn (Videohelp), to have a good Line-TBC

Itīs Toshiba D-R3 if i remember correctly
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  #12  
06-27-2012, 06:06 AM
Jarvis Jarvis is offline
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I have seen much info on VH posted by Sanlyn, Orsetto and others about DVD recorders with line TBC abilities, however -

1) The shorter the capture chain the better. Why insert another device before your capture card when your VCR can already perform the same filtering, and is 100% proven to do it - no but's or if's. The exception here is models that cure tearing ie. ES10 but that would be used only when needed.

2) Some of these DVD recorders have AGC or levels issues, among other things. I don't know if your particular model does but as with everything, there is a trade-off somewhere. At least with the common JVC or Panasonic TBCs, they've been thoroughly tested and you know what to expect. I can't say the same for these particular devices.

Also, the aggressiveness of Digipure NR is totally exaggerated IMO. Screenshots are not good examples, you really have to see it in action to understand. From my experience, it does what it's supposed to do - remove the crap from your tapes. You may be able to get similar results in software, but maybe not. And to get any results at all you'll have to learn how to do it, and that's yet another step between capture and output. Without filtering you'll have a hard time encoding to any delivery format, so ask yourself - is it really worth the hassle for a neglible loss in detail?

As I said, there are always trade-offs in this work. At least with the JVC, you will have a cleaner, more stable image and less work to do in the long run. It makes little sense to me to capture all the gunk and spend ages removing it from all my tapes in software, when I can just have the VCR remove it during capture for a satisfying result. It's not perfect, but neither is anything else of the sort.
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  #13  
06-27-2012, 06:11 AM
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Very true, i do want to have the shortest chain possible, as i know there is always a trade off, of some sort.
But i have really backed off cause of the DNR, the JVC VCRs was really smoothing (blurring) the image to much when i looked at it, and i donīt want it to blur the picture, i understand that itīs impossible to remove noise without lose some details more or less, but i donīt want it to blur.

Do you know of any samples where a VCR har the DNR off, and on so i can see differences?
As i have only seen images.
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  #14  
06-27-2012, 06:31 AM
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The JVC VCRs don't really blur anything, outside of some very unusual conditions where the source VHS tape is already excessively blurry (often due to nth generation copying). Be sure not to compare it to another VCR to decide if it's blurry, as some VCRs (like the Panasonics) "enhance" the image to "add detail", even though the sharpness controls appear to be at a unity setting.

Beyond that, the TBC/DNR doesn't do any of the supposed "blurring" that gets discussed. That falls on the picture settings, which can be turned to EDIT mode, disabling intra-frame NR. However, NORM (or AUTO if using the not-suggested Calibration feature) removes a lot of signal junk.

The TBC/DNR is primarily inter-frame NR in a tiny (3-frame?) window, which is an effective way to average out single-frame noise. If this was too strong, you'd end up with "mouse trails" (temporal blurring), but that never happens. In fact, the Panasonic hardware is the one that exhibits temporal blurring, especially from the DVD recorders. The S-VHS decks are guilty of it, too, on certain tapes. The Panasonic "TBCs" are also TBC/DNR (even if not advertised as such), and are more aggressive, and that's not always a good thing.

The TBC/DNR primarily attacks horizontal jitter (bad sync) and chroma noise.

The reason the JVC TBC fails on tearing is because it's not as aggressive as the Panasonic hardware.

MPEG doesn't compress well when it's full of detail anyway, whether that's actual image details, or just noise. H.264 smooths it out. You have to consider the big picture here. Don't needlessly over-analyze the capturing hardware. It's important, yes, definitely, but don't go into overkill mode. Unless you're planning to long-term store as lossless or uncompressed video, this is a needless nitpick.

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  #15  
06-27-2012, 06:41 AM
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Ah okaey, seems like i will have to go through and try getting one of those recommended JVCs, though they are Sickly epxpensive, so will have to wait up for a bargain.

But as long as it doesnīt cause Temporal blurring which is the most common in denoising itīs probably good.

And well, i will save the ones that are old recordings that are one of a kind in a Lossless format.

Was just lookoing at the VCR Buying guide, and from my understanding of it, there is no PAL version of the High End VCRs with TBC;S
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  #16  
06-27-2012, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerowalker View Post
there is no PAL version of the High End VCRs with TBC;S
Sure there are!

HR-S7600, 7700, 7800, 7900, 7955, 7965
HR-S9600, 9800
SR-V10E

And those are just ones I can quote off the top of my head. Read through that entire thread, not just the first post. There's a lot of information there regarding all of the available models of JVC S-VHS VCRs with desired features.

I have a high-end JVC PAL S-VHS VCR about 4 feet from my face, where I'm sitting this very moment.

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  #17  
06-27-2012, 06:59 AM
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The degree of blurring/smoothing also depends on the JVC's picture modes ie. Auto/Norm, Edit, Soft, Sharp.

Switching into Edit mode will turn off a different set of filters, which will tame the NR but also introduce some high-freq noise. Depending on the quality of the tape it may look better, or it may look worse. Edge enhancement can also be activated via the R3 setting, and can improve sharpness but can cause artifacts as well; I personally don't use it, but it could be useful on some tapes. Don't use it on scenes with fast motion.

Basically, a JVC can be "tuned" via its settings to give you the same unfiltered image as other VCRs. What makes them special is that they have these effective filters, but you can't just use the same settings on every tape and expect best results. They're all different tools and all have their place depending on the job (tape).

The hard truth is that VHS tapes are soft and noisy, you can't improve their sharpness without adding more noise or artifacts, and you can't clean them without losing some detail. It's the same deal whether you process in hardware or software.
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  #18  
06-27-2012, 06:59 AM
Zerowalker Zerowalker is offline
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Oh;O

Which have the features you recommend?
EDIT mode all that stuff?
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  #19  
06-27-2012, 07:32 AM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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good VCR's dont have to be expensive if you are savy.
i have bought several nice JVC TBC decks for under $100 each
i even got a D-VHS deck for free.
alot of people have these kicking around and have no idea just what they own.
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  #20  
06-27-2012, 07:35 AM
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True that, but i canīt really find good JVC TBC decks on the PAL market, the NTSC market is much wider;S
Currently i only find s7600ek for 200gbp i think, and thatīs a bit to pricy for me;S
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